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<chomwitt>
i dont understand. are u willing to put efford when u dont even know if it can be built? there could be pieces that cant be found in the market. u still think it just a 'manpower' issue?
<houkime>
what can't be built?
<chomwitt>
neo900
<houkime>
oh, you're about cases?
<chomwitt>
no
<chomwitt>
i mean the motherboard
<houkime>
motherboard we are producing and designing
<chomwitt>
but , also at least the screen
<chomwitt>
:-)
<chomwitt>
what do u mean 'we are producing' ?
<houkime>
sorry, english and tenses. Currently designing. Will produce.
<houkime>
I'm actually worried a bit now joerg-Neo900 not responding anything about n900 count
<Joerg-Neo900>
hm?
<chomwitt>
hi
<houkime>
joerg-neo900: how many N900's are currently in stash?
<chomwitt>
i'm asking the project still 'doable' in the hardware-sourcing the components sense yet?
<Joerg-Neo900>
houkime: slightly over 200. Enough for the ciustomers who preordered a complete device, not enough for the number of units we need to produce and sell ro reach break-even exonomically
<Joerg-Neo900>
eco*
<chomwitt>
but those are the cases with screens and keyboards. what about the components to build 200 motherboards?
<houkime>
they are full n900s
<Joerg-Neo900>
we have ~200 preorders for complete devices (and sufficent N900 for that), and we have ~150 preorders for NeoN bareboard/kit. We need a total of 600+ unit sales/preorders (Neo900 / NeoN) to make production feasible
<Joerg-Neo900>
alas it gets increasingly more difficult to source more N900 even if we can generate more preorders
<houkime>
chomwitt: motherboards themselves are modern with modern components from digikey. old are only cameras and battery gauges
<chomwitt>
houkime: i got that, but the motherboards of the n900s arent's useless?
<Joerg-Neo900>
200 nice little beagleboard-alike SBCs
<Oksana>
To generate more pre-orders for motherboards (not complete devices), emphasis should be on "you can take your old dusty N900 with not-working-motherboard and breathe new life into it with NeoN bareboard/kit"
<Joerg-Neo900>
>>old are only cameras and battery gauges<< HM? how are battery gauges old""?
<Joerg-Neo900>
Oksana: yep
<Oksana>
As in, new NeoN bareboard still needs "old" camera module from Nokia N900?
<Oksana>
Unless compatible camera modules are available en masse on digikey or something
<chomwitt>
Joerg-Neo900: the '200 beagleboard-alike SBS' have been bought? and do they have on them the cpu , mem etc i read in the neo900 specs?
<Joerg-Neo900>
Oksana: yes, we plan to osurce N97(?) camera modules
<Joerg-Neo900>
source*
<Joerg-Neo900>
chomwitt: hmm? please rephrase
<Oksana>
What are the dimensions of NeoN bareboard/kit? /Just wondering if it could be compatible with some other phone case, besides Nokia N900 - highly unlikely though, given the hardware keyboard/
<Joerg-Neo900>
pknevermind
<Joerg-Neo900>
never mind
<Joerg-Neo900>
Oksana: ^^^
<Joerg-Neo900>
chomwitt: I susp4ect some misconception regarding Neo900, N900, old and new PCBs
<houkime>
joerg-neo900: there are two gauges and one is old for compatibility reasons. it is not sourced though probably just antique. BQ27200DRK
<houkime>
is officially marked as not for new designs
<Joerg-Neo900>
?
<Joerg-Neo900>
so?
<houkime>
joerg-neo900:Nothing really. You were just asking about how gauges are old. One of them is.
