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<Xach>
flip214: that page does not have anything on it when i go there
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<nwoob>
Lisp exists to show how wrong every other language designer has been.- How true is this statement?
<Xach>
nwoob: it is meaningless.
<Xach>
whether it is true or false will not help you in any way
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<nwoob>
ok
<Xach>
it is a method of calling attention to the person making the statement rather than providing insight
<Xach>
that said, common lisp is the greatest and best programming language
<Xach>
all others are #2 or lower
<nwoob>
as far as i have read all the things except macros have been implemented in other languages
<Xach>
nwoob: do you feel that makes it not really worth the trouble to learn common lisp?
<_death>
other languages don't get as many quality trolls
<nwoob>
Xach: I don't know what makes it worth learning and i want to know
<dlowe>
I feel that a language is more that a pile of checkbox features.
<dlowe>
The most certain way is to learn it
<Xach>
nwoob: it integrates a lot of nice ideas in one place. if you use emacs it is very easy to write in a supportive environment. if you don't, it's still pretty nice.
<schweers>
dlowe: yeah, it’s also a pile of checkboxes of mistakes (not) made :D
<dlowe>
schweers: heh. sure.
<nwoob>
I mean if someone asks you why are you learning a certian language, you must have a response to that right>
<nwoob>
?
<schweers>
learning is something you don’t have to justify
<schweers>
I still want to properly learn and understand (and possibly implement) forth. That doesn’t mean I want to use it every day.
<Xach>
nwoob: the reason doesn't have to be that good, though! "i was curious" or "paul graham told me it would give me a secret weapon for writing web sites" is fine.
<nwoob>
Yeah Paul Graham, i'm here because i read that blog post
<dlowe>
"I like learning things in the expectation that a broader mind is a more effective mind"
<Xach>
that's how i got started, and even though now i think he is a real dud with weird views about common lisp, i'm glad i got started
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<schweers>
Xach: yeah, same here :D
<schweers>
On second thought ... not sure he’s a dud.
<schweers>
but like doug hoyte, he does has something to teach.
<schweers>
Even if one disagrees in the end.
<dlowe>
"Common Lisp is totally amazing, but you should learn my half-baked thing instead"
<Xach>
yes - it's helpful to have a broad context in which to evaluate statements presented as valuable truth
<schweers>
dlowe: LOL, that really sums it up nicely!
<dlowe>
"also, my half-baked thing is boring compared to startups, so I'm only doing startups now"
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<dlowe>
Thanks, pg. Thank you so much.
<nwoob>
is that half baked thing is reference to Arc?
<dlowe>
yes
<jcowan>
I actually implemented a Forth (two, depending on definitions) despite being totally incompetent as a Forth programmer
<schweers>
I’m not surprised that someone here has done that.
<jcowan>
If said by someone else, it might be a reference to Scheme, though there is nothing in CL that doesn't appear in *some* implementation of Scheme.
<dlowe>
jcowan: separate function cells
<jcowan>
True!
<dlowe>
:D
<p_l>
dlowe: arguably existed if one wanted to around R3RS
<schweers>
I think some schemes even have types.
<jcowan>
Oh yes. Chicken, Racket right offhand
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<_death>
gensym?
<jcowan>
Commonplace though not standardized.
<schweers>
racket seemed like such a nice thing. then they completely botched their object system :/
<p_l>
schweers: types are required for both CL and Scheme, now how complex is the implementation is another thing
<schweers>
p_l: sorry, I meant static types as a compiler hint. Not sure how to best put this.
<jcowan>
Type declarations.
<dlowe>
hacket is a thing
<dlowe>
anyway, we're venturing into ##lisp territory
<schweers>
yes, what jcowan said. Also, I don’t know how which scheme handles this.
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<p_l>
I believe R3RS had essentially symbol plists so you could do like old LISP and put namespaces there
<jcowan>
Hackett is S-expression Haskell, as LFE is S-expression Erlang.
<p_l>
LFE afaik is more of a simple lisp that closely follows what's provided by Erlang itself?
<jcowan>
p_l: No symbol properties in R3RS (except name, of course).
