<houkime>
wiki is usually used for very long sofisticated instructions in addition to CONTRIBUTING.md
<houkime>
CONTRIBUTING.md considered a required minimum
<houkime>
because it is a file in the repo you can propose changes to it like to any other file
<houkime>
right now ther's no such file so one needs to create it
<Joerg-Neo900>
chomwitt: yes, the kicad VM s still the reference kicad release for the prokect
<houkime>
btw once we have a wiki server running (which we can have any time) I can redirect a repo wiki link to neo900.org wiki
<chomwitt>
so wikipage is not part of the repo ?
<chomwitt>
Joerg-Neo900: thanks
<houkime>
wikipage can be a part of the repo and may be a separate thing which is linked via redirection
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<houkime>
chomwitt: check the kicad version there. You might have problems if it is not 5
<chomwitt>
houkime: ok. i'm not a hardware person , put curious and intrigued like you from the educational aspects of inspecting a so complex project.
<chomwitt>
houkime: well Contribute.md should have valid info. Readme.md says get the sources from Joerg-Neo900 .ok . and then ? according to Joerg-Neo900 he must install the kicad VM
<chomwitt>
but where is the kicadVM ?
<houkime>
chomwitt: ignore joerg, he is not working with files right now
<houkime>
chomwitt: generally, right now a stable release of kicad5 should be ok
<houkime>
chomwitt: and i don't see a single reason to make contributor to downgrade
<chomwitt>
houkime: but ..we say .. go to Joerg-Neo900 to get the updated schematics.. , but dont listen to how we'll work with them? couldnt a diff in what version of kicad is used create issues?
* chomwitt
scratch his head..
<houkime>
chomwitt: there is no contradiction The schematics was bugfixed and upgraded to kicad5 by me
<houkime>
chomwitt: you need joerg to access a gitserver
<houkime>
chomwitt: then you checkout my crispy branch and rock-n-roll
<chomwitt>
houkime: didnt know that
<chomwitt>
houkime: if u have access to the gitserver why you cant give access to it ?
* Oksana
shrugs and hopes that "bugfixed and upgraded to kicad5": 1) didn't take too much time; 2) will not make it difficult to edit the schematics, or manufacture the boards
<Oksana>
There is difference between being an admin and being a contributor, I guess.
<chomwitt>
Oksana: ok
* Oksana
's experience with git is limited to occasional glances at github, though
<chomwitt>
so Joerg-Neo900 is the admin and will create a git account with 'push' rights
<houkime>
chomwitt: i just have a write access to my branch. joerg makes decisions and atk manages access rights
<houkime>
atk is admin
<chomwitt>
houkime: so we assume that your branch is the one where work will be done from now on ?
<chomwitt>
a rhetorical question.. i just hoped that there would be blessing from all.. like in ceremonies.
<houkime>
Oksana: 1) It atually took a fair bit of time. 2) I believe what WAS there created much more difficulties. And downgrading to kicad4 now when kicad5 is out is an extra difficulty
<Oksana>
2) the difficulties were from "this was made in kicad4, kicad5 doesn't understand it well" or from "this isn't drawn right, the wires look nice but aren't actually connected properly"?
<Oksana>
As in, did upgrade to kicad5 create additional overhead (not that necessary, but preferred because kicad6 is out), or highlight existing problems which would have needed to be fixed anyway?
