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<dbotton>
is there a way to specify a parameter of a lambda that will not be used so that you don't have to use a declare to indicate to the compiler to ignore
<dbotton>
like a (lambda (_)(something)) and compiler knows that _ is just a filler
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<beach>
No, an IGNORE declaration is the way to do it.
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<no-defun-allowed>
There may be a macro in some utility library that understands _ or some other "don't care" name, but not in Common Lisp.
* no-defun-allowed
thinks ~ looks better than admittedly; there are enough-of-these-hyphens that looks weird.
<no-defun-allowed>
My underscores disappeared. But you get the idea.
<dbotton>
there may be a better way I am sure, haven't thought if it yet
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<dbotton>
any ideas?
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<dbotton>
worse part is on scbl a (declare (ignore tmp)) doesn't work except for the first one
<dbotton>
(at least the version on this pc using for now)
<beach>
In a case like this, I would probably use a LET with only the variables I meant to use, and then use SETF in the body, and just not set anything when the value is to be ignored.
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<beach>
Even with some special syntax, it is ugly as it is, because you have forms in a position where the value is used, even though the value is NOT used.
<pillton>
I assume that CREATE-BF, CREATE-SECTION, etc.. mutate the first argument?
<dbotton>
no
<beach>
Probably just use it.
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<beach>
dbotton: So do (let (header data-area fcontainer....) (setf header (create-section...)) ...)
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<dbotton>
for sure can do that
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<beach>
I haven't checked the details, but you could probably separate it into 3 LET forms like that.
<beach>
Then you won't need form2 and form3.
<dbotton>
in this case of course, but this is just a tutorial for the api
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<beach>
dbotton: The idiom (let (var1 var2 ... varn) ...) means you are creating lexical variables that you intend to assign to before you use.
<dbotton>
would be nice to have a way to do in one swoop. but i understand
<dbotton>
the second reason for lots of ignores are the "handlers" (lambda (obj)()) is very common you won't use obj
<dbotton>
but that is one ignore
<dbotton>
not end of world
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<dbotton>
I wanted it to feel more lispy using setf properties
<dbotton>
maybe a few things can think about gleaning from your idea
<Nilby>
SGML was only invented, instead of just using Lisp, becasue they thought non-programmers couldn't use Emacs and would get confused/scared by "))))))))" at the end of documents.
<dbotton>
I hear ya
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<beach>
Nilby: Like I often say, people go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp.
<v3ga>
hmm, speaking of learning common lisp. can anyone recommend any good projects to read over that showcase good practices? I'm mostly interested in web dev so at the moment this seems nice buyt i'm just looking for variety. https://github.com/cicakhq/potato
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<Nilby>
beach: Now that normal humans don't code even write html anymore, and everything is crammed full of javascript, I think eventually the world will come around to web in lisp because of uniformity of syntax. But maybe not before going through a round of web as assmebly language.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I can count the people who would disagree with that statement on one finger.
<Nilby>
no-defun-allowed: It's just the people I didn't mention, inclusing myself.
<no-defun-allowed>
And someone decided that we shouldn't compute on computers, rather we should simulate ink on tree shavings. This set networking back 30 years or so.
<v3ga>
Nilby: lol, thanks. I'll pull them and take a look
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<Nilby>
"ink on tree shavings" will be the name of my next web framework.
<no-defun-allowed>
For once, I am considering trademarking that.
<no-defun-allowed>
It is meant to be insulting - whoever wrote the book "The web was done by amateurs" didn't get it either.
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<beach>
Of course "amateur" means a person performing some activity out of love for it, and "professional" means a person to performs an activity for money. My preference is clear.
<no-defun-allowed>
That is one interpretation, yes. Kay's interpretation was that "amateurs" don't do their homework (he then says they failed at OS design). My interpretation is that an industry has to be invented from hiring professionals to clean it up anyway.
<no-defun-allowed>
The previous utterances might disambiguate that: "The Internet was done so well that most people think of it as a natural resource like the Pacific Ocean, rather than something that was man-made. When was the last time a technology with a scale like that was so error-free? The Web, in comparison, is a joke. The Web was done by amateurs."
