avsm changed the topic of #mirage to: Good news everyone! Mirage 3.0 released!
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<mato_>
Folks, I'm on a train and about to enter a rather deep gorge with tunnels, will attempt to keep track of the Mirage catchup, but may not have signal...
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<yomimono>
mato: how's the view, when you're not in tunnels?
<reynir>
oh it's now?
<yomimono>
in... 4 minutes
<reynir>
\o/
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<yomimono>
hi folks! It's been 2 weeks (a fortnight!) since our last catchup, so let's have another one :)
<avsm>
so I think we need to rebuild all those machines
<avsm>
the current setup is really manual
<avsm>
If you can bear with me till next end of next week, I am hopeful of bringing new machines up on Rackspace for this
<avsm>
It won't get done by Friday though...
<avsm>
It would be lovely to be able to mirror on GitHub wiki, but that's also quite tricky due to different formats :(
<amirmc>
I think we've had at least one potential Outreachy student ask on the mailing list so there's a short term problem with where to point them.
<mato_>
What exactly is the problem? Does it really require new machines, or can we solve it with some simple scripting?
<yomimono>
Can we even update the page on Canopy to point out that it's no longer authoritative?
<yomimono>
Or is it so broken that we can't do that?
<avsm>
mato_: the current machine is some ancient vm
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<avsm>
yomimono: it's pretty broken, my key doesnt work :)
<yomimono>
Aha.
<avsm>
we could point them directly at canopy-data
<avsm>
which is less pretty, but does contain the relevant files
<yomimono>
So the set of work to do is actually, build and run a new VM to serve canopy-data
<mato_>
Does canopy not run as a unikernel?
<yomimono>
not fix the existing VM, which unless engil has a key is impossible
<hannes>
mato_: it does for me.
<yomimono>
mato: my thought exactly, I would think we could fix this that way
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<mato_>
precisely, there are several of us here that have capacity to deploy unikernels
<hannes>
I can also host more Canopy unikernels (have a machine, IP, and bandwidth)
<mato_>
^^^^
<avsm>
the one deployed on canopy.mirage was a unix-www when done
<avsm>
i think there was some problem with irmin/sha on xen, so it wasnt
<yomimono>
avsm: yes, that was before people put in a lot of work to get it running on xen I think :)
<avsm>
if someone else wants to that would be great
<mato_>
so, someone just needs to get the data out of it and into a unikernel version, right?
<avsm>
Yes indeed, that's how old the existing machine is :-)
<amirmc>
Deploying another unikernel elsewhere and updating the DNS might be a solution.
<avsm>
mato_: all the data is on mirage/canopy-data
<avsm>
just needs someone to deploy it elsewhere and i can swap the dns
<yomimono>
do we have a volunteer for that? hannes or mato maybe? most whale people are up against deadlines this week
<avsm>
and update the webhook secret
<mato_>
i know nothing about canopy, but can give it a shot
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<hannes>
but there are some ceveats... the whole DNS setup seems to be a single point of failure... I'm still slightly annoyed that tls.openmirage.org is a A record and fails certificate validation, instead of doing a CNAME record
<amirmc>
Is that a separate issue?
<avsm>
well it's not a single point of failure -- it's just updated via gandi and/or easydns
<yomimono>
amirmc: Yes.
<avsm>
i'd like to delegate those to a unikernel soon as well, but need some new machines provisioned first
<amirmc>
Ok, then lets address them independently. (1) mato will try and deploy canopy elsewhere and avsm will update DNS (2) deal with the TLS issue.
<avsm>
i got packet.net working today (baremetal), and should have an open vlan on ocamllabs.cl.cam.ac.uk soon,thatissuitable
<hannes>
198.167.222.211
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<hannes>
avsm: as offered several times, I do have IP, memory, and even yet another subnet... and can deploy unikernels
<avsm>
go for it -- that's fine for canopy
<hannes>
the above one would be working for your favourite canopy instance
<hannes>
avsm: even for NS
<avsm>
but not for dns; that needs 2 separate nets for the dns authoritative. could use yours+cambridge for that
<hannes>
avsm: I do have 2 separate nets...
<avsm>
let's solve canopy first...
<hannes>
194.150.168.144/28 is the other one
<avsm>
nice!