<houkime>
Oksana: 2) both. however mostly not like illusionary connections but grounds not sorted out between boards, sch pins and even pinnumbers not corresponding to actual fps and actual datasheets etc
<houkime>
tons of nasty stuff that made a sync between board and sch inpossible
<houkime>
*pincounts
<houkime>
important correction, sorry about that
<houkime>
i meant the total headcounts of pins
<houkime>
you see, for kicad to work as intended and bugs to be rare the proper sync between board and sch is very important and speeds up work
<houkime>
also for example for routing diffpairs there're naming rules for pins
<houkime>
otherwise kicad won't recognize them as diffpairs
<Oksana>
You lost me at diffpairs, but yes, real-time sync between schematics and board is important, as far as I can guess
<houkime>
oksana: if you have seen kicad working sessions you actually have schematics in the other window while working on the board and kicad finds and shows you in sch stuff you selected on board automatically
<houkime>
etc etc
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<houkime>
so actually even the situation when the board was kicad5 (since metacollin) and ach in kicad4 is very inconvenient
<houkime>
*sch
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<Oksana>
Okay... I installed kicad on my laptop, but didn't open it yet - it could be kicad6, for all I know
<houkime>
it is not kicad6 if it is not a devbuild
<houkime>
latest stable is 5
<houkime>
which is ok
<Oksana>
Okay, will likely be kicad5 then, good
<houkime>
6 is actually also ok. 4 is not
<houkime>
now, my branch is not master yet. also joerg doesn't want to open layout files yet.
<houkime>
so files from neo900.org are from master branch and they are for kicad4. which is autoupdatable and viewable but not relly representative
<houkime>
and they are old
<houkime>
to proceed surther to sth constructive you will need to ask Joerg and atk to give you an access
<houkime>
*further
* Oksana
nods, but also notes lack of time in schedule, for at least the next month or so
<houkime>
oksana: doesn't matter. I also lack it.
<houkime>
well, actually maybe changes were not so big. They were more of subtle-but-important. you can still get the idea from open docs while you wait but for actual work you need access.
<houkime>
I actually should compose some list of useful electronics resources to kickstart guys
<houkime>
and do more viseos about subsystems and stuff
<houkime>
so everything is as clear as it can be
<houkime>
it actually helps debugging also
<houkime>
chomwitt: Are you still writing the early version of contributing guide? Don't go into much details just yet, we will add them later.
<houkime>
joerg-neo900: will oksana with 7 preorders be allowed to have a read access to the gitserver?
<houkime>
chomwitt: my branch is called houkime/layout if you need a name
<Oksana>
houkime : 6 pre-orders, and that's not my last name ;-)
<houkime>
joerg-neo900: ok, 6 preorders. I think from any possible angle she has the right to have look even if she doesn't end up helping.
<houkime>
chomwitt: sorry i missed your question about my branch being the development focus. Yes it is a development focus, because it is the only branch progressing and it is gone veeery far
<chomwitt>
houkime: i cant ignore Joerg-Neo900 opinion 'the kicad VM s still the reference kicad release for the project'. i dont even know the guy or kicad.
<houkime>
chomwitt: you can consider this opinion but only as formal since following it for real will introduce too much problems.
<Oksana>
chomwitt : try both ways (kicad VM, and kicad5), in parallel, if you can?
<chomwitt>
but wouldnt be strange if a newcomer ,following a Contribution guide' , asks Joerg-Neo900 for git access but then the same guide stating 'dont pull his branch and dont listen to him' ?
* Oksana
shakes head and thinks that whyever metacollin switched board to kicad5, there better be a good reason for that
<houkime>
chomwitt: sorry. i didn't really mean ignoring joerg completely. joerg is a nice ceo. he knows a lot and he keeps things running. He just doesnt' work with files currently and thereby may suggest impractical things.
<chomwitt>
sorry.. 'a nice ceo' ... 'suggest impractical things' ??
* Oksana
hopes that PCB proceeds to manufacturing soon - because this kicad4-or-kicad5 stage may take up long enough time that kicad6 gets released into stable, which will not help any
<chomwitt>
you wont me to write a guide inviting people to a project where in their very first step will have a strange feeling like i do now.. (being in a battle or sth..)
<chomwitt>
..hey come to eat in the restaurant , dont bother that chef says that you shouldnt try the new recipies?
<chomwitt>
Joerg-Neo900: should step forward and be more clear i think. is he ok with a guide 1) get access from you 2) choose what repo to work on ?
<houkime>
chomwitt: my branch is not rogue or anything. It does disobey some of Joerg recommendations for practicality reasons and contribution ease.
<chomwitt>
houkime: i didnt even imply sth like that.
<chomwitt>
i just say that i feel ..uneasy.
