<Xach>
i rewrite it from triple-ancient php to double-ancient lisp
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<aeth>
apparently l1sp.org was down a couple of days ago, too.
<Xach>
jes
<Xach>
all related to my server move
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<aeth>
The CLHS search doesn't seem to support my favorite function, remove-if-not
<aeth>
l1sp does return the results for it
<aeth>
(remove-if-not is the subject of an intense tabs-vs-spaces-level debate over whether or not it should be used because it is probably the most common of the deprecated functions)
<Xach>
weird. that is a bug.
<Xach>
copy & paste error
<Xach>
will fix, thanks for the info
<aeth>
you're welcome
<Xach>
remove-if-not works now
<Xach>
there is no debate, remove-if-not is fine to use
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<aeth>
Xach: uh oh... the REMOVE COMPLEMENT crowd are going to surface now
<no-defun-allowed>
remove-if and remove-if-not are extraneous just do (loop for item in list when (funcall test item) collect item)
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<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: Is there a vector-equivalent to collect, though? remove-if is sequence-generic, not a list function.
<Xach>
aeth: it is not real
<no-defun-allowed>
ooh er
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: Just as a heuristic... you will probably need two implementations for any sequence function since what's best for lists and what's best for vectors tend to be different.
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<aeth>
e.g. the new design of the split-sequence library
<no-defun-allowed>
can't think of a trivial vector specific remove-if
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<aeth>
That's because removing from the middle of a vector is messy if you have to keep the order (if order doesn't matter you just move the last element into the removed element's spot)
<aeth>
If order didn't matter it would just be (subseq foo 0 (- length-foo (1+ matches))) and then overwrite the matches in the copy with the stuff that didn't get copied
<aeth>
With order mattering you'll have to make a new list at the size of (- length-foo (1+ matches)) and then, in a second iteration, copy element-by-element if not a match afaik.
<no-defun-allowed>
is vector-push-extend usually O(1)? could use an adjustable vector and guess the size (eg 1/2 the original)
<Bike>
usually it's amortized constant time, i think. assuming nothing weird happens with the allocation anyway
<no-defun-allowed>
i would think there'd be a bit of moving to extend, dunno
<aeth>
With my approach I guess the second loop would be something like this: (loop :for item :in original :with i := 0 :when (funcall test item) :do (progn (setf (aref new-vector i) item) (incf i)))
<aeth>
You'd get the size of the new-vector with count/count-if/count-if-not
<aeth>
It would be complicated a bit because the type would have to match and there are a lot of 1D array types
<aeth>
(I didn't run that loop, it probably has bugs)
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Josh_2>
Morning
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<no-defun-allowed>
If I destroy a thread (using bordeaux-threads), will locks it held be freed?
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<fe[nl]ix>
no-defun-allowed: no
<fe[nl]ix>
some might, it depends. you can't count on it
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<gaze___>
hey folks, I'm getting back into lisp after a long hiatus and I've hit a bit of a snag. I have a directory with a file called main.lisp and a file called foo.asd... foo.asd contains (asdf:defsystem foo ...). I open emacs, I open main.lisp, I M-x sly, and then I M-x load-system foo, and I get an ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM:MISSING-COMPONENT
<gaze___>
or sorry, sly-asdf-load-ssytem
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<Xach>
gaze___: the directory has to be known to asdf somehow.
<Xach>
gaze___: or there must be some way it can find the foo.asd file through its various ways
<Acru>
hey, I am having a problem with compiling a lisp program: when running it, I include "split-sequence" via (ql:quickload "split-sequence"), but when I complile it i get the error *** - READ from #<INPUT BUFFERED FILE-STREAM CHARACTER #P"/home/antono/Projects/codenchill/median.lisp" @15>: there is no package with name "SPLIT-SEQUENCE", and when I declare (asdf:load-system "split-sequence") I still get the error
<gaze___>
even if foo.asd is in the CWD?
<Acru>
I am really new to lisp package management
<Xach>
gaze___: that's right.
<Xach>
gaze___: you'd have to teach asdf to look there if you like
<Xach>
Acru: the call to ql:quickload does not happen in time for it to make the package name available for reading in the same file.
<katco>
Xach: speaking of, are you aware of a way to configure asdf to always look at cwd?
<katco>
it seems to deal only in absolute paths
<Xach>
katco: one way is to push the symbol 'cl:*default-pathname-defaults* to asdf:*central-registry*
<Acru>
Xach: what can I do to make it work?
<Xach>
Acru: one option is to wrap the quickload form in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...)
<Xach>
Acru: another option is to use a system definition that sets up all the things to load before loading your code.
<Xach>
making a system definition is not too tricky
<gaze___>
Xach: let's suppose I add a (pushnew "~/path-to-project/root/" asdf:*central-registry* :test #'equal) to my .sbclrc... does that mean that it'll find ~/path-to-project/root/project1/project1.asd, ~/path-to-project/root/project2/project2.asd?, etc.?
<Acru>
how would I make a system definition?
<Xach>
gaze___: i use quicklisp so i usually stick projects in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ - those are found automagically
<gaze___>
just to be clear, when you start new projects, you just put them in local-projects?