<splittist>
I still can't believe the industry has to give tests when hiring software 'engineers'.
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<beach>
I think we need to find two different words for what is usually meant, like for instance "incompetent" and "competent". The correlation between those two and "amateur" vs "professional" is not clear at all.
<no-defun-allowed>
Sure.
<beach>
splittist: I can believe it, and I know at least one reason why. I mean, I have a very good idea of the competence of our graduates.
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<polezaivsani>
Anybody know here of anything akin to bitlbee in lisp land? Am a bit reluctant to fix C bugs now and was wondering if doing that in lisp would be good idea...
<no-defun-allowed>
What's bitlbee?
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<beach>
Oh, the things #lisp participants are supposed to know.
<no-defun-allowed>
The IRC<-other protocol gateway that lives at bitlbee.org?
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<polezaivsani>
yeah, sort of bridge from <lots of im/chat protocols> to irc
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<polezaivsani>
... and back, as in a decent enough bridge :)
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* engblom
used bitlbee for many years until all his friends moved over to facebook and he did not want to have anything to do with facebook.
<engblom>
I wonder what could be done so people would come back to IRC.
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<polezaivsani>
engblom: the idea of brushing up email and irc gives me a good humoured chuckle :)
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<polezaivsani>
imho, living my dream feels like an easier and more enjoyable thing
<splittist>
shinmera seemed to be doing stuff with bitlbee
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<VincentVega>
Who do I contact to let me fork projects on gitlab.common-lisp.net? And did anyone have any success disabling endless prompts for 2f authentication?
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<phoe>
VincentVega: #common-lisp.net - look for ehuelsmann there
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<VincentVega>
phoe: thanks, I will try again there then...
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<xvzf>
I'm to look at LISP concurrency implementations. For a starter, the simpler the better. Can you recommend me a research paper on that? I am interested in uniprocessor concurrency.
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<beach>
What is meant by "uniprocessor concurrency"?
<xvzf>
In contrast to multiprocessor concurrency, where there are multiple processor cores that handle separate threads. So only one processor core and threads are running time-shared on that.
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<beach>
I am puzzled...
<beach>
What aspect of such a thing are you interested in?
<xvzf>
What LISP primitives do you need to implement threads and message passing between them?
<beach>
OK, let's back up a bit.
<mfiano>
I think you were looking for ##lisp
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<beach>
We haven't written the name of the language in all capitals for decades.
<xvzf>
Sorry about that.
<beach>
xvzf: Also, there is no such thing as message passing between threads.
<mfiano>
This channel is about Common Lisp. Do you mean "lisps" or "Common Lisp"?
<beach>
xvzf: You would pass objects between threads by storing them in a shared variable.
<beach>
... or a shared slot of a shared object.
<xvzf>
In other types of functional programming it is possible to pass values on channels: Erlang, Concurrent ML.
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<beach>
xvzf: Common Lisp threads run in a shared address space, and values in Common Lisp are (semantically speaking) references to heap-allocated objects. You would never copy an object when you pass it to some other thread.
<mfiano>
You still didn't answer if you are looking for an answer in terms of lisp or Common Lisp
<xvzf>
lisp is enough for me. The simpler the better.
<beach>
xvzf: And Common Lisp (nor Lisp in general) is not a functional programming language in that sense. Identity matters, so objects are never implicitly copied.
<mfiano>
Lisp is not a well defined term. You'd have to be specific as to which dialect, and that is off-topic here. Common Lisp does not have any notion of green threads, fibers, or any of that in the standard.
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<xvzf>
Thanks for mentioning green threads and fibers, I did not know these terms
<mfiano>
I think you may find some knowledge down that path. Another useful term would be "continuations"
<xvzf>
I learned that while reading about SML/NJ's implementation of Concurrent ML.
<digikar>
While I maintained a fork for personal needs in recent months, I don't find myself experienced-enough and feel something important like trivial-types should be maintained by the community or at least someone more experienced, and wondered if sharplispers (or are there other groups?) could take over the maintenance...