<Oksana>
Well, as long as it's not KiCad nightly [it isn't] and everybody else can easily view/edit/manufacture from your files
<Oksana>
chomwitt : Understandable. I miss wpwrak, haven't seen him talking in months?
<chomwitt>
anyway i'have to sleep. i'd prefer Joerg-Neo900 to state his opinion for the Contribution guide .
<houkime>
oksana: I miss him too
<houkime>
oksana: it was always interesting to talk to him.
himcesjf_ is now known as him-cesjf
<houkime>
chomwitt: good night
<houkime>
oksana: it was kicad nightly at first, but now there's no reason for that.
<Oksana>
Why was there need for kicad nightly in the first place?
<houkime>
oksana: metacollin. Also to be fair the difference between 4 and 5 is drastical. 4is a slow buggy mess
<houkime>
oksana: and metacollin spoke about oval shapes that were not in kicad4
<Oksana>
Speed difference because of hardware graphics acceleration, or lack thereof?
<houkime>
oksana: graphical acceleration and ergonomics also
<houkime>
oksana: it is just way more convenient for various reasons
<houkime>
oksana: this whole situation reminds me of recent Linus Torvalds hurricane about users who shouldn't need to downgrade under no circumstances
<houkime>
And also reminds me of my familiar Arch system where "package which forces users to downgrade=dead package"
<Oksana>
houkime : Please, don't link youtube. Neither K-meleon [in my current configuration] nor MicroB [on my Nokia N900] can play its videos. And if it is about Linus Torvalds, then surely, it's also available on a better site?
<houkime>
oksana: btw does peertube work for you?
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<Oksana>
houkime : Checking... Doesn't seem to work in K-Meleon, should try to fool it with user agent sometimes...
<Oksana>
And I wish ircs:// links were common on the Internet, instead of leaving it to users to copy-paste names of server and channel manually
<Oksana>
Funny. If my ancient laptop is strong enough to run a VirtualBox, perhaps, I will have opportunity to try out kicad5 files in kicad4. Because bug-fixes should not break user...
<houkime>
why do you need a vm?
<Oksana>
To try out kicad4 VM?
<Oksana>
I understand that installing kicad5 and kicad4 on the same computer without VM is possibly possible, but I would try VM first.
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<houkime>
oksana: kicad5 files are not really readable by kicad4. not downgrade but upgrade is needed to allow reading just new kicad5 files so it sorts of ok. kicad5 itself can devour and autoupgrade kicad4 files.
<houkime>
technically it isn't breaking the user i wouldn't say.
<houkime>
oksana:need to sleep
<Oksana>
And if user, for whatever reason, doesn't wish to upgrade to kicad4? And yes, I am familiar with issue of "old version cannot read files generated by new version" - only in context of different software.
<Oksana>
Good night :-)
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* brolin_empey
wanted to ask houkime about using Vimeo.
<brolin_empey>
Oksana: You can use youtube-dl, which is a cross-platform Command-Line Interface Python application, to download a local copy of videos from YouTube and many other video sharing Web sites. You should be able to run youtube-dl on an N900 if you have a sufficiently new version of Python and any other dependencies.
<brolin_empey>
Also, I thought K-Meleon is a Windows application. Are you using Windows?
<brolin_empey>
Yes, apparently K-Meleon is only released for Windows.
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* enyc
meows
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<Joerg-Neo900>
a particular problem with switching toolset furing project runtime is: anythingchecked and validated in e.g. kicad4 has to be considered unknown-state and needs re-verification after you opened/coberted the project files to kicad5
<Joerg-Neo900>
simple made-up example: kicad4.1.6 has a bug in computational rounding, so the devel works around this by adding a 0.001mm constant to every footprint/layout distance ending in digit "5". Now some devels switch to kicad4.1.7 which has this bug fixed, while others don't. Good luck ever sorting this again after a dozen open+modify+save cyles done by 4 devels using different versions of kicad
<enyc>
Joerg-Neo900: makes sense, what does this mean in termso f versinos-of-toolage available at pcb-manufacturers/assemblers, though ... ?
