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<ndnihil> sooo, can I order yet? I'm down to my last droid4
<ndnihil> :)
<Joerg-Neo900> you can order since over a year. And you probably can NOT order anymore when we have started production, since we can't afford building for the shelf
<ndnihil> so spares are going to be nonexistent?
<Joerg-Neo900> this is not the usual "big company builds a masss market product"
<ndnihil> yeah I know, been following this since day 1
<Joerg-Neo900> spares are for spare
<ndnihil> have a gta02, and n900, etc...
<ndnihil> been modding phones since analog days, and was relatively well known for p2k stuff
<Joerg-Neo900> we're going to build strictly to order, customized version for each of our customers
<ndnihil> is that a good idea, business-wise?
<Joerg-Neo900> do you have a better idea?
<ndnihil> standardization has always shown itself to be more sustainable
<ndnihil> dont get me wrong, like the boutique concept
<Joerg-Neo900> or do you maybe have a USD 50k or 100k or 500k to invest?
<ndnihil> but it's not very profitable unless you have the marketing, and generally doesn't last long
<ndnihil> kickstarter didn't do it?
<Joerg-Neo900> this *is* *no* big company driving this project. and there are no funds for doing that type of thing you suggest
<ndnihil> so there's funds to customize each order, but not to standardize?
<Joerg-Neo900> 42
<ndnihil> ...
<Joerg-Neo900> you're implying incorrect
<Joerg-Neo900> there's no more funds to pay my own flat rent
<ndnihil> you do realize it costs more to develop multiple versions of something, than to develop one, right?
<Joerg-Neo900> you realize we are working on this since quite a while and we did a lot of business planning?
<ndnihil> oh yeah, I know how long this has been going on
<ndnihil> been itching to see it happen for years now
<Joerg-Neo900> sorry, I feel a little grumpy about this discussion
<ndnihil> I noticed
<atk> The customisation is just the modem isn't it?
<Joerg-Neo900> yes
<atk> And the interface to that is pretty much standardised.
<Joerg-Neo900> yes
<atk> So the standardisation is there, the customisation doesn't raise the costs in reality.
<Joerg-Neo900> not at all
<atk> ndnihil: now you have your answer
<Joerg-Neo900> except for planning the spares
<ndnihil> if it's just the modem, and there aren't any/many special concessions for the modem change, that's not a huge deal
<ndnihil> no offense, but I do question whether it's going to happen before it's completely obsolete though
<Joerg-Neo900> not if everybody waits with their preorder until we built the device for them. We don't have the funds to do that
<ndnihil> on the other hand, I personally have lost thousands of dollars on preorder and crowdfunding things that never made it through
<Joerg-Neo900> that's the risk with crowdfunding
<ndnihil> it is, and I'm not complaining about it, just saying it's a reason to be cautious
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<Joerg-Neo900> but ignoring the fact that this IS crowdfunding won't turn the project into something different
<ndnihil> I knew the risks and I never funded or preordered anything I wasn't prepared to gamble away the price on
<Joerg-Neo900> we made the schematics and the component sourcing, and we're starting layout of proto_v2. And it seems like we _have_ to go kickstarter or similar when we have proto_v2 to show off
<ndnihil> yeah, having something tangible to show will help a lot
<Joerg-Neo900> since our own crowdfunding isn't reaching its numbers because it seems everybody waiting for sales starting to do their preorder
<ndnihil> yeah, I'm in that camp
<Joerg-Neo900> won't happen
<ndnihil> generally when I get the "need a new phone" itch, it's because I'm out of spares and wanting to try something new
<Joerg-Neo900> sales already started, when we start production, sales will close
<ndnihil> yeah, that approach probably isn't going to work for me (or many others)
<Joerg-Neo900> or rather, we will offer a crowdfunding for batch2, with odds it never will reach the goal
<Joerg-Neo900> or we go VC then, and turn into a more 'normal' commercial company
<ndnihil> in the modern world, phones are a consumable commodity
<Joerg-Neo900> but then for STEP2 device already
<ndnihil> paying a premium for a one-time thing isn't going to appeal to a lot of the market
<Joerg-Neo900> this is not what Neo900 philosophy is complying with, we want to make stuff with a lasting value
<ndnihil> I get that, and you get that, and a handful of other people might get that
<ndnihil> but 99.9999999% of the market doesn't get that
<ndnihil> and that's where the money comes from
<Joerg-Neo900> yes, we been there, discussed all that. Do you have a better idea?
<ndnihil> well, I have other ideas
<ndnihil> "better" is a matter of opinion
<Joerg-Neo900> sure
<ndnihil> I've built halfassed phones
<Joerg-Neo900> I'm always open to discussing all sorts of ideas
<ndnihil> random cell module+bare avr, random cell module+pi, etc...