<katco>
it took me awhile to grok this, but it does explain the different options
<gaze___>
I'm trying to establish good habits in my workflow
<katco>
gaze___: they just need to be under the root of one of the places asdf knows to search for projects. if you're using quicklisp, `local-projects` is one such place
<katco>
i used to put my projects where i liked them to reside and then symlink them to `local-projects`, but i like the conf file solution better
<jackdaniel>
putting there clisp results would make two things happen: charts would be less readable and ecl would look much better in comparison ,)
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<gaze___>
okay, maybe a goofy question but what's the recommended way to patch additional functionality into a library? pzmq for instance doesn't have the encryption functions implemented. Suppose I don't yet want to submit a pull request, I just sorta want to hack the functionality in place for testing and I don't want to edit pzmq itself
<gaze___>
can I just (in-package so-and-so) and go wild?
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<sukaeto>
gaze___: in the past, that is what I've done, FWIW
<gaze___>
nice.
<sukaeto>
(you may want to wait for others to weigh in, just to be safe, though)
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<Bike>
for temporary patching that kind of thing is fine. it gets dicey when you try to maintain it, though.
<gaze___>
oh yeah absolutely.
<gaze___>
no question it's very fragile. I'm just prototyping
<sukaeto>
yeah, it goes without saying that this is not a permanent solution :-)
<gaze___>
sometimes just just want some shit to work... the wrong way.
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<Xach>
gaze___: it's nice to be able to patch the implementation when needed, too
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<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Hi. How get signature callback (function) in SBCL (Common Lisp)? I try: (* func), not working. I defined callback, it: (define-alien-callback ...).
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<anamorphic>
asdf_asdf_asdf: is a callback even funcallable?
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Probably, yes.
<gaze___>
maybe a bit of a contentious question, but is there a way to strip symbol names from SBCL when doing save and die?
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
I give error: "Undefined alien type: ... (* func).
<gaze___>
I know it's impossible to fully stop reverse engineering, but it'd be nice to slow it down a bit.
<gaze___>
and if not with SBCL, is it possible with CCL, CMUCL, one of the more major implementations
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<grewal>
gaze___: Setting debug to 0 and agressively inlining might help
<Bike>
...and i don't think there is any special support for stripping
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
(define-alien-type nil (struct WNDCLASS (lpfnWndProc 'WindowProc))) How pass signature function to type struct?
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<Bike>
asdf_asdf_asdf: can you just use cffi, as several people have now suggested? it's more common and documented.
<anamorphic>
gaze___: maybe you can define your own perverted defun and friends to hash the friendy names
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
(lpfnWndProc <here should be pointer to callback probably>)
<gaze___>
anamorphic: that's really cute
<gaze___>
I'm not entirely sure why the names have to be retained to begin with... isn't SBCL ultimately a compiler?
<gaze___>
well okay... I guess that functionality is retained so you have to go out of your way to break it.
<whartung>
…in an ostensibly interactive environment. where meta data and debug information is always valuable.
<Bike>
indeed.
<Bike>
sbcl is public domain so you can do whatever with it, but it's common to share sources (e.g., quicklisp)
<gaze___>
ah well, employers don't always want the details of the architecture of their hardware being broadcast to the world... so if I'm developing a compiler or something
<whartung>
it would not surprise me if Franz or Harlquins lisp had more aggressive stripping utilities.
<Bike>
i'm not judging you, i'm just saying what you're doing is not how sbcl is usually used, so it's unlikely to be supported particularly, you know?
<Bike>
i'd definitely look more at the commercial lisps for this
<Bike>
they do stuff like avoid distributing the compiler for the sake of their own IP, stripping doesn't seem far off from that
<gaze___>
lispworks has a tree shaker and all that.
<whartung>
Just change the reader to hash symbols that you read in to GUIDs. “EZ! amirite?”
<whartung>
just check the pacakge of the symbol so you don’t mung CLUSER etc. That would probably be Bad.
<grewal>
Change your application design/business model so they never have the executable on a computer they own
<whartung>
burn the code in to a microcontoller.
<anamorphic>
Dongles.
<Bike>
develop a lisp to malbolge compiler
<whartung>
Mind I’m a terrible person to talk to about this, as I don’t grok the fear management is feeling.
<whartung>
that woul dwant to persue this in the first place.
<gaze___>
I mean if even to keep customers from going "ooh there's a lisp interpreter in here" and introducing bugs and complaining to support
<whartung>
(I don’t say it doesn’t exist, I don’t say it’s invalid, I just don’t grok it)
<whartung>
well don’t let them get access to the reader.
<gaze___>
I don't so much mind people having a whack at reverse engineering... it's always, always possible. A bit of friction might be good tho.
<grewal>
Write a lisp minifier
<Bike>
well, like i said, distributed lispworks programs don't have an interpreter or compiler or anything available.
<gaze___>
it's true.
<gaze___>
I might poke around inside SBCL
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<whartung>
can’t hurt it
<gaze___>
trying to figure out how to strip this information might not be a bad way to learn a bit about SBCL's internals... which, ya know hey, if you wanna master a language, master the compiler.