<p_l>
maybe it was R2RS
<jcowan>
but Chicken does have symbol p-lists.
<p_l>
jcowan: I'm working off murky memory of my first lisp book
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<moldybits>
nwoob: other languages lack sexps, restarts, symbols, probably more. (i'm a lisp newbie so take that for what it's worth :D)
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<jcowan>
There are many sexp languages now, and symbols are quite common. There is a Scheme implementation of restarts as well.
<moldybits>
and slime and CLOS
<moldybits>
i'm more thinking about langauges like python
<jcowan>
s/slime/geiser
<jcowan>
s/CLOS/various things, but notably Tiny-CLOS
<nalkri>
Guile's Goops is at least ostensibly CLOSsy
<nalkri>
But I don't know it to comment
<schweers>
To get back to topic: has someone else had problems loading closer-mop in abcl on debian?
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<schweers>
huh, the .asd file does look a bit weird to me.
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<Bike>
seems okay to me, other than the clisp thing which is probably due to clisp shipping an old asdf
<schweers>
This is what I get: Error while trying to load definition for system closer-mop from pathname /usr/share/common-lisp/source/closer-mop/closer-mop.asd: Unrecognized keyword argument ("closer-mop-packages" "closer-mop-shared")
<schweers>
I know that debian does some weird stuff to lisp and asdf, but I never figured out what is was.
<Bike>
oh, that's older than the one on github
<schweers>
as I said: debian
<Xach>
fwiw, clisp does not ship asdf at all
<scymtym>
there is no read-time condition for abcl. the form is read as (:file :depends-on ("closer-…" …)), i.e. ("closer-…" …) appears in a keyword position
<scymtym>
probably means closer-mop is too old
<schweers>
But it really does seem weird. As there is no clause for abcl, the last :file should result in (:file :depends-on ("closer-mop-packages" "closer-mop-shared")), right?
* schweers
sighs
<schweers>
so it is because debian ships an ancient version :/
<Bike>
clisp doesn't ship asdf? my mistake.
<Bike>
schweers: oh, you're right. on abcl it will read (:file :depends-on ("closer-mop-packages" "closer-mop-shared"))
<Bike>
so it will interpret :depends-on as a filename
<Bike>
and then the rest is just an error.
<schweers>
Is there an easy way to configure asdf in a way so it will load a different closer-mop implementation?
<schweers>
I think I may have just managed that
<Bike>
nothing about configuring asdf is easy in my experience, so good luck working it out
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<ebrasca>
Here Is my design documentation for FS : http://ix.io/1E2o
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<ebrasca>
I like to read some opinions about it.
<schweers>
meh, now babel doesn’t build :/
<Xach>
schweers: do you use quicklisp?
<schweers>
Xach: no
<schweers>
I first used babel from debian, then tried the version from github
<Xach>
ok. it offers a fairly simple way to make libraries visible via asdf.
<schweers>
I know what quicklisp does. I just don’t use it on this project because I need a bit more control over where my third party code comes from
<Xach>
oh, i mean in addition to the stuff it downloads. the local-projects mechanism is what i meant.
<schweers>
Ah, okay
<Xach>
if you put all your third-party libraries in ~/local-projects/ it would load only those, for example. or if you didn't want to use quicklisp, you could use it to make an empty bundle, and then use the bundle's local-projects directory. there are many other options that don't use quicklisp, too.
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<pjb>
ebrasca: first, why do you want to design a new file system? The guys at ext2/3/4 seem to be doing a very good job at designing a file system.
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<ebrasca>
pjb: They don't support file versions?
<pjb>
ebrasca: ok.
<pjb>
So you want a file system with versionned files.
<ebrasca>
pjb: Yea
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<ebrasca>
pjb: cl spec support file versions.
<pjb>
I don't see how you can list the versions, there's a last-version, but not previous-version.
<ebrasca>
Yea I mean previous-version .
<pjb>
Oh, ok.
<ebrasca>
Sometimes I have hard time with english.
<dlowe>
me too, and I'm a native speaker
<pjb>
So, basically you would just need to take ext4 and extend its inode with version-number and previous-version fields?