<Joerg-Neo900>
so the project wide rule been: "we have a golden sample (see VM) kicad version, and everything neds to load and get verified on this golden version. Devels are somewhat free to use newer kicad versions (though they are discouraged to do so) but then need to check their work for correctness in golden version before distributing / pusjing"
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<Joerg-Neo900>
enyc: PCB houses will accept kicad4 generated Gerber just happily
<Joerg-Neo900>
afrer all Gerber isn't a kicad-'proprietary' format but rather a industry standard
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<Joerg-Neo900>
since our leyouters all have been keen to use kicad5 aka 'nightlies' so far, the plan been to switch the project to kicad5 officially as soon as (or shortly after) there's an official stable LTS kicad5 release. Then we'd have to do re-validation of schematics and footprints and whatnot only *once*
<enyc>
Joerg-Neo900: kicad 5.0.0 is officially released, but i have no idea how buggy it proves to be =)
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<Oksana>
brolin_empey : Yes, at Uni workplace I am using Windows. Thanks to IT, the only other choice is Mac - they don't offer Linux on their workstations, yet.
<Oksana>
>> "but then need to check their work for correctness in golden version before distributing / pushing" << So it's a good idea to see if kicad4 VM can open files from kicad5...
<Oksana>
Do not see anything about KiCAD LTS, though.
<brolin_empey>
Oksana: OK. I was not criticising your choice but I was surprised that you use Windows. I use Windows — actually, Windows NT — too because I prefer it as a desktop client platform, not because I am forced to use it.
<Oksana>
brolin_empey : I would consider Windows as an option if it didn't force me to frequently discard old computers and buy new ones (because old computer cannot run new Windows, and old Windows is too vulnerable to be connected to Internet). Maybe, ReactOS becomes useful some time in the future...
* Oksana
used to have Windows XP on laptop, and then got Linux to dual-boot on it, since XP lacks security bugfixes needed to connect to Internet
<brolin_empey>
Old computer cannot run new Windows? 0_o Windows 7 still runs on a Pentium II. Windows 8 still runs on a Pentium 4. I use Windows 10 for x86-64 on Core 2 computers from around 2008.
<Joerg-Neo900>
>>So it's a good idea to see if kicad4 VM can open files from kicad5...<< won't
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<Oksana>
brolin_empey : Old laptop, from 2007 or so. To be fair, it maybe could run Windows 10... If 4GB RAM are installed... But it would be about the limit: any RAM-hungry application (such as, web-browser) would make the whole system slow?
* Oksana
manages to bring Windows 7 workstation at Uni to terrible slowness sometimes, despite 16GB RAM installed
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<brolin_empey>
Oksana: Does your notebook computer from 2007 have an x86-64 CPU? 8 GiB of main memory seems to be the minimum for my use case. With only 4 GiB, Windows keeps wanting me to exit applications because it is low on memory. My Dell Latitude X1 model of notebook computer from 2005 with Pentium M CPU runs Windows 8.1 for x86-32 from 2013. I ran Windows 10 for x86-64 with only 2 GiB of main memory at work today on a Latte Panda x86 SBC.
<brolin_empey>
Oksana: Does said workstation run from an HDD? If yes then that is normal. HDDs are a major bottleneck. If you have never used a desktop/notebook computer running from an SSD then you may not realise how much the responsiveness is decreased by running a computer from an HDD.
<brolin_empey>
s/an SSD/an SSD or a RAM drive/
<Oksana>
brolin_empey : x64, if I remember correctly from the time when I installed Linux on it. | >>8GB...minimum<< And that's a good example of how Windows gladly places users between vulnerabilities or purchase of a new computer.
<Oksana>
brolin_empey : Yes, HDD on workstation (and laptop as well). I have heard terrible things about how SSD loses data quickly when powered off.
<brolin_empey>
“And that's a good example of how Windows gladly places users between vulnerabilities or purchase of a new computer.”
<brolin_empey>
What do you mean? My x86-64 desktop motherboard from 2007 officially supports up to 8 GiB of main memory and unofficially is said to support up to 16 GiB. I will test it with 16 GiB when the 16 GiB of RAM I ordered a month ago finally arrives.
