<gaze___>
ooh nice! the lisp dude. How's it worked out? You're using mostly SBCL, right?
<gaze___>
I'd be more keen to adopt it for scientific stuff if I could get a gui and some plotting functionality... is that something you've worked on?
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<gaze___>
I should probably bite the bullet and just try and get qtools/commonqt working but the fact that it only builds with older Qt bugs me a little.
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<stylewarning>
gaze___: We use SBCL and have been experimenting with ECL for some things. Perhaps disappointingly, we haven’t tried building a GUI for anything with Lisp, let alone done any plotting. Most folks just grab for Python/matplotlib and don’t attempt any scientific visualization with Lisp.
<stylewarning>
gaze___: what sorts of things do you want to visualize?
<gaze___>
well... the way we run our experiments (I'm also with a QC group) is we have a script that has a DSL for generating microcode for our feedback controller, and right next to it a function that processes and visualizes the data coming off the feedback controller
<gaze___>
and this has been really useful. It's nice to jump from script to script to tune or to figure out how many averages you need or go "oops I set the frequency wrong let's change that and go again"
<gaze___>
so you might have one for calibrating your separatrix for state estimation which churns the data and plots a histogram, colored by prep state, and then another that just runs a t2 experiment and knows it should fit a decaying sine-modulated exponential
<stylewarning>
gaze___: which QC group? For something like that, if it can be simple, I might try McCLIM.
<gaze___>
is mcclim alive?
<stylewarning>
If it has to be “industrial strength”, maybe use LispWorks. (But improving the OSS ecosystem is definitely desirable.)
<stylewarning>
McCLIM is actively developed yes
<gaze___>
I had no idea! that's awesome
<gaze___>
every 6 months I go to the lispworks pricing page and go "nope"
<gaze___>
maybe for a business it's ok. I just can't swallow it.
<stylewarning>
gaze___: yeah reasonable. You should see what you can manage with McCLIM. I’d love to hear that, esp. if it’s used in the world of QC.
<gaze___>
I'm nearly done with my PhD so I likely won't be starting something new... but I'm always interested in software in science
<stylewarning>
gaze___: you can always contribute to quilc/qvm! (:
<gaze___>
sounds fun, I'll likely pour through the code to see how things are done.
<stylewarning>
gaze___: is any of the SW of your group/PhD open?
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<gaze___>
the controller/compiler isn't... there's little bits and pieces are public
<gaze___>
I think pyEPR is maybe one of the bigger software packages to come from our group
<aeth>
And yes I'm calling this the worst hello world for Common Lisp even though my previous one was (#4f(+++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>+++++.+++++++..+++.>++++[>++++++++<-]>.<<<+++[>--------<-]>.<+++[>++++++++<-]>.+++.------.--------.>>+.<++++++++++.))
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<beach>
Bike: In SICL, CONS cells are not represented the same way as other objects. They are a special case.
<koenig>
Are you the developer of SICL?
<beach>
I am, yes.
<koenig>
I had a brief (~20 minute) look through that earlier today and was impressed.
<koenig>
That is a lot of work!
<aeth>
koenig: Afaik it has been a very long term project of beach's
<beach>
It is, and there is still a lot of work left to do before it is finished.
<aeth>
beach: when did you start?
<koenig>
I am not deeply knowledgeable in Common Lisp, so it is always interesting to me to see code like that. I learn a lot.
<beach>
Good question. 10 years ago or so?
<koenig>
Holy cow. Very nice.
<beach>
I have produced a lot of research results during that time as well.
<beach>
That's an essential reason for the project.
<koenig>
My Common Lisp learning for today was finding out that defun is not in fact a special form.
<beach>
Great! Yes, it's a macro.
<beach>
Typically expands to something like (setf (fdefinition <name>) (lambda (<parameters>) <body>))
<koenig>
Indeed, I was also educated about that. Connecting it to the syntactic sugar of how to implement Scheme's function define was helpful.
<koenig>
The peculiar thing to me is, I know a fairly good amount of computer science. But Lisp is something that I keep unraveling more and more and more.
<beach>
That's good.
<White_Flame>
metaprogramming is the big thing that's really not taught often
<White_Flame>
but the handling of code & data interchangeably also has a lot of overlap with compiler technology and transforms
<koenig>
I've taken a few graduate level compiler construction classes.
<koenig>
I've also written some simple CL macros. But I have to think mindfully about it when I do.