<ebrasca>
pjb: ext4 have some fields I don't need in Mezzano OS.
<pjb>
Sure.
<pjb>
The rest would have to be implemented in the userland, such as would cp copy all the old versions, or just the last? This could be options.
<p_l>
pjb: I wouldn't say "iterated-to-hell" FFS gets to claim "good design" in 2019
<ebrasca>
I have implemented read for ext2/3/4 for Mezzano.
<pjb>
p_l: well, for a file system, excelent = loses no data. :-)
<p_l>
code quality of the driver itself is pretty good (except some idiotic linuxisms)
<p_l>
pjb: loses data pretty horribly in the same manner as all FFS variants ;P
<pjb>
ok.
<p_l>
fsck in write mode is like a nuke
<p_l>
nearly seen a company wiped out by fsck once
<pjb>
Not by fsck. By lack of backups.
<p_l>
that too
<p_l>
but it turned out that there was a backup
<pjb>
Companies are usually wiped by lack of something, more than actively by something.
<p_l>
still, recovering 7TB isn't fast in any way
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<p_l>
in this case, the MTTR was heavily increased by ext lacking any checksumming of metadata
<pjb>
Anyways, there's also the idea of not having a file system at all, but instead to implement a persistent storage of objects. So you could in a way implement any kind of file system by defining some classes in memory, and their objects would be written or read from the disk. See the EROS OS.
<ebrasca>
Yea I have add CRC to all structures.
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<pjb>
(notice that in the case of EROS, they achieved better I/O performance than unix).
<p_l>
pjb: ZFS does like that (and reimplements posix fs on top of object storage later on)
<p_l>
but it drives strict separation between on-disk and in-memory, unlike OS/400
<pjb>
Mezzano, being a new system, could do it like OS/400 and EROS.
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<pjb>
Also, remember that old computers had static ram or magnetic core memory, which was persistent. Imagine working with such a system, when you can shut down the computer and power it up again, and still have all your objects and processes ready?
<pjb>
So there's no notion of saving and loading, but just making copies into dictionaries or indexed databases.
<pjb>
Everything is always persistent.
<ebrasca>
We don't have persistent RAM.
<splittist>
Indeed. As technology recedes into the past, it also seems to recede into the future, leaving us with an eternal present...
<pjb>
ebrasca: but we can simulate it.
<dlowe>
I was hearing a while ago about memory made out of nano-cores, which would give us ultra low-power persistant ram
<dlowe>
I never heard anything else beyond the research stage, though
<p_l>
dlowe: MRAM, you can actually buy it, but densities are pretty low due to manufacturing requirements
<pjb>
There are RAM that are fitted with batteries to ensure persistence.
<p_l>
you can also buy NVDIMMs, though they require *some* separate handling
<verisimilitude>
My HP 48 calculator has persistent memory, but my laptop doesn't.
<verisimilitude>
Then again, HP knew better than to use UNIX for a calculator.
<p_l>
verisimilitude: if you use modern standby or S3 sleep then you have same level of memory persistence
<ebrasca>
pjb: Object oriented FS ?
<pjb>
Well, it's more like a OODBMS.
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<pjb>
(but objects are capabilities).
<ebrasca>
What is "OODBMS" ?
<pjb>
Object Oriented Data Base Management System.
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<pjb>
verisimilitude: really, it's not linked to the OS, but to the memory technology.
<beach>
The other day I was thinking that data bases, and also persistent stores requiring explicit actions to save object, essentially force the loss of identity of objects.
<pjb>
The OS evolved to fit the available hardware.
<p_l>
beach: or enforce external identity for the object
<beach>
p_l: You mean like an explicit identifier as opposed to a pointer?
<p_l>
beach: yes. also so-called "natural keys"
<beach>
Sure. But then, that technique would have some serious impact on the programming style.
<pjb>
Yes, and furthermore, in EROS (or was it KeyKOS, I may be mixing them), the addressing space was large enough that the network was also included in it: you could "mount" remote capability spaces in your addressing space, so you could enforce identity of object over the whole network.
