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<ndnihil>
sooo, can I order yet? I'm down to my last droid4
<ndnihil>
:)
<Joerg-Neo900>
you can order since over a year. And you probably can NOT order anymore when we have started production, since we can't afford building for the shelf
<ndnihil>
so spares are going to be nonexistent?
<Joerg-Neo900>
this is not the usual "big company builds a masss market product"
<ndnihil>
yeah I know, been following this since day 1
<Joerg-Neo900>
spares are for spare
<ndnihil>
have a gta02, and n900, etc...
<ndnihil>
been modding phones since analog days, and was relatively well known for p2k stuff
<Joerg-Neo900>
we're going to build strictly to order, customized version for each of our customers
<ndnihil>
is that a good idea, business-wise?
<Joerg-Neo900>
do you have a better idea?
<ndnihil>
standardization has always shown itself to be more sustainable
<ndnihil>
dont get me wrong, like the boutique concept
<Joerg-Neo900>
or do you maybe have a USD 50k or 100k or 500k to invest?
<ndnihil>
but it's not very profitable unless you have the marketing, and generally doesn't last long
<ndnihil>
kickstarter didn't do it?
<Joerg-Neo900>
this *is* *no* big company driving this project. and there are no funds for doing that type of thing you suggest
<ndnihil>
so there's funds to customize each order, but not to standardize?
<Joerg-Neo900>
42
<ndnihil>
...
<Joerg-Neo900>
you're implying incorrect
<Joerg-Neo900>
there's no more funds to pay my own flat rent
<ndnihil>
you do realize it costs more to develop multiple versions of something, than to develop one, right?
<Joerg-Neo900>
you realize we are working on this since quite a while and we did a lot of business planning?
<ndnihil>
oh yeah, I know how long this has been going on
<ndnihil>
been itching to see it happen for years now
<Joerg-Neo900>
sorry, I feel a little grumpy about this discussion
<ndnihil>
I noticed
<atk>
The customisation is just the modem isn't it?
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes
<atk>
And the interface to that is pretty much standardised.
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes
<atk>
So the standardisation is there, the customisation doesn't raise the costs in reality.
<Joerg-Neo900>
not at all
<atk>
ndnihil: now you have your answer
<Joerg-Neo900>
except for planning the spares
<ndnihil>
if it's just the modem, and there aren't any/many special concessions for the modem change, that's not a huge deal
<ndnihil>
no offense, but I do question whether it's going to happen before it's completely obsolete though
<Joerg-Neo900>
not if everybody waits with their preorder until we built the device for them. We don't have the funds to do that
<ndnihil>
on the other hand, I personally have lost thousands of dollars on preorder and crowdfunding things that never made it through
<Joerg-Neo900>
that's the risk with crowdfunding
<ndnihil>
it is, and I'm not complaining about it, just saying it's a reason to be cautious
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<Joerg-Neo900>
but ignoring the fact that this IS crowdfunding won't turn the project into something different
<ndnihil>
I knew the risks and I never funded or preordered anything I wasn't prepared to gamble away the price on
<Joerg-Neo900>
we made the schematics and the component sourcing, and we're starting layout of proto_v2. And it seems like we _have_ to go kickstarter or similar when we have proto_v2 to show off
<ndnihil>
yeah, having something tangible to show will help a lot
<Joerg-Neo900>
since our own crowdfunding isn't reaching its numbers because it seems everybody waiting for sales starting to do their preorder
<ndnihil>
yeah, I'm in that camp
<Joerg-Neo900>
won't happen
<ndnihil>
generally when I get the "need a new phone" itch, it's because I'm out of spares and wanting to try something new
<Joerg-Neo900>
sales already started, when we start production, sales will close
<ndnihil>
yeah, that approach probably isn't going to work for me (or many others)
<Joerg-Neo900>
or rather, we will offer a crowdfunding for batch2, with odds it never will reach the goal
<Joerg-Neo900>
or we go VC then, and turn into a more 'normal' commercial company
<ndnihil>
in the modern world, phones are a consumable commodity
<Joerg-Neo900>
but then for STEP2 device already
<ndnihil>
paying a premium for a one-time thing isn't going to appeal to a lot of the market
<Joerg-Neo900>
this is not what Neo900 philosophy is complying with, we want to make stuff with a lasting value
<ndnihil>
I get that, and you get that, and a handful of other people might get that
<ndnihil>
but 99.9999999% of the market doesn't get that
<ndnihil>
and that's where the money comes from
<Joerg-Neo900>
yes, we been there, discussed all that. Do you have a better idea?
<ndnihil>
well, I have other ideas
<ndnihil>
"better" is a matter of opinion
<Joerg-Neo900>
sure
<ndnihil>
I've built halfassed phones
<Joerg-Neo900>
I'm always open to discussing all sorts of ideas
<ndnihil>
random cell module+bare avr, random cell module+pi, etc...