<hannes>
but atm chasing a network packet bug... and travelling the next days
<avsm>
ok, sounds like mato can deploy canopy then, and then will tackle dns after that works
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<avsm>
hopefully that wasn't mato running away in fear :-)
<yomimono>
this is a concrete task with a person assigned to it, so I'll call it good
<yomimono>
avsm: you have the next item, docs.mirage.io ?
<amirmc>
Agreed :)
<avsm>
am just planning the next iteration of docs.mirage.io
<avsm>
is failing due to one of the minor packages, websocket
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<avsm>
so my plan is to break it up into smaller documentation chunks -- one for the mainstream mirage packages, and remove stuff like the webstack
<avsm>
and slowly re-add things
<avsm>
initially I just added lots of packages so we could get coverage of the odoc tool as it was being developed
<avsm>
but do people generally prefer more packages with slower updates of the site as we fix breakage (which needs to happen anyway!) or fewer packages
<avsm>
note that ocaml/opam-repository now has much better reverse depenedncy testing in the CI, so new packages tend not to break other existing packages as much as they used to
<hannes>
since it does cross-references, at least I'd prefer to have a very mirage-centered (as in: every package in there compiles and is useful for mirage) site
<yomimono>
the site is most useful when it has all of the highly interconnected libraries in it
<yomimono>
(I think I just rephrased hannes)
<avsm>
yeah, in agreement. Most of the packages there fit that bill, and/or are tooling related (e.g. opam-lib)
<avsm>
any thoughts on notifications on build breakage?
<avsm>
i'm rebuilding it every day, but the emails just go straight to me
<hannes>
I don't see a reason to have opam-lib in there. there should maybe be a opam-docs.ocaml.org for that purpose!?
<Drup>
might be useful to have one stable mirage-centric version, and one that contains basically the whole universe
<avsm>
we don't have a choice if we want, e.g. topkg-care in there hannes
<Drup>
(it might be more of a task for the opam ci though ...)
<avsm>
Drup: i did build one that was the entire coinstallable universe
<avsm>
unfortunately it tripped up unexpectedly
<avsm>
we dont check for the coinstallability of _depexts)
<Drup>
oh :/
<avsm>
so the full universe cant have the OS deps satisfied. we need nixos :)
<avsm>
i hand edited it into submission, but need to exert some editorial influence and hand add libs i think
<avsm>
but yes -- docs.ocaml.org will eventually contain such a large hackage-style doc repository
<Drup>
alternatively, separate creation of cmis and documentation generation
<avsm>
yes! this is the sort of thing that needs build system changes -- jbuilder could do that in theory, but not in general for all build systems
<Drup>
the ci creates cm(t)is, sends them to a documentation generator that doesn't need any of the runtime things
<avsm>
hm yeah, we could extract the cmti and generate the odig crc database independently indeed
<avsm>
the opam ci is generating ~100GB of artefacts a day atm :)
<avsm>
ok thanks -- I'll look into that. Good idea Drup!
<hannes>
avsm: I don't see a good reason to have topkg-care in there... as said, I'd prefer to have a docs.mirage.io containing all the libraries which can be used on top of mirageos unikernels, excluding the build supporting and release supporting libraries.
<Drup>
(since opam tracks installed files, it should be fairly easy to see what cm(t)is are produced, as long as opam-ci also tests instalation)
<avsm>
hannes: but then where do we go for the mirage tooling itself?
<avsm>
for the docs
<hannes>
avsm: docs-tooling.mirage.io ?
<avsm>
sure, we could have a separate site
<avsm>
i'll look into making clusters
<avsm>
subdirectories are probably easier given how odig works
<avsm>
the issue then is cross-references wont work across those clusters
<talex5>
avsm: how about using less verbose logging in mirage-ci?
<talex5>
You can still configure opam to dump out the full logs on error.
<amirmc>
I'd like to understand why two docs site would be better than one. cc hannes
<avsm>
talex5: purpose of the CI is to spot the errors, difficult without logging :)
<hannes>
avsm: there are no references _to_ topkg-care from anywhere... and of course you'd have astring etc. installed multiple times
<hannes>
amirmc: since I'm usually interested in what can I use on top of mirageos, rather than a fuzzy collection of libraries, some of which work on mirageos, other don't
<avsm>
i guess. it's not very elegant to repeat the Astring docs in multiple places
<hannes>
(as said, this is my opinion only, and I've to run now)
<avsm>
but they could end up being different versions, so your point is very valid
<avsm>
thanks -- i'll experiment and report back
<Drup>
hannes: isn't all this solved if we get better authoring of documentation based on opam tags, and proper tagging of mirage libraries in opam ?