<brolin_empey>
Much criticism of Microsoft comes from persons who are mistaken inclusive-or who do not understand business.
<Oksana>
I just mean that if your use-case happened to be with my old laptop (instead of your old desktop), then 4GB-officially-supported would not have been enough at all
<brolin_empey>
The amount of main memory officially supported by a model of computer is determined by the storage capacity of the RAM modules available at the time the computer design is tested/validated, not by Microsoft nor any other operating system developer. The Apple Macintosh SE/30 from 1989 unofficially supports up to 128 MiB of main memory. The actual maximum amount of main memory often increases after the computer is released when larger storage capacities of
<brolin_empey>
compatible RAM modules become available, such as 16-MiB 30-pin SIMMs for the Macintosh SE/30 or 4-GiB DDR2 SDRAM DIMMs for my x86-64 motherboard.
* Oksana
thinks that the user manual should state real limitations instead of contemporary "maximum size of RAM module", and looks into the Internet's words of wisdom on Lifebook RAM
<brolin_empey>
Also, an x86-64 notebook computer is not old on some scales, such as when considering that I have an 80286 notebook computer from around 1989. :-P
<brolin_empey>
Oksana: As far as I know, usually Intel/AMD/VIA/whoever do not requalify their old hardware designs for the maximum amount of main memory after the hardware design is released. The official maximum is only the maximum that was qualified by Intel/AMD/VIA/whoever and possibly also the computer/motherboard maker.
<Oksana>
As in, 110AUD to equip one laptop with two such modules
<brolin_empey>
after the hardware design is released = after the product containing the RAM controller is released, such as the north bridge or the CPU for an x86 computer.
* brolin_empey
was born in 1987 so he is younger than the 80286 (released in 1982) but not this 80286-based computer from 1989.
<brolin_empey>
Also, interestingly Wikipedia says that the original XBox, which uses a Pentium III CPU, uses DDR SDRAM but I have never knowingly seen a Pentium III computer that uses DDR SDRAM.
<Oksana>
Disassemble an XBox?
<brolin_empey>
Oksana: No, I do not have one. If I really wanted to check that claim it would probably be easier to find a photograph of an Xbox motherboard to try to read the label/marking on the DRAM IC(s).
<brolin_empey>
s/that uses DDR SDRAM/that uses DDR SDRAM for the main memory/
<brolin_empey>
Having a peripheral, such as a video card, that uses DDR SDRAM does not count.
<brolin_empey>
OK, I searched the Internet and found this article:
<brolin_empey>
not DDR SDRAM.
<brolin_empey>
which says that the DRAM IC is a Samsung K4D263238M-QC50 , which apparently truly is DDR SDRAM instead of SDR SDRAM but probably only because the Xbox uses an nVidia chipset instead of an Intel chipset. Other than the Xbox, I do not think I have knowingly seen a Pentium III computer or, more generally, a P6 microarchitecture computer with an nVidia chipset. As far as I know, the Intel chipsets used in P6 microarchitecture computers support only SDR SDRAM,
<brolin_empey>
This article also talks about an Intel computer using HyperTransport, though; I thought HyperTransport is an AMD technology.
<brolin_empey>
This article also says that the Coppermine CPU used in the 2001 Xbox motherboard is a Mobile Celeron, not a Pentium III, but I guess the only difference is the amount of cache.
<brolin_empey>
Or at least the primary difference, maybe not the only difference.
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<houkime>
If there is no progress on this matter and no consensus reached this Sunday I will write some minimal contribution guide myself. One can still edit it later. I willl write it in contributor-centric manner, because contributors for stagnating project is the most precious thing in the world.
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<houkime>
Strict real-time quality control is useless if contributors are in pain and can't move forward.
<houkime>
if such situation occurs new ways should be invented to provide quality
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<houkime>
The volume of tasks and contributions needed to the toolchain doesn't really matter because it is really THE only way out.