<Joerg-Neo900> but so far I didn't hear any
<ndnihil> well
<ndnihil> personally I wouldn't have relied on n900 parts
<ndnihil> it's a great little phone, I love mine
<ndnihil> but it's a bit outdated for the current market
<Joerg-Neo900> yeah sure. IF we could afford, we also had made our own case and display
<Joerg-Neo900> just and me a USD 500k and tomorrow we start with doing that
<ndnihil> lol
<ndnihil> if I had $500k laying around, I'd have more cars
<Joerg-Neo900> Hand me*
<Joerg-Neo900> so where's the alternative idea? I'm still listening
<ndnihil> stackable modules
<Joerg-Neo900> I'm really more than willing to listen to any ideas that have potential to improve our situation
<ndnihil> futureproof it by making each relevant component upgradable individually
<ndnihil> and letting the end user tailor it to their needs
<freemangordon> ndnihil: that costs money, lots of
<ndnihil> nothing I say is going to be anything short of a complete redesign
<Joerg-Neo900> meh, that's BLOKS and never worked even for Google
<Joerg-Neo900> aka Project Ara
<freemangordon> those 500k won't suffice for even start
<ndnihil> that's big production costs though
<freemangordon> Joerg-Neo900: any clue why they gave up?
<Joerg-Neo900> unfeasible
<freemangordon> too bulky?
<ndnihil> you can one-off it for a couple grand tops
<Joerg-Neo900> as a lot of us predicted from beginning
<ndnihil> not including dev time of course
<Joerg-Neo900> BLOKS always been a pipe dream, for very sound reasons
<ndnihil> bloks was interesting, but the physical design was kinda crap
<Joerg-Neo900> a handful of companies incl Motorole(?) and Google tried and finally failed
<Joerg-Neo900> it was plain to see that it never will fly
<Joerg-Neo900> for the very reasons YOU gave above
<Joerg-Neo900> among others
<ndnihil> they were aiming a prosumer/tinkerer device at mass market
<ndnihil> that's not going to work
<ndnihil> think of such a phone as a DSLR
<ndnihil> only a small percentage of the market is going to want the extra grunt for the premium price
<ndnihil> but the ones that do know that it's worth it
<ndnihil> they're a little more bulky, but a lot more powerful
<Joerg-Neo900> there are other more physical reasons. Let me quoze just one of them: case tooling, development and B2B connectors and mech locks for a WLAN module: $30 per module plus $30 for the WLAN chip. Same WLAN chip integrated into a non-modular design: $30 or even less thanks to synergies in circuitry. Same WLAN functionality integrated into the SoC (just like BT, modem, whatnot nowadays): 2$
<ndnihil> case tooling is a huge cost, and easily thwarted
<Joerg-Neo900> and sorry, that's correctly "a damn lot more bulky, and actually hardly more powerful at all"
<ndnihil> additive manufacturing has seen to that
<ndnihil> even if it's too finicky for the average home 3d printer, places like shapeways with their industrial SLS can handle it
<Joerg-Neo900> I'f like to tell you about all the stuff we found when we been exactly there years ago, but I don't have the time tight now for that
<ndnihil> the days of paying $20k for a mold and $5k for a run of 5 thousand objects are gone
<ndnihil> unless you're big scale
<Joerg-Neo900> making a one-off aka "additive production" of a case the quality and complicated details of e.g. N900 takes way more than 100 bucks for each item
<ndnihil> I know it's crazy expensive, hell I have a simple desktop stand for a scanner up on shapeways
<ndnihil> and they're charging $56 without me making a single penny off it
<Joerg-Neo900> I know of production cost and (feeble) complexity of Neo Freerunner cases, for different production methods
<ndnihil> I need to redesign it for SLS rather than the FDM I was originally using
<ndnihil> should be able to get it down to half that
<ndnihil> totally overpriced right?
<Joerg-Neo900> you know, we (Werner and me, and Nikolaus too) already been exactly there with Openmoko and GTA04, and it been exactly this that triggered the Neo900 to start with
<Joerg-Neo900> cheers
<Joerg-Neo900> bbl
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<Joerg-Neo900> shapeways can hardly do better than 0.2mm precision
<ndnihil> design for the process
<Joerg-Neo900> go ahead, do it!
<ndnihil> trying to mimic the super slim fit press to latch commercial stuff is going to cost out the ass
<ndnihil> a little extra bulk, looser tolerances, and clever arrangement can help that though
<ndnihil> the market has shown that people don't mind carrying around giant phones, as long as they think it's cool enough
<ndnihil> christ modern phones may as well just be tablets
<Joerg-Neo900> pir https://www.ixquick.com/do/search?q=Neo+Freerunner&nj=0&cat=pics will look sleek in comparison when you achive to come up with something
<ndnihil> +1 for ixquick
<Joerg-Neo900> our*
<ndnihil> and I have a gta02 sitting 3ft from me
<ndnihil> maybe 4
<ndnihil> even still have it on the stand I made for it
<ndnihil> lol
<ndnihil> write once, run nowhere
<ndnihil> on a tangent
<ndnihil> you do much soldering of tiny stuff?
<ndnihil> can not for the life of me get that lug back on
<ndnihil> not with iron, not with reflow
<ndnihil> not even a massive pre-heat of the lug
<ndnihil> even getting desoldering wick to stick to it is halfassed and mimics a cold joint
<Joerg-Neo900> that's tiny stuff? ;-P Well anyway I can't comment, the photos don't provide sufficient info to start thinking about it
<ndnihil> hey, most of my stuff is still through-hole :)
<ndnihil> hell, I still dremel traces onto boards
<Joerg-Neo900> hehe
<Joerg-Neo900> o/ l8rs
<ndnihil> later
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