<python476>
I wonder who does research using lisp or lispy languages
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<no-defun-allowed>
i know of a few research projects in CL being undertaken now, SICL is a CL implementation and Petalisp is a high performance matrix math computing library, and a lot of research in AI and high level languages has been done in Lisps
<python476>
oh right I've seen the petalisp paper somehow.. how stupid of me
<python476>
I should review ELS papers..
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<no-defun-allowed>
yeah, ELS is a good spot to find Lisp research
<python476>
all I've seen lately is the CANDO project and the quantum computer DSL
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<lerax>
PAIP it's awesome, just sharing the love of quality of the CL code written in it.
<lerax>
I hope one day I can read the whole thing and understand it.
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<no-defun-allowed>
god, what is that camelcasing though
<no-defun-allowed>
it's like watching autocad people try to write autolisp
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<dmiles>
i think the prology/data case conventions there were meant to conflict in your mind with the non-data/lisp conventions
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<dmiles>
most of the time if you have (RoundUpFn ...) you have #'round-up supporting it
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<dmiles>
(ParaphraseFn-Constrained ?X ?Y) -> (paraphrase x y :constrained t)
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<dmiles>
you might say that computer hardware is finally catching up to what kinds of things we want to do in lisp
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<loke>
svillemot: the problem, IMHO, is that these packages becomes available to any Lisp appliction, not just pgloader (and others which may be packaged in Debian)
<loke>
These library packages should only be visible to the applications for which they exist (such as pgloader)
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<dtw>
<svillemot "dtw: in Debiar 9, you also have "> Thank you. I am fine with SBCL but it is sometimes useful to test other implementations as well.
<dtw>
svillemot ^
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<svillemot>
loke: This is not how distributions work. Sharing libraries between several applications is at the core of the distribution model (for minimizing disk space, propagating security fixes, standardizing on a single system version…)
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<svillemot>
Note that this tension between the system package manager (apt) and the language package manager (QL) is not specific to CL. It also exist with other languages (Python, Ruby, R, …).
<loke>
svillemot: That runs counter to how Common Lisp development tend to work though. And it's no secret that the current Debian situation causes more problems than it solves.
<svillemot>
IMHO, both systems are useful and serve different purposes. Developers tend to prefer the language package manager, while sysadmins tend to prefer the system package manager.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, except for flatpack and other braindead portability kludges, package managers and their respective distributions are designed to decrease duplicate code.
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<svillemot>
loke: I'm happy to help if you can be more specific about the issues with Debian packages. As dim told yesterday, he has improved the situation a lot, and I'm following on his path.
<svillemot>
For example, in the upcoming Debian 10, all CL packages should be up-to-date and working fine with recent CL implementations.
<loke>
svillemot: well, personally, the most important thing would be that if you have Quicklisp installed, it should never touch the Debian packages but only use QL, when you have a dependency on, say, alexandria.
<xantoz>
flatpak does actually dedup things to an extent, though
<loke>
That's really the main issue.
<xantoz>
NixOS has solved the issue pretty neatly. e.g. for python it packages pretty much everything in pip in nixpkgs
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<xantoz>
I think they use autogenerated code for that
<svillemot>
loke: It's basically an ASDF configuration issue. So you can probably tell QL to do precisely that.
<svillemot>
But I also like the fact that QL is able to only download packages that are not installed via APT. So ideally this should be a configuration switch.
<loke>
svillemot: yeah, that's the problem. The people who suffer from this are precisely the people who wouldn't know how to do that.
<loke>
None of us have any issues with this because we'd never install the debian packages.
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<jackdaniel>
in an imaginary lisp system it should be possible to modify the code of a dependency per-application (or per-user) basis, so file-based global installation wouldn't work well with that
<svillemot>
loke: maybe you could open an issue against QL, asking for a change of the default behavior, i.e. not looking to system directories for ASDF systems by default (but keeping a setting to revert to the previous behavior)
<loke>
svillemot: I could, but IMHO this is a problem on debian's side, as they are the ones messing up normal system loading.
<loke>
Also, I'm not a party to either of this. I just observe the current mess and comment on it.
<loke>
:-)
<svillemot>
I don't see how it "messes": by default ASDF looks to system directories, and distributions are expected to install stuff in system directories
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<loke>
QL doesn't search anywhere exept its own directoris, AFAIK. THis is ASDF we're talking about, no?