<houkime>
otherwise the project is not fun to participate and is dead
<houkime>
this is how community projects work. They absolutely must be interesting and fun to participate. It is not even #1 it is #0.
<houkime>
end result doesn't even matter as much as fun does
<houkime>
and even "chinese copycats" don't matter if fear of them deters contributor fun
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<houkime>
chomwitt says that the current apparent conflict between joerg's ideas of how things should be done and me trying to ease the flow makes him uneasy.
<houkime>
and if a community member chomwitt feels uneasy we have a problem, esp so that it is likely that others will feel it too.
<houkime>
however I don't know how to end conflicts with joerg's vision without deterring contributors flow and leaving neo900 die.
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<houkime>
I'm open to your suggestions though and will be glad to at least try to discuss solutions in a constructive manner.
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<Joerg-Neo900>
do you have anything to sugest yourself, instead of just spreading FUD?
<Joerg-Neo900>
even on github you have to register before you can contrinute
<Joerg-Neo900>
contribute*
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<houkime>
Registration on github is an automated and extremely quick process. And it is the single thing you need in order to contribute. no cryptosigned ndas.
<houkime>
Besides, getting the sources (which in my suggestion should just hang somewhere in the open) is not the only problem with contribution flow right now.
<houkime>
kicad4 is very painful and buggy (try opening current layout with legacy toolset enabled) and no matter what theoretical bonuses lie in using old software it doesn't really make for it
<Joerg-Neo900>
I'm fed up with this constant rant about the project being structured in a way so it can't find contributors. Please point us to a prior project of yours where you did it in a better way and had better success with layouting ccomplex circuitry
<houkime>
I peronally don't have such projects because i'm very young. But Sparkfun for example does.
<houkime>
basically sparkfun is all structured in a way to comfort contribs
<Joerg-Neo900>
probably that's the core problem here. I'm very old and have seen lots of shit happening
<Joerg-Neo900>
and this isn't the first project I'm contributing to
<houkime>
very nice of you. in 2018 we can do stuff in a fun open way and don't suffer from old shit that you've seen as much
<Joerg-Neo900>
furthermore I am financially liable for this prohect
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<houkime>
and thereby you will let it die?
<Joerg-Neo900>
anyway, where are your suggestions to *improve* stuff. I'm really fed up with 90% of what you say is "this isn't good, this sucks, this is buggy" (with the latter usually turning out to be a lack of understanding in the complete picture on your side)
<^7heo>
< houkime> In 2018 we can do stuff in a fun open way and don't suffer from old shit that you've seen as much
<^7heo>
That is SO besides the point that I don't even know how to answer it.
<^7heo>
Doing hardware and doing software are roughtly equivalent to respectively going to war and playing CS:GO.
<^7heo>
s/tly/ly/
<houkime>
Ok. give me a sec to write a nice list of suggestions to improve contrib flow.
<houkime>
btw ^7heo: DO have a look at how a hardware org sparkfun operates. I was not speaking about software.
<^7heo>
But make it nice alright? It's much more important than it being useful. ;)
<^7heo>
you're comparing things that have nothing in common.
<^7heo>
sparkfun is a retailer.
<Joerg-Neo900>
oh c'mon we obviously simply put out fingers in our ears and sung LALALALA when you came up with that truckload of issues you're just running into, in the past
<^7heo>
Joerg-Neo900: wie alt bist du btw?
<Joerg-Neo900>
58
<^7heo>
das ist nicht so alt ;)
<Joerg-Neo900>
"zu alt fuer so nen scheiss"
<^7heo>
:D
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<houkime>
ok, here is it
<houkime>
maybe not perfect but sth to discuss without "please propose sth constructive"
<houkime>
I will go and check in in several hours so you can uninterruptedly write whatever criticism you want.
<houkime>
be back later.
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<Joerg-Neo900>
sorry, I won't stuff that contains accusations like "done because it is NOT blocked by joerg"
<Joerg-Neo900>
if you think I'm your enemy then this project isn't for you
<Joerg-Neo900>
complete 1) (no I'm dicussing it nevertheless) is *again* moot since it moans about implementations while not listing the goal. WTF is your problem with "complicated scripts" you never even seen in your life so far?