<houkime>
x - 105.75 y 56.4 and some z you can look up in stacking
<chomwitt>
arent beableboard used only for a v2 prototype? i thougth that in the finally neo900 a new motherboard would have to be designed
<Joerg-Neo900>
define: 'old'
<Joerg-Neo900>
chomwitt: you asked >><chomwitt> houkime: i got that, but the motherboards of the n900s arent's useless?<<, I gathered you're talking about the original N900 PCB that came with the 200 N900 we sourced. They are "useless" except when you use them as beagleboard-alike SingleBoardComputers
<Joerg-Neo900>
we use a BB-xM as "brainboard" for proto_v2, we sourced 10 of them
<Joerg-Neo900>
sorry, afk, Be back tomorrow
<chomwitt>
Joerg-Neo900: i was wondering more generally if the components of the final neo900 can be found
<chomwitt>
lets say in 2 years from now
<houkime>
joerg-neo900: bye. thx for info
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<chomwitt>
?
<houkime>
chomwitt: there is nothing really fast-expiring inside the board itself board maybe besides this one gauge.
<houkime>
at least nothing that can't be corrected with relative ease
<chomwitt>
houkime: i'm not a hardware expert by far ,thats why i ask
<chomwitt>
so lets say in 2 years from now if v2 goes ok , it could be found 300 omap TI DM3730
* Oksana
thinks that manufacturing another wave of identical Neo900 devices will probably be impossible in 10 years? Because OMAP3 CPU sounds old
<chomwitt>
Oksana: what do y mean another? we'r talking about the first wave i think :-)
<chomwitt>
sorry, 350 TI DM3730 (200 + 150 bareboards)
<houkime>
I wouldn't make neo900s in 10 years from now even if they happen to be super popular. Conversion phones in general produce too many troubles in development i think
<houkime>
like... far too many
<chomwitt>
conversion phones?
<Oksana>
First wave will be alright, afaik. And 1000 would be needed, minimum.
<Oksana>
Conversion from Nokia N900 to NeoN900
<houkime>
like right now compatibility with old soft and case makes many things much more complicated than they should be
<chomwitt>
well the project is without sufficient manpower to even pull v2 , its 650 unit behind economical feasability if i can recap ..
<houkime>
like, i wouldn't spend a month trying to solve bob problems if i could just modify case.
<houkime>
and yes there are two gauges one of which is old and 5 times bigger by area then another
<houkime>
for compatibility
<chomwitt>
sorry , 250 units behind economic viabity
<Oksana>
chomwitt : I pre-ordered 7 complete devices. And that's while being a student - not a billionaire. Granted, I am an electronics magpie...
<Oksana>
houkime : If you could modify the case, you would spend a month modifying the case, and you would have to speak with Greece (or somebody) like Pyra does, looking at prototypes of the case.
<Oksana>
Interesting, but implies lots of arguments on forums about "What should the case be like?"
<chomwitt>
Oksana: i pre-ordered one
<Oksana>
Nice :-) Thank you :-) I wish I could support somehow else, besides pre-orders, but no idea how
<houkime>
Support that is really needed now is not about money. Like, joerg actually has the money to hire layouter and whatnot
<houkime>
the problem is layouters bail out
<houkime>
and kicad layouters esp working on linux are rare
* Oksana
has never seen kicad or anything before - and that's besides the layouting probably requiring lots of time
* Oksana
could try to install kicad on my Linux laptop - which I switch on about once a week, using N900 most of the time instead of laptop - since I don't think KiCad runs well (if at all) on N900
* Oksana
corrects myself - 6 device pre-orders and one voucher, actually
<chomwitt>
Oksana: is neo900 based on GTA04 ?
<houkime>
Oksana: you can totally try
<houkime>
Oksana: there will be no har anyway
<houkime>
*no harm
<Joerg-Neo900>
houkime: please! what makes you think >>joerg actually has the money to hire layouter<< ?
<houkime>
Joerg-neo900: because you have already tried to contract them? Did interviews and whatnot?
<houkime>
that's how metacollin ended up involved, no?
<Oksana>
chomwitt : Yes, to a large extent.
<chomwitt>
strangely goldendelicious has none stock at the moment
<chomwitt>
is gta04 abandoned?