<beach>
Forget CAR, CDR, accessor methods, etc.
<shka__>
wow
<shka__>
pjb: this sounds nice
<p_l>
beach: I think the worst bit is when people try to *naively* map external memory onto other kind of objects. Which often results in the same way as if someone wanted to use CAR on multi dimensional array
<ebrasca>
beach: car , cdr . Why?
<p_l>
shka__: OS/400 does similar thing
<shka__>
this never occured me as an approach
<shka__>
what a cool idea
<p_l>
shka__: OS/400 does something similar, but it involves among other things custom disks
<p_l>
having 128bit address space helps as well
<shka__>
interesting
<p_l>
there's precious little documentation though
<beach>
ebrasca: If you follow p_l's suggestion to abandon pointer identity in favor of some external identifier for objects, then your CONS cell will no longer be represented by a Common Lisp pointer, but by some arbitrary key, so CAR and CDR will no longer work.
<p_l>
it's also an OS that kept, iirc, a crazy variation of xor-linked-list for indexes
<shka__>
what the hell is xor linked list?
<p_l>
beach: unless there's a way to transparently (not *naively*) mapping between them
<p_l>
shka__: a way to use single pointer in a doubly-linked list
<beach>
Maybe so.
<shka__>
uhm, ok
<p_l>
OS/400 stored three pointers in one word and one bit
<p_l>
shka__: core component of OS/400 is a) single address space covering RAM and disk b) built-in database technology including relational one
<p_l>
they needed space-efficient indexing a lot
<p_l>
note that the component in question is mentioned to be written in assembly/C/C++
<p_l>
which counts for some minuscule amount of low-level code in OS/400
<Bike>
the two pointer trick is that since A xor B xor A = B, if you store A xor B, you can get A or B out as long as you have the other. it's not that complicated, just weird
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<ebrasca>
What do you recomend to work/implement in Mezzano?
<ebrasca>
... for Mezzano?
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<jackdaniel>
McCLIM's sheet-protocol based window manager :-)
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<ebrasca>
jackdaniel: Someone is already updating McCLIM support for Mezzano.
<jackdaniel>
making winow manager based on mcclim would require introducing sheepts capable of adopting other sheets
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<ebrasca>
I think it is good idea.
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<ebrasca>
jackdaniel: Thanks!
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<jackdaniel>
most work would be introducing protocol for adopting frames in a sheet, I believe backend primitives are already implemented by fittestbits
<jackdaniel>
you may read about the black board pane if you think about floating windows (I haven't tested it myself)
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<evanpeterjones>
knock knock?
<beach>
Hello evanpeterjones.
<evanpeterjones>
hello, becah
<evanpeterjones>
beach*
<evanpeterjones>
anyone have experience with clojure?
<phoe>
evanpeterjones: you mean the JVM Lisp dialect?
<beach>
evanpeterjones: That might be the case, but this channel is restricted to Common Lisp.
<phoe>
#lisp is a Common Lisp room; you might want #clojure
<evanpeterjones>
actually I've been teaching myself CL for a few weeks and used it on a few projects, but entertained the idea of using clojure.
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<evanpeterjones>
don't stan the JVM, or the non-standard m-like-expressions for different types, but the interop with java makes it seem very useful.
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<dlowe>
evanpeterjones: Perhaps ##lisp is the channel you're looking for
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<jackdaniel>
evanpeterjones: nb: interop with jvm is possible with abcl too
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<makomo>
hm, is it possible to somehow attach slime's debugger to a running lisp image (running swank of course) which has already invoked the debugger because an error happened?
<makomo>
basically, the image errored and entered the debugger, i connected to it using slime but now want to use slime's debugger instead
<makomo>
i tried using slime-list-threads and then attaching to the thread which entred the debugger using slime-thread-attach but i'm not sure whether this does what i think it does
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<verisimilitude>
Are there any restarts that would be appropriate to use for this available, makomo?
<verisimilitude>
You could, say, evaluate an expression that calls INVOKE-DEBUGGER within the native debugger.