<beach>
Oh, good. You might want to help out with SICL one day then.
<koenig>
Mostly I just need to practice a lot.
<koenig>
Maybe!
<White_Flame>
no, everybody still has to write macros very mindfully ;)
<White_Flame>
especially if they're not degenerately trivial cases
<koenig>
Well you all are very encouraging! Thanks for that. I'm headed to sleep now and will learn more Lisp magic tomorrow. :)
<beach>
koenig: Sleep well.
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<beach>
It looks like I started in 2008.
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<aeth>
wow
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<pjb>
Yes, when you write macros, you have to mind two states at once: the state of the macro itself (macroexpansion time), and the state of the expansion (run-time). At least. Some macros have 3 or 4 levels!
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<aeth>
Anything new in Common Lisp this week?
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<no-defun-allowed>
CLtL 3 got released
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<no-defun-allowed>
in the press conference, Steele said he was very pleased with the new support in CLtL3 for segfaulting, infix notation, manual malloc/free and hygenic macros
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<pfdietz_>
Clicked the link. Got what I expected.
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<no-defun-allowed>
It really is not hard to remember `dQw`. Then you only have a 1 in 32768 false positive rate (if YouTube uses base32 IDs).
<aeth>
the youtube one? I know dQ
<aeth>
It's also a much shorter URL than the current ones so it can't be a current video
<aeth>
hmm, or it's not
<aeth>
It doesn't look like they added length
<pfdietz_>
koenig: defun being a macro means you can play games with *macroexpand-hook* to intercept and modify defun forms, without having to modify the source code in question. Quite useful in some situations.
<no-defun-allowed>
I'm not sure if you can count on that from memory.
<no-defun-allowed>
Given defun usually expands to some implementation-dependent stuff, I would expect implementations do not have to use macros for stuff like that...
<aeth>
Option A: write your own defmacro wrapper that expands into a defun. Option B: Use *macroexpand-hook* to intercept defun forms
<aeth>
I have temporarily modified the source of functions in Quicklisp a few times for debugging (technically that's not even necessary, just being in the right package is, afaik), so the situations where Option B is required must be really rare.
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<pfdietz_>
aeth: the situation is where one is writing tooling that applies to other people's code.
<aeth>
oh
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<schweers>
I have a question regarding restarts on sbcl. I have a funcion which contains the following code: https://pastebin.com/W7gipV0A
<schweers>
I get a warning, that something could not be stack allocated. Can anyone tell me how I might find out what this is about?
<prxq>
schweers: IIRC this is about optimization. Stack allocation is faster.
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<schweers>
Yeah, I gathered that. But I’m not sure what is to be allocated on the stack. I also only get this on restart-case.
<schweers>
I guess that a closure has to be allocated, but I’m not sure if that is what SBCL is complaining about.
<grewal>
possibly, sbcl is able to allocate cloures on the stack
<prxq>
schweers: ist it a warning or a note?
<schweers>
what wonders me is that I’m not compiling with optimizations which (to my mind) warrent such a note.
<Bike>
restart-case expands into something that makes several closures, and sbcl will try to stack allocate them because there's no reason not to
<Bike>
it probably shouldn't bug you about it under low optimization settings, though
<schweers>
I compiled under these settings: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (safety 3) (compilation-speed 0) (debug 3)))
<schweers>
Bike: I wouldn’t have been surprised if this had happened under aggressive settings. I probably would have just ignored it then. But now I am wondering.
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<Bike>
declaring speed 0 seems to be enough.
<Bike>
possibly it notes this when space > speed.
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<Bike>
don't think you need to worry about it, regardless. though i'm not sure why it can't stack allocate this
<Bike>
compiler being dumb, maybe
<Bike>
it also only complains when both restarts are there. if there's just one it's fine
<Bike>
mysterious
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<Younder>
schweers, How strictly does SBCL adhere to these optimization settings?
<beach>
I have the same "problem", and it is not that I worry about anything, but the notes are irritating, because each time I jump and think I might have a warning.
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<grewal>
muffling compiler-notes might help
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<schweers>
Younder: I don’t understand your question.
<beach>
grewal: I guess. Thanks.
<schweers>
beach: That is precisely the reason why I’m asking this question. It seems I’ll just have to live with it.
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<Bike>
might ask #sbcl. i'm not used to seeing notes except under high settings.