<Oksana>
They tried to make a newer version, see #gta04 But it didn't work out, for now, I think
<chomwitt>
i think i found the issue with GTA04A5 , there was an issue with the soldering of the omap processor
<chomwitt>
they got a yield <33%
<chomwitt>
a! it mentions neo900.. :-/
<houkime>
yep that's pretty bad
<houkime>
"unsolderable chips"
<Oksana>
RAM/NAND PoP
<Oksana>
chip
<Oksana>
Which RAM/NAND PoP chip did they have?
<Oksana>
Going by old conversations, "soldering is simply a matter of doing more tests so no issue afaik", "for Neo900 there's no such thing like a 'PoP/RAM soldering issue' yet"
<chomwitt>
'So the best for Neo900 would be to change the CPU/RAM chip'
<houkime>
it is actually a bit strange that problem is so severe given that omap-3 has some successful products with it inside
<houkime>
like, is it ok for mass producers to have 33 percent yield and be profitable?
<houkime>
probably one needsto talk with omap guys themselves?
<chomwitt>
well, i dont have the knowledge to say sth in the technicals ,but it seems that finding another company to do the soldering maybe could help?
<houkime>
It might help, and might not help. Nobody knows at this point aside of those who actually had success.
<houkime>
that's why i think one needs to investigate the factories that actually successfully soldered this stuff
<houkime>
and maybe use them
<houkime>
because there are such factories obviously
<chomwitt>
so that's an open issue of investigation. find successfull products with high yield with OMAP3
<Oksana>
houkime : The only other device with OMAP3 and 1GB RAM is Nokia N9, apparently?
<houkime>
Oksana: There was a short under the cpu which means that cpu itself is already a problem. Nokia wasn't the only ones using omap3 i believe
<houkime>
soldering problems are also not dependent on silicon itself - they are about a package
<Oksana>
In short, don't worry about it, and make the layout. If somebody has suitable CPU and NAND/RAM chips at hand, and tools to try different methods of soldering, it would be nice.
<Oksana>
>> an OMAP ZIF socket to test the soldered stack << would be nice as well
<chomwitt>
arent any simulation software available for such complex soldering?
<houkime>
i believe one could try to extract info from TI itself and save some test runs
<Oksana>
chomwitt : Ideally, TI would outright specify what is necessary for no-trouble soldering of their chip. They do mention possibility of "pre-assembling the PoP stack" which may be helpful
<houkime>
ideally if it doesn't solder with the method they themselves recommended one can ask for refunds
<chomwitt>
so someone out there knows... :-0
<chomwitt>
thats little comforting... :-)
<chomwitt>
but houkime dont u think that a nice wiki with an updated FAQ could propably made some parts of this conversation or the conversations (that i just learned) more accessible to newcomers and propably to someone how 'knows...'
<chomwitt>
how->who
<houkime>
to be sure though i would recommend using a factory with prior experience with omap3
<houkime>
chomwitt: yes. Also I can just open an issue for that
<chomwitt>
if someone knows the 'social' part of the project would help.
<chomwitt>
you could even send letters to factories to respond to pick the job
<houkime>
chomwitt: for this sort of stuff i think issues is the most right format because it is... an issue.
<houkime>
One still needs to be a wiki admin and setupper nevrtheless
<houkime>
wiki is a nice thing
<Oksana>
houkime : This issue was already solved once, for GTA04 (which also used OMAP3, apparently). The same factory couldn't replicate success for GTA04A5, though?
<chomwitt>
so the issue was to the new processor or memory GTAO4A5 used?
<houkime>
There might be a thing that while there is a reflow setting for omap3 and is a reflow setting for memory they are not necessarily combined ok.
<Oksana>
chomwitt : Fab said it's problem of different NAND/PoP chip, but then, it could be that their equipment/staff changed
<chomwitt>
Oksana: in that case test should be done it two factories
<chomwitt>
two factories with different machines
<chomwitt>
that could help pinpoint the issue i think
<chomwitt>
so GTA04A5 choose the one.. neo900 should choose another if trying the same chip combo
<chomwitt>
well i'm out of my stuff here. sorry just carried away.
<chomwitt>
have to sleep.
<chomwitt>
thanks for answering my questions.
<houkime>
yw
<houkime>
writing an issue
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