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<makomo>
verisimilitude: within the thread that entered the debugger there's only ABORT
<phoe>
makomo: rebind the *debugger-hook* with a slime hook and call invoke-debugger in the original debugger
<phoe>
that should cause the slime debugger to fire
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<makomo>
ah i see
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<makomo>
let's try that
<LdBeth>
hola
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<makomo>
hello
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<trafaret1>
o/
<makomo>
invoke-debugger expects me to give it a condition. what do i give it?
<makomo>
(if i'm currently within the standard debugger)
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<phoe>
implementation-dependent
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<phoe>
you give it the condition that the standard debugger was invoked on - usually that's the value of some dynamic variable
<verisimilitude>
Give it the condition that was currently signalled by the previous one.
<phoe>
figure it out with your implementation's manual
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<makomo>
right, thought there might be a standard way of getting to it
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<phoe>
the way debuggers work internally is implementation-dependent.
<phoe>
only the way to invoke a debugger is standardized via INVOKE-DEBUGGER. once you're in, your implementation defines what's going on.
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<evanpeterjones>
particularly if you've used any really good libraries for image processing, web scraping, or database integration
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<makomo>
verisimilitude, phoe: i ended up writing my own debugger hook which then forwards to swank's debugger hook
<phoe>
makomo: woo! did it work?
<makomo>
yup :-)
<phoe>
<3
<makomo>
also, instead of starting the swank server right away, i start it *within* my debugger hook
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<makomo>
then, i set up 2 restarts. one invokes the standard debugger and the other invokes swank's debugger
<makomo>
this is so you have time to connect using SLIME and then launch swank's debugger
<makomo>
or just bail to the standard debugger if you don't want to connect using SLIME
<makomo>
after setting up the 2 restarts i signal an error myself explaining what the original error was and what the 2 restarts are
<verisimilitude>
Alright.
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<makomo>
this is great, lisp rocks :-D
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<makomo>
i have a tool written in lisp which is invoked as part of a bigger build system. if the tool fails, i want it to drop into the debugger and allow me to see what went wrong
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<pjb>
makomo: sometimes, (handler-bind ((error . #'invoke-debugger)) (tool)) is all that is needed, if it doesn't do it by default.
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<makomo>
ah, true, i could just set up my own handler which would do the same thing
<makomo>
(the debugger dispatch thing)
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<makomo>
what can i use from Swank to see whether there are any connections?
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<makomo>
there's swank::*connections* but i'd like something that's actually exported (and possibly documented)
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<_death>
if you're using slime-selector, C-c s c
<_death>
(i.e. slime-list-connections)
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<makomo>
i mean i want to do it programatically, using swank
<makomo>
just got an answer in #slime that i should use swank::*connections*, oh well
<jackdaniel>
how about (export 'swank::*connections* (find-package 'swank)) ;?
<jackdaniel>
in other words: there is no advertised protocol to access all connections
<makomo>
yeah, looks like it
<jackdaniel>
and if a superficial requirement is to have the symbol exported, then export it and forget about the issue
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<makomo>
there's no requirement. i was just hoping that there's an "official" way to do it, i.e. that there's a proper protocol
<makomo>
since there isn't, i'll just use whatever there is
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<dim>
I'm close to having c:build-program work for pgloader, but I don't quite get what the epilogue should look like
<dim>
given (c:build-program "/tmp/pgloader/pgloader" :epilogue-code '(cl-user::pgloader-image-main) I get The function PGLOADER-IMAGE-MAIN is undefined., but it's defined in the same "src/save.lisp" file as where the call to c:build-program is found...
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<jackdaniel>
dim: could you show file save.lisp?
<jackdaniel>
c:build-program *is not* save-lisp-and-die, it builds application from other artifacts
<jackdaniel>
so if this function is not in one of these artifacts, then indeed function won't be accessible
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<jackdaniel>
what you can do is to have :epiloge-code `(lambda () ,@something)
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<jackdaniel>
(or put file with said function as one of :lisp-files)
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<brainacid0>
hey, im very new. i was curious if there is a way i can write my code in one line and have the editor do the indentation?
<phoe>
brainacid0: yep
<phoe>
what's your editor?