<Joerg-Neo900>
but so far I didn't hear any
<ndnihil>
well
<ndnihil>
personally I wouldn't have relied on n900 parts
<ndnihil>
it's a great little phone, I love mine
<ndnihil>
but it's a bit outdated for the current market
<Joerg-Neo900>
yeah sure. IF we could afford, we also had made our own case and display
<Joerg-Neo900>
just and me a USD 500k and tomorrow we start with doing that
<ndnihil>
lol
<ndnihil>
if I had $500k laying around, I'd have more cars
<Joerg-Neo900>
Hand me*
<Joerg-Neo900>
so where's the alternative idea? I'm still listening
<ndnihil>
stackable modules
<Joerg-Neo900>
I'm really more than willing to listen to any ideas that have potential to improve our situation
<ndnihil>
futureproof it by making each relevant component upgradable individually
<ndnihil>
and letting the end user tailor it to their needs
<freemangordon>
ndnihil: that costs money, lots of
<ndnihil>
nothing I say is going to be anything short of a complete redesign
<Joerg-Neo900>
meh, that's BLOKS and never worked even for Google
<Joerg-Neo900>
aka Project Ara
<freemangordon>
those 500k won't suffice for even start
<ndnihil>
that's big production costs though
<freemangordon>
Joerg-Neo900: any clue why they gave up?
<Joerg-Neo900>
unfeasible
<freemangordon>
too bulky?
<ndnihil>
you can one-off it for a couple grand tops
<Joerg-Neo900>
as a lot of us predicted from beginning
<ndnihil>
not including dev time of course
<Joerg-Neo900>
BLOKS always been a pipe dream, for very sound reasons
<ndnihil>
bloks was interesting, but the physical design was kinda crap
<Joerg-Neo900>
a handful of companies incl Motorole(?) and Google tried and finally failed
<Joerg-Neo900>
it was plain to see that it never will fly
<Joerg-Neo900>
for the very reasons YOU gave above
<Joerg-Neo900>
among others
<ndnihil>
they were aiming a prosumer/tinkerer device at mass market
<ndnihil>
that's not going to work
<ndnihil>
think of such a phone as a DSLR
<ndnihil>
only a small percentage of the market is going to want the extra grunt for the premium price
<ndnihil>
but the ones that do know that it's worth it
<ndnihil>
they're a little more bulky, but a lot more powerful
<Joerg-Neo900>
there are other more physical reasons. Let me quoze just one of them: case tooling, development and B2B connectors and mech locks for a WLAN module: $30 per module plus $30 for the WLAN chip. Same WLAN chip integrated into a non-modular design: $30 or even less thanks to synergies in circuitry. Same WLAN functionality integrated into the SoC (just like BT, modem, whatnot nowadays): 2$
<ndnihil>
case tooling is a huge cost, and easily thwarted
<Joerg-Neo900>
and sorry, that's correctly "a damn lot more bulky, and actually hardly more powerful at all"
<ndnihil>
additive manufacturing has seen to that
<ndnihil>
even if it's too finicky for the average home 3d printer, places like shapeways with their industrial SLS can handle it
<Joerg-Neo900>
I'f like to tell you about all the stuff we found when we been exactly there years ago, but I don't have the time tight now for that
<ndnihil>
the days of paying $20k for a mold and $5k for a run of 5 thousand objects are gone
<ndnihil>
unless you're big scale
<Joerg-Neo900>
making a one-off aka "additive production" of a case the quality and complicated details of e.g. N900 takes way more than 100 bucks for each item
<ndnihil>
I know it's crazy expensive, hell I have a simple desktop stand for a scanner up on shapeways
<ndnihil>
and they're charging $56 without me making a single penny off it
<Joerg-Neo900>
I know of production cost and (feeble) complexity of Neo Freerunner cases, for different production methods
<ndnihil>
I need to redesign it for SLS rather than the FDM I was originally using
<ndnihil>
should be able to get it down to half that
<Joerg-Neo900>
you know, we (Werner and me, and Nikolaus too) already been exactly there with Openmoko and GTA04, and it been exactly this that triggered the Neo900 to start with
<Joerg-Neo900>
cheers
<Joerg-Neo900>
bbl
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<Joerg-Neo900>
shapeways can hardly do better than 0.2mm precision
<ndnihil>
design for the process
<Joerg-Neo900>
go ahead, do it!
<ndnihil>
trying to mimic the super slim fit press to latch commercial stuff is going to cost out the ass
<ndnihil>
a little extra bulk, looser tolerances, and clever arrangement can help that though
<ndnihil>
the market has shown that people don't mind carrying around giant phones, as long as they think it's cool enough
<ndnihil>
christ modern phones may as well just be tablets