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<svillemot>
if I understand correctly, QL adds its own directory to ASDF search path, and then relies on ASDF for loading systems
<svillemot>
the problem that you are raising comes from the fact that /usr/share/common-lisp/ is in the default ASDF search path
<svillemot>
and QL does not chang that
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<splittist>
Good morning.
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<makomo>
morning
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<hectorhonn>
hello everyone
<hectorhonn>
its been a while
<hectorhonn>
anyone know where i can find signed binaries of sbcl for windows?
<hectorhonn>
*installer
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<jcowan>
I could sign them for you if you want
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<moldybits>
this is a bit annoying: (let ((x (list))) (nconc x 1) x) ; => NIL
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<djeis[m]>
All of the args to nconc need to be lists, don't they?
<_death>
the last one needs not.. but you should use its result
<djeis[m]>
That too, yea- nconc is destructive.
<_death>
there's also alexandria:nconcf
<djeis[m]>
But also, x starts out as nil there, so there's no cons cell for it to mutate.
<djeis[m]>
All nconc can do is return 1.
<djeis[m]>
append and nconc basically ignore nil args entirely, cus there's nothing for them to do.
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<moldybits>
ah, nconcf is nice!
<djeis[m]>
Actually, I think you can rely on the side-effecting behavior of nconc.
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<djeis[m]>
The spec explicitly defines its behavior in terms of last and rplacd.
<djeis[m]>
And not just in the examples.
<_death>
still you have the nil problem
<djeis[m]>
True- if the original place held nil there won't be any side effect.
<_death>
and I would say it's bad taste to nconc without using the result
<djeis[m]>
Depends a bit on the code you're writing, but in general yea- you ought to use the result of destructive operations instead of relying on side-effects.
<moldybits>
why is using the result preferable?
<djeis[m]>
Worst case I'd do (setf (cdr (last c)) foo) instead.
<djeis[m]>
Because most destructive functions don't have well defined side-effects, and because of the edge case where the place you're trying to append to holds nil.
<djeis[m]>
Sorry, nconc to lol
<djeis[m]>
If I (let ((x nil)) (nconc x (list 1)) => (1), but x will still be nil.
<djeis[m]>
Oops, missed a )
<djeis[m]>
(let ((x nil)) (nconc x (list 1))) => (1) but x is still nil
<moldybits>
is it considered good style to use-package alexandria? as opposed to accessing it with the alexandria prefix.
<_death>
my rule is to onle use CL and packages that I control.. otherwise I usually import-from
<_death>
*only
<djeis[m]>
If there were any package I'd consider it okay to use I'd say alexandria, but I generally don't.
<_death>
don't you think it's conceivable that they'll add more symbols to be exported?
<djeis[m]>
Ofc, I sometimes break portability and use local nicknames, so I'm probably not the best person to ask.
* djeis[m]
can't wait for CCL to merge p-l-n
<djeis[m]>
With the speed at which alexandria moves? Seems unlikely to me...
<_death>
it has happened before.. ;)
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<djeis[m]>
Well, for the specific code in which I've used the alexandria package, if that eventually leads to a conflict I'm willing to have to deal with it then.
<djeis[m]>
But as I said, I almost never use packages anyway.
<_death>
it may not lead to conflict, but to redefinition, which can make it hard to trace the issue.. this has happened before
<djeis[m]>
On SBCL the alexandria package is locked, if memory serves.
<djeis[m]>
That won't catch everything, I know.
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<djeis[m]>
But it's enough for my peace of mind, for the small bits of personal code where I've cut that corner.
<Ukari>
I have some doubt about function naming. I found 'queue-empty-p' is a widely used name for queue empty predicate, then is 'heap-empty-p' a suitable name for a heap? and is 'ring-empty-p' a suitable name for a circular array? or just use 'emptyp' as a empty predicate is better for all of queue, heap and circular array? or use 'empty-p' instead?
<djeis[m]>
🤷
<djeis[m]>
Ukari: Um... let me find the cliki page on naming conventions for you...
<djeis[m]>
Whether you want to provide a generic emptiness check or specialized ones is fairly specific to your application tho, not a lot of generic advice to give there.
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<jcowan>
I never noticed the convention about def vs define- being like p vs -p.
<shka__>
emptyp, not empty-p
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<pjb>
there's also a newness and some packing factors involved. For a new defining macro you would be tempted to use define- more than def, and more so if you expect it to be rarely used.