<brainacid0>
im having a hard time following parentheses
<phoe>
brainacid0: it's not your task, your editor should count the parens for your and automatically indent your code
<brainacid0>
well i like vim
<phoe>
if it doesn't do that, then it's either misconfigured or unfit for writing Lisp.
<phoe>
vim should be capable of that. I'm not a vim user myself though so can't give you concrete pointers.
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<brainacid0>
well i have been trying Portacle and its not helping with it,
<phoe>
portacle is emacs-based
<brainacid0>
yes
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<brainacid0>
it does close the parans but maybe im not understanding yet
<brainacid0>
see im not really a programmer per se so i dont have the ey and thought process down
<phoe>
I see
<phoe>
Portacle does auto-indent Lisp for me though
<phoe>
so I don't know where exactly the issue is
<brainacid0>
im working thru Paul Graham book
<brainacid0>
well im sure its my eyes and mind. looking forward to learning morr
<phoe>
I gotta run to sleep for tonight
<phoe>
Hope you get your help here or on #clschool
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<makomo>
what's the way one is supposed to use named-readtable's IN-READTABLE? just stick it as one of the first top-level forms within your file?
<Xach>
makomo: yes
<Xach>
makomo: right after in-package is what i often see
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<makomo>
Xach: and the way IN-READTABLE is implemented will ensure that this readtable is used while reading the current file only?
<makomo>
i suppose that has to do with the fact that both LOAD and COMPILE-FILE bind *READTABLE*?
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<makomo>
i'm trying to understand how named-readtables achieves its "hygiene"
<Xach>
makomo: yes
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<makomo>
i see. one last thing, since IN-READTABLE is executed in all 3 EVAL-WHEN situations, then any usages of READ within that file will use that readtable, right?
<makomo>
unless you (or the code that indirectly calls READ) rebinds *READTABLE* to something else
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<makomo>
so i guess that in general one should be very careful when writing code that uses READ, taking care to explicitly bind the readtable that you want to use, etc.?
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<Xach>
makomo: in practice people are not so careful
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<Xach>
makomo: but it is a good idea to be careful!
<makomo>
mhm. i just finally diagnosed an error which was due to Swank calling READ for whatever reason when slime-restart-frame is called. since some code modified the standard readtable, Swank's READ would use it god knows how and the reader function would error
<makomo>
Xach: indeed. thanks :-)
<Xach>
it is bad to directly modify the standard readtable. i think some implementations protect against that?
<makomo>
yeah, definitely. SBCL doesn't seem to protect against it
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<Xach>
makomo: what are you making?
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<makomo>
Xach: i maintain a certain lisp tool that is used to generate c++ code. to ease that task, it has a reader macro which lets you easily embed chunks of C++ code (which support interpolation) into lisp
<makomo>
basically cl-interpol
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<makomo>
and i just rewrote it to use named-readtables
<Xach>
cool
<makomo>
:-)
<makomo>
the generated code is stuff like serialization, cloning, type info, etc.
<makomo>
all the lame stuff that you don't want to write by hand
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<Xach>
do you make use of the pretty printer dispatch for any of that? i've seen some interesting uses of it but mostly fall back to templated strings myself
<makomo>
and there's a little DSL which lets you define the C++ types and automatically register the generation of their serialization code, etc.
<makomo>
Xach: nope, but i never thought about it either (i'm not the original author of the core) -- all of it is templated strings like you say
<makomo>
how exactly would you use something like that for generation?
<makomo>
were you thinking of using it to stylize the generated code or?
<makomo>
we solve that problem by just running clang-format on the generated code :-)
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<Xach>
makomo: ahhh. the pretty printer can do smart things with indentation and continued lines and conditional breaks and such. i've seen it used to write pretty struct initialization code for C, for example.
<Xach>
but if you're just piping through another formatter there is no real need to generate pretty code initially
<makomo>
yeah, pretty much
<makomo>
also, i believe it would be hell to try t model the usual C++ style guidelines using the pretty printer
<makomo>
to model*
<Xach>
CL is for fighting fires in hell!
<makomo>
for various definitions of "usual" :-)
<makomo>
hah :D
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