<Bike>
i don't understand ir1notify enough to figure out how it decides to print the note.
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<dim>
sb-bsd-sockets:local-socket is not found when using SBCL 1.4.16 on windows, what can I do about that? (it makes loading qmynd impossible and then pgloader too)
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<pfdietz>
Is there Common Lisp support for FlatBuffers? I know there's a protobuf package out there.
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<DXH30>
good morning ?
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<oni-on-ion>
yes
<oni-on-ion>
i mean yes it is a good morning. dont know about FlatBuffers
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<katco>
for you matrix users: experimenting with matrix "communities" (a way to group users, rooms together -- kind of like a slack instance?) https://matrix.to/#/+common-lisp:matrix.org
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<jgkamat>
it's sort of like that, yes. It's more powerful though as it lets you view all the rooms in one view if you want (or only a subset)
<katco>
it looks pretty cool! i've opened it to everyone. if there are missing rooms, please lmk. or is there a way i can allow members to add rooms?
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<pfdietz>
Hmm. environment objects can be put in binary files in clisp and ccl. Not sbcl, in general.
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<Bike>
you're doing some weird things, huh?
<pfdietz>
Ah, what I said there is not true. ccl silently fails, clisp complains.
<pfdietz>
Yes! But I have reasons.
<pfdietz>
The problem here is the lexenv can have function objects in it, and those cannot be put into binary files (as values).
<Bike>
indeed, functions are not serializable objects. depending on how you interpret the standard it might actually be nonconforming for an implementation to let you serialize functions
<Bike>
don't really see much point in that though
<Bike>
environment objects are also dynamic extent so there's some extra diciness there
<pfdietz>
Just put in a ticket for SBCL. I just need lexenvs serialized; it's ok to reconstruct the macro functions (make-load-form would build lambda forms for them).
<pfdietz>
Are they dynamic extent? Implementation dependent.
<Bike>
pretty sure they are (i.e., a user treating them otherwise is UB), let me find it
<pfdietz>
Yes. But then serializing lexenvs is already UB.
<Bike>
oh, yes
<pfdietz>
Even if they were not DE
<Bike>
the macro functions might be closures, so you kind of go back to the start here
<Bike>
or at least closures enough in that they "close over" declarations or something
<pfdietz>
The goal here is to save the context in which a DEFUN (or whatever) is sitting, so it can be redefined later in that context.
<pfdietz>
This means both the compile-time context (the lexenv), and the runtime context (whatever lexical vars are visible there). The latter is a different problem, but also solvable.
<Bike>
and why do you want to do that, again?
<pfdietz>
Mutation testing.
<oni-on-ion>
mad science
<Bike>
mutating what?
<pfdietz>
Basically, mutate a function and see if the test suite kills all the mutants. It's a way to evaluate the adequacy of test suites.
<pfdietz>
It's important not to generate too many mutants that maintain correctness, but there are tricks I can use for that.
<Bike>
hrm.
<pfdietz>
Other applications too, like coverage testing, instrumenting code, things like that. Easier on top level defuns, but I want it to work in general with DEF- forms nested inside stuff.
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<aeth>
katco: It doesn't look like there's a way to see the list without logging on. Can you put the list in a pastebin or something so people can tell you if you're missing a Freenode Common Lisp IRC channel?
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<katco>
aeth: i 100% am missing channels. right now i only have #lisp and #sbcl
<aeth>
Just on the top of my head there's #lispgames #lispcafe #ecl #ccl #sbcl and maybe ##lisp
<aeth>
Although #lispgames isn't 100% Common Lisp
<aeth>
Oh, and also #clschool
<katco>
+1 ty
<aeth>
There are others on cliki but a lot of them like #lispweb seem to be dead. https://www.cliki.net/IRC
<no-defun-allowed>
Are we just listing implementations or project rooms too?
<katco>
oh, hrm. i'm not sure the bridge is set up for these rooms. or if i personally have to be in these rooms to add them to the community
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<no-defun-allowed>
katco: +lisprooms:matrix.org
<aeth>
For projects, there's #clim for CLIM and the various game engine projects might have channels. Ask mfiano if First Light has one. I have #zombieraptor and #zombieraptor-dev for my game engine but it's a "bit" quiet (not sure if anyone went to one in a year) so I doubt those should go on any lists.