<pjb>
define-universe ; used only once. defspecies ; used thousands of times.
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<pjb>
Ukari: note that the rule of p vs. -p is not trivial: string-lessp because it's the lessp for a string. What does it mean to be ring-empty or to be queue-empty?
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<pjb>
Ukari: if you want the emptyp operator for a ring or a queue, it should be ring-emptyp and queue-emptyp
<pjb>
On the other hand, if you want to test for the more-optimized-speed it will be more-optimized-speed-p
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<Ukari>
thx, this is helpful
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<pjb>
with define- you would use in-extenso name, while with def, you can use abbreviations or even puns. What's those UNs we keep DEFining all the time with DEFUN?
<pjb>
(uncall (unction foo)) :-)
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<moldybits>
lol
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<beach>
Luckily, NCONC is not able to change NIL into a CONS cell.
<dlowe>
uncall sounds like an intercal keyword
<dlowe>
I guess it would revert all state changed by the function
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<nwoob>
I apologize if what i'm about to ask has been asked many times and you guys are fed up with these type of question.
<nwoob>
I want to learn a different paradigm language and I stumbled upon CL and posts and answers saying how great CL is and it has features which todays languages are still catching up to. One must learn lisp to become a good programmer.
<nwoob>
I want to simply know (if possible) will I learn things that I won’t be able to learn in other languages? Is learning CL still beneficial in 2019
<nwoob>
sorry if this is a stupid question
<splittist>
Learning CL in 2019 is still beneficial. There. I said it.
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<jcowan>
nwoob: Definitely. A great many things that have to be laboriously worked around in other languages are already built into Common Lisp, or can easily be implemented. It's called "the programmable programming language" (see the topic line) for a reason.
<nwoob>
do we have good library support
<splittist>
CL has better lambda-list processing libraries than most C-like languages...
<splittist>
nwoob: do, or do not, there is no try. Commit to learning CL on its own terms for period. If it grabs you, great. If it doesn't, you'll have learnt something about yourself and CL. The biggest mistake when learning CL seems to be trying to understand CL concepts in terms of things you already know.
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<nwoob>
it does grab me. I have actually started learning it and i must say i have never enjoyed learning something this much
<nwoob>
I have read 6 chapters of CL: gentle introduction to symbolic computation
<nwoob>
with exercises
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<pjb>
nwoob: you may use #clschool to get help learning CL. (or here too)
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<polezaivsani>
that looks tasty! thanks a ton moldybits
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<Demosthenex>
i've now coded a proof of concept for a CRUD TUI in both npyscreen in python, and tview in go... and i just keep beating myself up for not using lisp. ;] have i missed a tui library for CL?
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<Josh_2>
Like ncurses?
<Josh_2>
cos there is a ncurses library
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<Demosthenex>
Josh_2: yeah, but the form's portion wasn't there last i checked.
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<Demosthenex>
there's a big difference between having a screen control lib and having editable widgets
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<pjb>
Josh_2: the current ncurse library in cl is named cl-charms.
<verisimilitude>
If you don't want to use Common Lisp linking to C, there's my ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL, Demosthenex.
<verisimilitude>
It's actually written in Common Lisp.
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<Demosthenex>
i've looked at cl-charms and croatoan, didn't quite fit. verisimilitude yours was just character control again... i didn't want to reinvent the wheel just to update a tiny DB over ssh.
<pjb>
Josh_2: also, in clisp, there's an implementation dependent SCREEN package, which is very simple to use.
<Demosthenex>
i've started looking at emacs' widget lib.
<pjb>
Josh_2: and finally, you can just use ECMA-048 codes. (several libraries provide them)
<verisimilitude>
How amusing, considering mine is less than 400.
<verisimilitude>
It's got a good license, though.
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<pjb>
verisimilitude: it includes the standard itself! and generates the code from the standard.
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<pjb>
ok, a sexpified form of the standard, but it's basically a copy-and-paste, and some search-and-replace.
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<verisimilitude>
I specifically didn't want to create a derivative work of the standard document in this way.
<pjb>
This is why I don't mind duplication of libraries.
<verisimilitude>
I wonder if this performs the same optimizations of the control sequence that mine does.
<pjb>
I have more options.
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<pjb>
7-bit/8-bit, bytes/characters stream/vector
<verisimilitude>
Is this the only other implementation of the ECMA-48 standard in Common Lisp?
