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<hugotty>
grewal: I actually switched from vim to emacs when I learned about emacs lisp after wrestling vimscript for a while. No regrets!
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<hugotty>
the keybindings took some getting used to though
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<aeth>
grewal: maybe vim has org and/or emacs's vim keybindings are org-compatible enough
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<makomo>
grewal: spacemacs. you'll get evil configured for free with sane defaults
<makomo>
i.e. with a lot of "evilified" states by default
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<grewal>
I wasn't expecting this much feedback, and I appreciate it. There are a few org mode plugins for vim. I'll have to check them out. Otherwise, I'm not opposed to using emacs just for this
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<makomo>
grewal: re that it feels like a waste because you already know vim: that's exactly why you should give spacemacs a try :-)
<makomo>
spacemacs is a combo of both: the keybindings of vim (which are imo generally better, but i mix both) + the extensibility of emacs
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<grewal>
I've never felt a need to extend vim. The only plugin I have is slimv. My .vimrc is 10 lines. Occasionaly I have to change some indentation or syntax highlighting rule, but I've never needed to write any vimscript or anything. I understand that this might fall under the sunk-cost fallacy. I suppose I'll try all these options over the next week or so
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<p0a>
Hey everyone!
<minion>
p0a, memo from pjb: don't use EQ. This prevents your programs to evolve toward using numbers or characters in place of symbols (who knows what type of objects you'll have to process later). Instead, use EQL.
<p0a>
I finally wrote my program that I told you yesterday
<p0a>
the number guesser. anyone remember?
<p0a>
How do you memo someone with minion?
<beach>
minion: memo for p0a: Like this.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell p0a when he/she/it next speaks.
<p0a>
Like that?
<minion>
p0a, memo from beach: Like this.
<p0a>
:D
<p0a>
thanks beach
<beach>
Anytime!
<beach>
You can use /msg with minion, and one of the things you can do is ask for "help".
<beach>
No need to make such a dialog public, though.
<p0a>
right, makes sense
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<p0a>
im just adding the final touch to this program
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<p0a>
If you don't want to run it just take a look at the EXAMPLES section
<p0a>
it's an alpha version of what I envisioned but there you go
<beach>
Comments at the top level start with three semicolons.
<beach>
... or four sometimes.
<p0a>
What is the top level?
<p0a>
Okay nevermind, you mean outside of anything else
<beach>
The stuff that starts in column 0.
<beach>
Yes.
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<p0a>
Start with three semicolons or persistent throughout?
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<p0a>
;;; line1 ;;; line 2 or ;;; line1 ;; line2 ?
<aeth>
;;;; at the start of the file, maybe... kind of 50/50. then ;;; every other line comment starting at column 0. ;; every other line comment. ; every end of line comment
<aeth>
Whoever complained two or three years ago here, read that link.
<p0a>
beach: They look ok in my emacs
<beach>
p0a: Then you need to untabify your buffer.
<p0a>
alright let me see
<beach>
p0a: The repetition of (cons <mumble> (make-instance 'operation :name <mumble>> :arity ...) calls fora function definition.
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<aeth>
p0a: anyway, the only thing people like to argue over is ;;;;, everything is is pretty established convention
<p0a>
beach: good point
<beach>
p0a: As in (defun make-operation (name arity function) (cons name (make-instance 'operation :name name :arity arity :fn function))) or something like that.
<p0a>
beach: I will add a comment for now and think about it later
<beach>
p0a: Any time you detect a repeated pattern like that, you should think about some abstraction.
<aeth>
p0a: when you have multi-line docstrings, especially at the start of functions, you can style them like this: "<newline>Start your actual documentation here.<newline>
<p0a>
oh right
<aeth>
i.e. with a leading newline so they all have the same indentation level
<beach>
p0a: It is preferable to create a function if that is possible. Sometimes a macro definition is required.
<beach>
p0a: In other languages (without macros) such "boilerplate" code can sometimes not be avoided, but in Common Lisp it is nearly always possible.
<p0a>
right
<aeth>
p0a: in one of your LOOPs you can replace :do (unless ...) with :unless
<p0a>
right! lol
<aeth>
(personally I keyword all of my loops for clarity because then the pseudo-keywords of LOOP get syntax highlighted like keywords)
<p0a>
ok, then maybe I'll leave it like this
<p0a>
for now I'm just wondering how crappy the algorithm is. There has to be ways to cache some results and do some other tricks
<p0a>
In particular the list of ASTs can be precompiled, I think
<p0a>
I'm really not sure how to avoid dividing by zero and other stuff like that though
<aeth>
p0a: you have "(list<newline>" but I see "(list item<newline>" more often. I also see in choose-n you use "(if test then<newline>else)" which is weird. Usually it's a one-liner (so "(if test then else)") or it's styled "(if test<newline>then<newline>else)"
<aeth>
(pretend the indentation in my code lines up too, it's hard enough to put in a newline substitute)
<p0a>
yeah I find it hard to be consistent in style
<p0a>
unfortunately
<aeth>
it takes practice
<p0a>
I'll add a note about those style remarks too
<aeth>
p0a: It might be a good idea to use a github gist instead of pastebin because those have history and proper (well, not *entirely* perfect) Lisp syntax highlighting.
<p0a>
Right, that's a good one too. I wll try to first soup up the code a bit
<p0a>
wth the comments here
<p0a>
this code is not bad
<p0a>
but I'm realizing that it's kind of silly
<p0a>
that I'm generating all possible expressions
<p0a>
I could just use rational multinomials P/Q of all the defined constants
<p0a>
Although that misses some expressions like sqrt(2). hm.