<phoe>
a brief quicklisp-stats query tells me that trivial-types is the 24th most downloaded system
<phoe>
might be worth to fork it into sharplispers
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<polezaivsani>
I get some ill effects when using setq'ed symbols in the mode-line-format. If i defvar them, it works as expected. I'm reading the manual, but so far can't seem to find any major reason that could explain the difference. Hints welcome :)
<phoe>
polezaivsani: mode-line-format? is that emacs, or something else?
<polezaivsani>
phoe: yep, it's a variable describing how your mode line should get constructed
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<phoe>
you might want to try #emacs then, this place is a Common Lisp lair
<polezaivsani>
ah, sorry, wrong buffer :)
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<nij>
Can I snapshot the state of my repl, and go back to it (exactly it)?
<phoe>
you could do something like forking the process and calling save-lisp-and-die
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<nij>
phoe: I'm aware of that. But why don't people do it more frequently?
<nij>
Won't it be useful? Or it just takes too much space to achieve?
<phoe>
nij: usually people don't do it often because of reproducibility
<phoe>
usually you can write down some commands that, when launched in a clean REPL, will get it to the same state as it is in right now
<phoe>
e.g. when loading systems, and such
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<nij>
i see
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<Nilby>
nij: I think since most use Emacs, in a separate address space, to be useful you would have to snapshot Emacs too and have it synchronized with CL, which I've never heard of anyone doing.
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<Nilby>
When you have you whole development system inside the CL address space then it becomes more feasible.
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<nij>
right
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<Nilby>
For example Lispworks is typically used with all the development tools in the smae address space, so it can be saved and restored.
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<luis>
Do hash-tables ever shrink?
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<jackdaniel>
luis: what do you mean?
<jackdaniel>
remhash removes the element from the hash table, but you already know that ,p
<luis>
jackdaniel: CL's hash-table size grows as elements are added, according to the rehash threshold, but they don't shrink as elements are removed do they?
<jackdaniel>
spec is silent about shrinking the hash table, I don't think that it would be non-conforming if hash tables had shrank
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<luis>
Agreed. In practice, though, they don't shrink do they? They don't seem to for either SBCL or ACL.
<jackdaniel>
I would be surprised if any implementation did that
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<flip214>
is there some dynamic HANDLER-BIND or HANDLER-CASE equivalent? "Dynamic" as "condition selected during runtime", ie. PROGV instead of LET.
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<flip214>
hmm, well, there can just be a general handler that looks at a list to match more fine-granular.
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<Bike>
handler-case and -bind both accept general type specifiers, so you could use a satisfies type if you want
<Bike>
and then have it depend on a dynamic variable or whatever
<flip214>
well, T or CONDITION should be general enough, I guess
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<nij>
Is there a way to inject a command into a running swank server from terminal by something like `emacsclient -e "(slime-inject-swank-server :port 1234 :code "(+ 1 1)")"`?
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<Bike>
would you want that to print 2?
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<nij>
Bike: no. Let's forget about that first.
<nij>
(I'm still struggling with (under a window manager) bind keys to send commands to REPL..
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<Bike>
i thought stumpwm has a shell thing to poke at a lisp from the terminal, but i can't find it now
<nij>
IIRC it's true. But I'm happy with my wm. I might need to take a leap to use it.
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<Bike>
well i just meant looking at what the shell thing does
<nij>
I tried exwm for the past two days, and it didn't work as stable as xmonad. So I stepped back.
<Bike>
rather than changing your entire wm, which would be kind of a weird thing for me to suggest
<nij>
Oh. Maybe I misunderstood.
<nij>
Stumpwm is based on CL, so it's not hard to imagine that it can talk to a swank server quite natively.
<Bike>
i meant like, a terminal terminal
<nij>
Dang! That I didn't know! Will look into it, right now.
<Bike>
well i don't see it on the github unfortunately. hopefully i didn't imagine it
<_death>
you can write that emacs function.. slime-connect followed by slime-eval
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<nij>
Bike, it's ok to have had nice dreams like that. So great that we cannot even tell if it is true or not.