<pjb>
As a complete implementation, AFAIK yes.
<pjb>
But there may be some partial ANSI code stuff here or there.
<verisimilitude>
Well, sure, there's partial implementations littered all about.
<verisimilitude>
;; TODO: We are asuming ASCII with these FORMAT!
<verisimilitude>
That's interesting; mine doesn't assume the character encoding in any way.
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<pjb>
It should be documented, since it's a criteria of choice.
<verisimilitude>
What do you mean?
<pjb>
Users may want to chose one or the other depending on these informations.
<verisimilitude>
You mean between mine and this?
<verisimilitude>
Sure, I can see that.
<pjb>
Note that the ideal situation for me would be to just parse the standard text and generate the code from it, not to include it as sexp. But there are always irregularities…
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<verisimilitude>
That's one way to do it. It was much easier for me to simply write it out in a machine-readable way once and let that be it.
<pjb>
I'm lazy.
<verisimilitude>
I see this supports the seven-bit and the eight-bit forms; I've been mulling over how to elegantly work that into mine, but haven't done so yet.
<verisimilitude>
I'm also lazy, which is why I didn't write code to parse a standard document.
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<verisimilitude>
It doesn't seem this implementation performs the same optimization mine does.
<verisimilitude>
It looks like it unconditionally prints the arguments in every case.
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<vms14>
guys, I wanted to make a final project about lisp, but the teacher switched projects between students. So everyone has the project of another student
<Josh_2>
oof
<vms14>
mine was about common lisp so my programmer made a page about lisp
<vms14>
I'd like to make a short text and make readers being interested in Lisp
<vms14>
Josh_2, he just put lorem ipsum to all the page waiting for my text
<Josh_2>
oof
<Josh_2>
wouldn't it be better for that person to go learn about lisp themselves, then they might want to actually learn lisp
<vms14>
Josh_2, yeah, but I guess this thing won't happen
<vms14>
also, he would just copypaste some content without reading
<vms14>
my text is in spanish, my english sucks a bit
<vms14>
but the goal is make people be interested in lisp
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<Demosthenex>
jexer in abcl looks interesting
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<vms14>
idk what I should put to improve it
<Josh_2>
maybe add some code examples
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<vms14>
I've put things like "Common Lisp is very good when you need a program which changes and evolves."
<Josh_2>
Something that blew my friends mind was showing small examples using ' and , to control evaluation
<vms14>
Josh_2, yeah, but should be easy to understand and also show the power of lisp
<vms14>
and usually you cannot see its power until you understand lisp
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<vms14>
I have 3 slots in my "programmer"s page and I thought I could put some code, like C code, lisp code and other language, doing the same thing
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<vms14>
what I could put as code example to show that with other languages would be a pain and make that code examples short at same time?
<makomo>
vms14: i'm going to be in the same position in a month or two and i've decided to just go straight for macros
<Josh_2>
Show doing something that would practically be impossible in C without writing a lisp xD
<Josh_2>
ie defmacro haha
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<vms14>
makomo, right. Macros are a very characteristic feature of Lisp
<makomo>
i won't have much time but i don't want to beat around the bush anyway
<makomo>
from a lot of tutorials/introductions i got the impression that they always talk how cool lisp macros and code transformations are, but never actually show any cool/worthwhile examples
<vms14>
makomo, usually is because you cannot show how powerful it is if the reader does not understand some stuff first
<makomo>
yeah, that's very true
<jasom>
well, I *love* macros, but maybe 1% of the lisp code I write is macros. It's one of those "glad it's there when I need it" but not "use everyday" sorts of things.