<whartung>
try and make it like headless Forth.
<gaze___>
how many people have tried to write tree shakers for SBCL?
<gaze___>
I feel like this must be a very common question
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<Bike>
i've seen a few attempts, but i couldn't give you a number.
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<Bike>
also, a tree shaker is kind of different, no? if anything, having a bunch of useless things in the image would make it harder to figure out.
<whartung>
I honestly off the top of my head don’t know how to lookup a symbol given the text of it.
<Bike>
maybe you want a tree grower.
<whartung>
yea, you really just want a symbol stripper
<whartung>
a tree shaker removes dead code. but that’s not what you’re asking.
<whartung>
(like the compiler)
<gaze___>
no, it isn't, but it's also a thing that might be nice to have.
<gaze___>
sorry, I'm not being super clear
<whartung>
you want to remove the symbols (or obfuscate them)
<Bike>
eliminating certain things might be problematic. for example, sbcl uses jit compiles for make-instance, so if you're not careful removing the compiler could wreck CLOS.
<gaze___>
oh no kidding? hmm
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<whartung>
that would be a rude shock lol
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<gaze___>
seems like what I wanna do is somehow deep inside sbcl/src/code/target-package.lisp
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<whartung>
if only it turns out to be that easy gaze___
<anamorphic>
gaze___: what industry are you in where your binary needs to be scrubbed like this? (curious, if you don't mind)
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<gaze___>
quantum computing
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<gaze___>
I'm not associated with rigetti, I might add.
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<gaze___>
yeah ok, there's someone called nuke-symbol in there that could probably be used as a reference
<gaze___>
I guess a package encompasses the functionality of a symbol table, is that right?
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<whartung>
packages are part and parcel to symbols
<whartung>
symbols are, at a base level, made of two components: the package and the symbol text.
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<anamorphic>
gaze___: I long time ago juho snellman (I think) posted a snippet on github gist somewhere that did a pretty good tree shake. I don't recall what it did with symbols though and I'm having trouble finding it
<Josh_2>
what are delimited continuations used for?
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<aeth>
Has any implementation tried JITing method calls?
<aeth>
or, I guess generic function calls.
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<anamorphic>
aeth: Like cache method combinations?
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<aeth>
anamorphic: Yes, that might work. I think if you operated under the assumption that in e.g. a loop it's probably going to be the same method call(s) for the same generic function, you'd probably be right more than wrong.
<aeth>
Like if you had a list-or-vector generic, it's probably going to be dispatching on the same class repeatedly.
<anamorphic>
I think most clos impls probably do caching
<aeth>
But you could do proper JIT, too, which I guess would be something like inlining the probable generic function.
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<aeth>
Actually, I'm curious exactly how make-instance is JITed in SBCL. I always thought CL performance kind of fits in this strange world where AOT-everything-but-CLOS makes sense, but I didn't expect an implementation to actually do it.
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<Bike>
Jitting generic function calls is what beach's clos implementation strategy does. Works well in clasp
<Bike>
Sbcl jits make instance by replacing obvious calls with calls to a cached function. Since the function can know the class and initargs in advance, it skips a lot of work.
<aeth>
Is it better for performance to use initargs than your own custom keywords in an initialize-instance defmethod, then?
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<Bike>
I don't understand what you're asking.
<aeth>
It seems fairly common to add keywords to a make-instance with something like (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((object foo) &key
<Bike>
Those methods do more than set slots, though
<Bike>
Or they set slots based on the values of other slots
<Bike>
They do things you couldn't do with just an initarg, i mean
<physpi>
Question(s)
<physpi>
Anyone using projectile and allegro?
<physpi>
(Not using git :( )
<aeth>
Bike: Well, I guess I mean that some (not all) of them probably could be rewritten to have extra initargs instead of adding keys, and use those new slots with those new initargs to set the derived values of the other slots, which is what they're probably doing with the keys.
<anamorphic>
projectile the emacs mode and allegro the lisp?
<physpi>
anamorphic: yeah
<physpi>
I’m trying to figure out how to configure it
<Bike>
Huh??
<physpi>
Without git
<Bike>
what kind of weird initialize instances are these
<anamorphic>
Well projectile doesn't have much to do with Lisp modes in Emacs
<physpi>
I know
<physpi>
Oh duh.
<physpi>
Maybe I should ask in #emacs
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<White_Flame>
Bike_: by "JIT" do you mean the actual call site is recompiled eliminating the function call, or the callee is recompiled and dispatched through an indirecting pointer?
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<White_Flame>
or if not eliminating the function call, eliminating the indirection
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<Bike_>
there's an indirection
Bike_ is now known as Bike
* oni-on-ion
happy with treemacs and raylib
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<White_Flame>
Bike: yeah, actual call site recompilation would be the only way to fully optimize local numeric types and inline small methods. I wonder how big of a change that would be for existing implementations, if it'd basically require a new one
<Bike>
it transforms (make-instance 'name ...initargs) into (funcall (load-time-value (ensure-ctor ...) t))
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