<sjl_>
there's #stumpwm for us CL window manager users
<katco>
#'no-defun-allowed: oh! alrighty... maybe i should delete this community then?
<no-defun-allowed>
#sicl and #petalisp exist too
<aeth>
pgloader might have a channel. stumpwm and pgloader are the "lots of users" projects
<aeth>
If it has one it's not #pgloader
<aeth>
dim: poke
<katco>
i'm going to piggy back off of +lisprooms:matrix.org and delete mine :) thanks #'no-defun-allowed !
<aeth>
katco: but is that Lisp as in Common Lisp or Lisp as in Lisp family?
<aeth>
Because Lisp family would include ##lisp #scheme #racket etc
<katco>
aeth: mine was geared specifically towards cl, but we're all family being hugged by parens, so ;p
<katco>
#'no-defun-allowed: would you mind adding #cl-ana:matrix.org to your list?
<katco>
or i guess it would be Gnuxie 💜🐝 i should ask
<oni-on-ion>
parenTs ahhhh snap!
<katco>
oni-on-ion: LOL nice one!
<oni-on-ion>
no u =)
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<Gnuxie[m]>
aeth: it includes anything atm
<Gnuxie[m]>
oh wait sorry aeth
<katco>
Gnuxie 💜🐝: would you mind adding #cl-ana:matrix.org to +lisprooms:matrix.org pls?
<no-defun-allowed>
basically the list of rooms my friend and I go on is #clschool #clgames #lisp #lispcafe #scheme #sicl #clim #petalisp #shirakumo #netfarm and ##symbolics2
<katco>
or is there a more self-organizing way for rooms to become part of a community? e.g. maybe adding community flare automatically adds them?
<no-defun-allowed>
nope
<Gnuxie[m]>
I've added it katco
<no-defun-allowed>
matrix is not very self-organising
<katco>
tyvm Gnuxie 💜🐝 !
<oni-on-ion>
Gnuxie[m]
<oni-on-ion>
what is this heart and bee
<Gnuxie[m]>
communites should be replaced with special rooms with weird room state soon but this is meant to have been coming like 6 months
<aeth>
oni-on-ion: I'm guessing there's unicode in the name that doesn't get transfered to the Freenode name
<katco>
oh hm. so it will be more self-organizing in the future?
<oni-on-ion>
aeth, that or katco 's autocomplete replaces with emoji =)
<katco>
it's likely an artifact of the matrix <-> irc bridge
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<Gnuxie[m]>
katco: maybe, we dunno
<no-defun-allowed>
probably yes
* katco
crosses fingers
<oni-on-ion>
no problem, just curious =) refreshing to see images here.
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<aeth>
Lisp = 👾 in Emoji
<oni-on-ion>
thou shalt not formulate images of anything on the earth or in heaven
<aeth>
interestingly, every font (I just saw it in two) interprets "alien monster" differently and the one I'm seeing right now is fairly close to the Land of Lisp form, but in purple and with fewer arms.
<oni-on-ion>
purple here, more like space invaders ?
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<aeth>
yeah, a bit like space invaders. We might have the same font for that
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<oni-on-ion>
👽
<oni-on-ion>
i think so. i see a webpage showing about 20-30 different alien heads from different ... content providers? ie apple, facebook, google, samsung, etc
<grewal>
For a while, I've wanted to make a "font" that replaces all emoji with their unicode description
<oni-on-ion>
im waiting for the time that each emoji is a whole web page with full html5/css3/js
<aeth>
grewal: Good idea, as long as the description is in :LISP-KEYWORD-FORM
<aeth>
oni-on-ion: my favorite new Emoji will be Tetris.
<aeth>
not a piece from Tetris, the game Tetris :-)
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<oni-on-ion>
aeth, hehe =) its becoming a proglang
<oni-on-ion>
hmm just tried the alien face in my unicode/cairo thing. got to make sure i have the right fonts because its just a box =/
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<aeth>
Usually, your system falls back to another font when the current font doesn't have it, which is why we probably have the same font for emoji because there are only a few of those for desktop. If you're programming with fonts manually, I doubt that happens automatically.
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<oni-on-ion>
aeth, yea i think that too. linux debian here
<oni-on-ion>
aeth, however! a cool thing, is that i've got cairo to opengl native, and also cairo to html5 canvas. quite nice to see; (the only visible difference so far is that "native" cairo does not handle right-to-left text quite right, but i've a workaround)
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