<avsm>
yes I'll have a play to see if we can cluster the packages effectively with tags
<avsm>
hannes: that's not cross referenced, which was the point of odoc
<amirmc>
This seems like a UI or search problem to me
<hannes>
avsm: I don't think we have a single authority for documentation of a single library
<avsm>
i think we can find something that satisfies all of these constraints -- just needs improvements in the front end generator i expect, to customise larger clusters of libraries
<avsm>
hannes: we do in that they have to be coinstallable with the mirage universe
<avsm>
so (e.g.) cmdliner 1.0 wouldnt have been in docs.mirage.io for a while due to the conflicts
<avsm>
therefore making mirage the authority for the versions in docs.mirage.io
<avsm>
thanks, this is very helpful -- i'll have a play with it next week when I have a bit more time
<Drup>
avsm: btw, about cmis, fabrice proposed to send me all the cmis of all the versions in opam repo, so ocamlpro seems to already have something in place for that
<avsm>
opam-builder and opam-ci would both have that
<avsm>
i could also add in a post-installation hook to record the cmi against its crc
<Drup>
(that was in the context of dowsing, the type-directed search thing I started to work on)
<avsm>
it would be amazing to have an error message directed search :) ("what version of the package do i need to make this damn thing compile")
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<avsm>
I think that's it for docs from me...
<yomimono>
cool, want to tell us about the hackathon writeup blog post then?
<yomimono>
avsm, you put up an agenda item for lwt 3.0.0 (and I see drup is also here who may have something to say about that)
<avsm>
last thing I added was on some big PRs coming into opam-repository that'll affect the package universe. Lwt 3.0 changes the core libraries: https://github.com/ocaml/opam-repository/pull/8956 -- and then I'm also adapting cstruct to make ppx/async/lwt all explicit separate packages, and then Cohttp in a similar style. So there'll be a lot of churn for these and revdeps to be added. So expect a month of packaging noise but hopefully not
<avsm>
the end result is fewer depopts, and more explicit packages (install ppx_cstruct if you want cstruct+ppx, nice and obvious)
<avsm>
e.g. hannes quite reasonably doesn't want a dependency on ppx for his libs, and it's a waste to pull that in as a hard dependency when he just uses the library.
<yomimono>
the move to explicit packages will be great. :)
<avsm>
yeah i'm hoping this will be uncontroversial
<avsm>
but many, many Prs are being merged into opam-repository with constraint fixes, for Core, Lwt versions, so please let any of the maintainers know if you spot problems
<avsm>
that's all from me :)
<amirmc>
Side-question: When is opam 2.0 due to arrive? The beta was a while ago and I assumed it'd be out by now. I've not really kept up with discussions btw.
<Drup>
lwt is not (yet) completely splitted
<avsm>
amirmc: the beta is still being iterated on, so "this summer" is a rough estimate
<Drup>
(like, I think ppx is not separated ?)
<avsm>
especially opam build is being changed due to feedback
<avsm>
Drup: yeah it would be great to separate that out
<Drup>
avsm: you need to mention that to anton on the bug tracker
<avsm>
Drup: I'm waiting for the current wave of splits to be solved first :-)
<Drup>
issue is that it breaks everything each time
<avsm>
that's true
<Drup>
so it might be better if you really want it to yell now, before 3.0 is in opam repository
<avsm>
commented, thanks!
<Drup>
in general, the current way the split is done is .. hackish. Cf last week's discussion about jbuilder
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<yomimono>
that discussion seems concluded!
<yomimono>
any other business?
<avsm>
lots of hacking to do! quite fun using mirage3 at the moment :)
<avsm>
thanks everyone!
<yomimono>
indeed, thanks folks! :)
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* Drup
goes back to thesis writing
<yomimono>
oof, best of luck to you, Drup
<thomasga>
Drup: fun time :p
<Drup>
it's progressing at the dignified speed of a lazy elderly elephant.
<yomimono>
I hope it's less stubborn than a camel
<avsm>
Drup: this is the time of your greatest procrastinati^H^H^Hcreativity
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