<Joerg-Neo900>
there's this one guy in that other project wrtitten in python, who constantly pushes violently for switching the complete project to golang. Guess about his success with his idea, when he doesn't deliver sound arguments why the project needs such a radical switch
<Joerg-Neo900>
his arguments are like "*I* can write much faster in go than in python" and "go is a nice languange" and "python is lame"
<Joerg-Neo900>
I'm very sorry we don't use gitlab like PRs. We simply don't. Get over it, or come up with an evidence where we need this massive complication and redactoring of what's there. "Because you like PRs better than sending patches" is NOT such evidence
<Joerg-Neo900>
>>(however right now even formalities may take several days (and they TOOK in my case) I consider this inacceptable contributor experience)<< Metacollin's "contributor experience" was 5h to understand what we do **and provide his first contribution: a Mac patch for eeshow** - how long did it take until you even took a LOOK at the easily accessable info about WHAT EESHOW IS?
<Joerg-Neo900>
and by "provide contribution" I actually refer to a git commit&push
<Joerg-Neo900>
re 3: congrats, that's exactly what we have, afaik
<Joerg-Neo900>
>>4. Make kicad5 and each stable release hereafter an official tool to work with files:<< you start to annoy me. Show me the "stable kicad 5 release" of 2 months ago!!
<Joerg-Neo900>
honestly, *everything* is in the CC-BY:NC-CA and GPL, when you think we're doing everything wrong, pretty please YOU START DOING IT BETTER. Stop blaming us and trying to force US changing stuff
<Joerg-Neo900>
you know what's killing the project for sure? contributers looking at the channel log and seeing your endless rant about *everything* in this project being absolutely unbearable
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<Joerg-Neo900>
and a basic consideration: I don't think layout (pcbnew project files) lend themselves well to management with git, and generally layout doesn't lend itself to cooperative work at all. So I suggest you simply upload the layout stuff to regular dir using your sftp account. Since it seems you can't be bothered to learn how to "git commit && git push"
<Joerg-Neo900>
and schematics are not in the realm of layouter, only for reference. Any changes un schematics need to get done by the schenmatics folks who know how to use kicad4 to keep compatibility for that
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<ravelo>
houkime, Joerg-Neo900: to discuss these topics is imho very Important. I might join tomorrow as i am on vacation right now
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<houkime>
1) The goal is clearly indicated in the heading on my file "improve contributors workflow". I can say it also in an another way: to minimize delays and effort needed for contributor to successfully contribute. I think it is clear enough. I think the delays that are stemming out of a closed model are very significant. They consist of 1) waiting for you to show up in this chat and respond 2) writing and sending a signed email to you with nda 3) waiting
<houkime>
for atk to jump in 4) waiting for atk to create an account and manage rights 5) generating ssh keypair for a server 6) waiting for atk to be there and to receive and register your open key 7) cloning and making your branch 8) waiting for atk to be there to make you a remote branch to push to and manage your write access to it. 9) making changes and pushing.
<houkime>
formalities alone can take several days, yes, and in fact oksana still doesn't have even read rights even given she was talking about it yesterday and already gone as far as to install kicad.
<houkime>
metacollin didn't have so much delay with eeshow because eeshow is completely open and takes literally cloning, changing and sending out a patch
<houkime>
complex scripts are a problem because atk for example had to work several days to support open git logs for non-master branches whilst that wouldn't be an issue if not for a system of repo filtration.
<houkime>
because just any files and logs would be open by default
<houkime>
*would have been
<Joerg-Neo900>
houkime: I also got a goal: stop this discussion.