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<makomo>
so i'll have to think thoroughly how to structure my presentation to cover just enough so that people can understand macros
<Josh_2>
I've pretty much just used macros to abstract away syntax cos muh patterns
<makomo>
preferrably without any lame analogies and just going straight to the point
<jasom>
SETF is a good example of a macro that is relatively easy to understand what it does
<makomo>
indeed, SETF is neat
<vms14>
the teacher fucked me by switching the projects, I've wanted to use lisp cgi for make an interactive tutorial
<vms14>
Now my project is about the international space station xD
<Josh_2>
oof
<Josh_2>
that sucks
<makomo>
how dumb lol, what's the point of switching projects like that
<vms14>
makomo, introduce us to client-programmer stuff
<vms14>
but meh
<Josh_2>
vms14: maybe there is lisp on ISS xD
<ym>
Hi. What does it mean when place in setf is a list of two arguments and new-value form is a lambda function? Like this: (setf (foo bar) (lambda (x) (foo2 x bar2))
<ym>
)
<vms14>
I've read something like they used lisp at the space, also with a remote connection
<Josh_2>
Yes I read the same
<jasom>
ym: it depends on what FOO is, let me find the spec real quick
<makomo>
ym: the new value being a function doesn't really change anything
<makomo>
s/really//
<Josh_2>
had to recompile something while the rocket was flying cos the math was wrong xD
<makomo>
it could be anything, it doens't matter what it is
<makomo>
doesn't*
<ym>
Sorry, #'(lambda (x) ...)
<Josh_2>
ym: you don't need #' for a lambda
<makomo>
same thing, because (LAMBDA ...) is a macro that expands into #'(LAMBDA ...), i.e. (FUNCTION (LAMBDA ...))
<makomo>
but some of these things you have to know well yourself in order to properly explain them (or at least give a simplified view)
<moldybits>
vms14: you could give an example of using restarts. another thing is something that takes an arithmetic expression (in sexp form) and simplifies it. you could read the expression from a file with read and output it to another file with write.
<vms14>
Although Kantz had developed in similar languages before, he had never used Lisp prior to the CPACs project. Further, Kantz wanted to integrate additional functionality and make the CPACs application easier to debug. From his experience with Allegro CL, Kantz now prefers Lisp over any other programming language, and he believes that using Lisp makes applications much more flexible and easy to design, especially for someone getting up to speed in a new
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<vms14>
pjb, thanks for the link
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<vms14>
moldybits, right idea, restarts are a very interesting thing
<vms14>
there is a language providing restarts too?
<verisimilitude>
The Common Lisp condition system was inspired by PL/I.
<vms14>
the problem is I'm so noob and I can just dig a bit, but I'll make a Lisp page sooner or later
<pjb>
vms14: and in all cases, even if you cannot deliver lisp, you can still use lisp to generate your deliverables. At the very least, use emacs, and write emacs commands in emacs lisp to help you create the deliverables.
<vms14>
so this text I have now needs to improve, but will serve as a base
<pjb>
So you implement in lisp some kind of NLP, build a model of the text, apply some algorithm or heuristics to improve then, and NLP back to generate the improved text?
<moldybits>
vms14: you can write macros for any language, the difference is that lisp makes it easy and, relatively, straightforward.
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<pjb>
vms14: check Natural Language Processing in LISP, Gazdar, Mellish.
<verisimilitude>
The closest thing to Lisp macros in C is an entirely separate program, such as Bison.
<verisimilitude>
That's a very large difference.
<moldybits>
yeah
<vms14>
pjb, I'm reading it
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<vms14>
yesterday I was reading one pdf talking about how to make a program able to understand english with lisp
<vms14>
it was interesting, also huge, like 400 pages xD
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<vms14>
but nice, since it's AI
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<comborico1611>
I am trying to run STEP on a compiled file specifically to avoid the weird inner workings of the REPL. But I'm still getting those inner workings printing from STEP.
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<moldybits>
hm, so i can't/shouldn't use `speed' as a variable/function name?
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<moldybits>
`Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when globally declaring SPEED SPECIAL while in package COMMON-LISP-USER.'
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<jasom>
moldybits: you shouldn't use CL:SPEED as a function or variable name, no. In addition, you also probably shouldn't have any special variables without *earmuffs*
<moldybits>
i'm actually trying to use it as an accessor :(
<moldybits>
(speed snake)
<jasom>
feel free to shadow speed in your package; I think it's only used in declarations
<_death>
moldybits: if you defined a function named cl:speed and someone else did too, there would be a problem..
<pjb>
so animal-walking-speed animal-running-speed animal-swimming-speed animal-climbing-speed might be better names.
<no-defun-allowed>
(defgeneric Δs/Δt (animal) (:documentation "The (maximum) change in displacement over change in time for this animal"))
<jasom>
uiop:define-package has a shortcut for this I think (prefers the first package with the symbol found).
<jasom>
prefixing accessors with the class name is relatively common in CL; it makes some sense both because of the limitations on arity of generic functions and the near lack of types in CL.
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<moldybits>
hm. for this particular case i might actually prefer a cooldown.
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