<p0a>
aeth: I guess what irks me with indentation is that (list item1<newline>item2 does not align item1 with item2
<p0a>
is that a feature or what?
<p0a>
nevermind, it does. I'm just too tired. well, thank you for spending time looking over my code
<p0a>
also choose-n has a slight bug
<p0a>
or rather, nevemrind I'm just too tired
<aeth>
p0a: item1 and item2 will be aligned, if emacs is properly configured. I just didn't bother to put in <press your tab key> after <newline>
<aeth>
tab might also not be required
<p0a>
lol wtf with minoin
<p0a>
hahaha
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<p0a>
multiple help modules
<p0a>
hahahaha
<p0a>
oh nevemrind me lol I was sending `minion help memo' to minion and it kept telling me to stop playing with it
<p0a>
but apparently I should've sent `help memo' instead
<p0a>
I thought someone was pulling my leg
<p0a>
alright, got to go
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<asarch>
macroexpand over define-application-frame
<asarch>
I guess this line: (DEFCLASS SUPERAPP (STANDARD-APPLICATION-FRAME) NIL
<asarch>
ALEXANDRIA?
<asarch>
Anyway, thank you very much guys
<asarch>
See you later :-)
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<beach>
I am looking at DECLARE in relation to the kind of forms it can appear in. Clearly, the SPECIAL declaration behaves differently if it is free or bound. Also it changes the semantics of the code that it applies to.
<beach>
But what about the others? Can the occurrence of any other DECLARE form be wrapped in LOCALLY together with the form it appears in, effectively making it a free declaration?
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<phoe>
Package-local nicknames for CCL seem to be merged now.
<phoe>
Big thanks to pfdietz, rme, and Matt Kaufmann who helped test the hell out of it and help me from maintainers' point of view.
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<savolla>
WHY?
<phoe>
savolla: !?
<savolla>
why do you use lisp guys?
<beach>
*sigh*
<phoe>
savolla: because I enjoy it and I find it useful
<moldybits>
savolla: context for that question?
<savolla>
I'm not hating. I'm just wondering
<phoe>
savolla: I enjoy it being a programmable programming language, hence it easily adapts to different problems
<savolla>
phoe: how do you find that useful?
<phoe>
this, and there's a lot of things in the base language that are decent - it's easy to mix functional and OO paradigms, CLOS is a very good object system, the language is interactive and I can code my program incrementally without closing the Lisp image at all
<phoe>
the debugging/inspecting/stepping/recompiling facilities are also a pleasure to use
<phoe>
that's for the biggest parts
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<moldybits>
for me, lisp is the default. it's the other languages that need justification.
<beach>
moldybits: Right on the nose.
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<moldybits>
but it's difficult to answer without knowing where you're coming from. whence the curiosity?
<savolla>
okay what I get is that this language is sefl programmable and interactive. I'm also using emacs and made some scripts in elisp. My real question is that can you guys show me a big projects that written in lisp? I want to see what this language can do
<beach>
It's a typical troll-ish question, so I am waiting to see how serious savolla is about wanting to know.
<savolla>
beach: I'm not trolling
<phoe>
savolla: the biggest ones I think of are Lisp implementations itself
<beach>
savolla: Good to know.
<phoe>
and these are basically programming language compilers
<phoe>
these are written in Lisp with some C for GC and OS interaction
<savolla>
phoe: thank you
<phoe>
and also pretty damn good and complicated Lisp codebases
<phoe>
especially SBCL since it is somewhat optimizing, so it does advanced stuff with the code it compiles
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<phoe>
savolla: so yeah, hope that somewhat answers your initial question
<moldybits>
i guess i like the introspective/interactive quality of it. that's enough for me to not even consider something else unless there's a specific reason to. usually libraries/batteries.
<phoe>
...that can't be used via CFFI for some reason
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<moldybits>
i'm just a hobbyist, and i don't do big projects, so if i know how to do it quickly in another language ...
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I saw someone mention on Twitter that when Google tried to rewrite ITA Software's lisp codebase in C++, the resulting C++ codebase was about 10x larger and not much significantly than the lisp version
<phoe>
aeth: it's not really a code golfing exercise
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<beach>
savolla: Anyway, my answer to your initial question is "because I have carefully studied several programming languages, and used several of them, sometimes professionally, and I have come to the conclusion that Common Lisp is the best of them, at least for my needs."
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<shka__>
Ukari: let does not establish scope during binding variables, but after it
<beach>
Ukari: In case 2, A is a special variable.
<shka__>
damn it
<shka__>
i missed it
<Ukari>
is it possible to make a lexical in closure b in case 2?
<beach>
Ukari: So the LET binding binds A to 0 then to 0 again in the inner LET. It then increments the latest binding of A, creates the anonymous function. Then finally, when the scope of the LETs is abandoned, A returns to its initial value.
<beach>
Ukari: No, once A has been proclaimed SPECIAL, you can't go back.
<beach>
... other than deleting the symbol, etc.
<shka__>
that's the reason behind *special* convention
<beach>
Ukari: As shka__ says, that's why we use earmuffs on special variables.
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<beach>
Ukari: You are welcome.
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<Ukari>
thanks
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<cage_>
so we have package local nicknames in CCL too, right?
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<pfdietz>
Yes
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<jackdaniel>
party time ,-)
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<pfdietz>
It might be useful for bindings to a non-earmuffed special variable give a style warning unless the binding itself has an explicit special declaration.
<cage_>
may congratulations to all the people that worked on that :)
<cage_>
*my
* jackdaniel
tries not to joke "april congratulations too!" ;)
<cage_>
:D
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