<Joerg-Neo900>
you either tell me what particular procedure you have trouble with, and I'm pretty confident we already have a solution in place for it that I can help you to understand and use so you achieve to complete the task at your hands. Or I will ignore any further request asking for abstract goals like "streamlining contribution" etc
<Joerg-Neo900>
you never indicate any real task you want to achive (aka goal), you always talk about properties of the project (ease of contribution) you want to change by modifying the tools used (git etc) but frequently you fail to solve a task by all that (like "multiple users can concurrently edit the FOOBAR file")
<Joerg-Neo900>
>>complex scripts are a problem because atk for example had to work several days to support open git logs for non-master branches whilst that wouldn't be an issue if not for a system of repo filtration.<< sorry to put it that plain: you got no idea what you're talking about
<Joerg-Neo900>
the changes you ask for in project, I suggest you better implement in your own project. You're welcome to clone Neo900 and start it your own way
<houkime>
so you're opensourcing it and clearing ndas?
<houkime>
because otherwise I can't really clone
<houkime>
publicly at least
<Joerg-Neo900>
sorry, that's *again* nonsense and shows you have a completely wrong idea about so many things
<houkime>
*clone-> fork
<houkime>
sorry
<wpwrak>
i think it would be hilarious if a copycat actually did try to steal the design ;-) i mean, first, they're likely to work with very different numbers. second, in order to copycat the design, they need n900 parts. now, who owns all those that could still be found in the market ? and will joerg really want to sell them to the copycat ? ;-)
<Joerg-Neo900>
you can't clone the footprints and layout you inherited from metacollin. And I think rhis statement already shows me that you failed to even understand that and I need to rethink the access to project I granted you based on the NDA you sent
<Joerg-Neo900>
everything else is under CC and you're free to start your own NON-COMMERCIAL project from it
<Joerg-Neo900>
and U'd be very happy if you rather do that than continue to pester me about changes in toolchain
<Joerg-Neo900>
obviously you're not using any of the existing toolchain anyway, so why not start your own project right away? AGAON: NOTHING but the layout stuff metacolling and you did is under any "NDA"
<Joerg-Neo900>
so if you hate that much the tools wpwrak and I got set up and provided for contributors, why do you try to talk us unto changing them?
<houkime>
no, I just thought for a second that you want to get rid of me so much that you release layout. Probably not though. Sad because this would be 1) from my complaint list auto-completed.
<Joerg-Neo900>
wpwrak: the project is basically dead since sourcing of further N900 parts is getting impossible but to do production we need 200 or 300 more orders for which we can't source the N900. A copycat OTOH could produce a 5ß boards and offer them to those users who already have a N900, "for cheap". I don't know if I care one way or the other
<Joerg-Neo900>
houkime: if there's any layout not done by you that you need me to release so you could continue with the project on your own, then I think you could NOT continue with the project on your own, due to lack of skills. We got no layout to publish yet
<houkime>
I can reiterate everything myself to get rid of nda-protected stuff of metacollin and my own, but it will take time and i'm a bit lazy to redo.
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes, more dilligentce in productive work and less bitching about tools would help a lot
<Joerg-Neo900>
I just can say mrtacollin got his stuff sorted and didn't ask for changes in toolchain, rtaher contributed to fixes in the existing one, within 2 days. This is not a pony park for devels to drop by, pick an interesting little weekend duty and then walk on. I had a basically two time 18h nonstop chat with metacollin where I helped him with sharing hints like pointers to documents and whitepapers, setting up his git account and whatnot. With you
<Joerg-Neo900>
I had a month of discussion if gitolite was a good or a bad tool for this purpose
<Joerg-Neo900>
and after that month (and them several more) you still have a >>Instead people will just have their own forks and no write access to the main repo is needed. forks a reviewed upon merge but that's it.<< in your list of issues. Which is exactly how we manage things on our server
<houkime>
joerg-neo900: sorry but you're wrong in this last one. Repo is the project folder altogether with all branches.
<houkime>
Fork is a similar WHOLE repo copied from the first repo at some point.
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<Joerg-Neo900>
listen, I'm fed up with this
<houkime>
right now you're managing your repo in a way that different branches are for different people
<houkime>
I'm proposing a different thing which is much easier to do and which is usually done
<Joerg-Neo900>
get over it, what we have JUST WORKS and WONT GET CHANGED because "something new is simpler". Nothing is simpler than a working system