phoe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <http://cliki.net/> <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | SBCL 1.4.16, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11.5, ABCL 1.5.0
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<buffergn0me> rpg: You can email Erik Huelsmann to get added to the iterate group on c-l.net (and ask for an account if you don't have one already), and edit the page. I'm not in the group or else I would make the edits for you.
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<asarch> MarI/O - Machine Learning for Video Games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv6UVOQ0F44
<asarch> Source Code: http://pastebin.com/ZZmSNaHX
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<Xach> asarch: does that relate to common lisp in some way?
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<asarch> Well, my first question was: "How does the program see the game?"
<asarch> Did you see the video?
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<asarch> And do you know more about the "neuronal network" the programmer used?
<no-defun-allowed> well if it's embedded in the emulator, it'll just read the emulated memory
<no-defun-allowed> eg (defun get-x (emulator) (aref (emulator-memory emulator) #x1234))
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<asarch> That was written in Lua
<asarch> Is this the programmer used for that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_neural_network
<_death> looks like it compares the mario sprite against the other sprites (abs. diff. for each pixel)
<no-defun-allowed> yeah it'd use an artificial neural network
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<_death> asarch: it has a population of neural networks that are optimized using a genetic algorithm
<no-defun-allowed> ANNs are semi-magic things that wannabe data analysts throw at everything to solve problems
<asarch> "Genetic Algorithm"?
<_death> asarch: their longer the game runs (i.e. the greater the frame number reached), the fitter the network
<no-defun-allowed> the longer the conversation goes, the less relevant to Lisp it gets
<_death> ah well, it's sleepytime anyway
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<asarch> So, this isn't actually AI, right?
<asarch> It is just a bunch of if's collected ("Data Mining"?)
<Xach> if it works, it's not ai(tm)
<no-defun-allowed> it's AI, which isn't a bunch of ifs
<_death> everything boils down to a bunch of ifs
<no-defun-allowed> tldr: do some matrix multiplication crap, pass it to some kind of scalar function, then to train it somehow do it backwards
<no-defun-allowed> owowowow ears
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<aeth> Quite a few things on the computer can be summed up as "matrix multiplication crap" and quite a few more things can (and maybe should) be done with matrices.
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<aeth> The whole point of mathematical objects like matrices are to be abstract in a generally useful way.
<aeth> It's a bit unfortunate that most of the time matrices are going to be CFFIed (and often then sent to the GPU) and thus have to be flat (and probably allocated via static-vectors). CL comes pretty close to basically just having matrices built in with its n-dimensional array system, only really lacking e.g. stuff like * and + working directly on them.
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<aeth> Although I guess technically you'd then want column vectors, not regular 1D arrays, and (make-array '(4 1)) probably isn't going to look nice.
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<aeth> If you want to do GPU computing from Common Lisp, you probably want to use an s-expression language that runs on the GPU, just like you probably want your SQL/HTML/CSS/JS/XML/etc. in a sexpy format, too. There are several, but I don't think any are complete (I could be wrong). I'd personally lean more toward a unique DSL than a compatible subset of CL, but people have attempted both.
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<moldybits> (defun foo () (case (read) (bar 42))) doesn't work when you read from a different package than it was defined it >_<
<moldybits> i guess i should use keywords. i just have to remember this ...
<dlowe> you can also set *package* deliberately
<dlowe> (let ((*package* (find-package "MYPACKAGE"))) (read)) will intern any unqualified symbols into MYPACKAGE
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<aeth> Or you can intern the result, e.g. (intern (symbol-name :foo)) ; converts from a keyword
<aeth> I'm guessing that something like that is what macros like LOOP use.
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<buffergn0me> WRT algebra on arrays being a thing more computer programmers should do, Common Lisp has very good support for that because CL arrays were designed with a lot of influence from APL
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<buffergn0me> That's why for example CL has proper zero-dimensional arrays
<aeth> buffergn0me: Well, CL has decent support for 1D arrays... With nD arrays you have to write a lot of your own things, but at least you have the basics, like... the presence of actual nD arrays of nearly every useful numerical type.
<aeth> and yes, n counting from 0
<aeth> Only barbarians would count from 1.
<buffergn0me> Haha, APL actually can count from 1
<buffergn0me> What I mean is: (make-array '() :initial-element 20)
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<buffergn0me> Makes an array of rank zero, that has one element
<aeth> Interestingly, 0D arrays have a practical use: boxes. (make-array '() :element-type 'double-float :initial-element 0d0) ; it's implementation specific, but this can remove the box on the double-float, and will in SBCL
<buffergn0me> Scalars are just zero-dimensional arrays
<buffergn0me> aeth: Wow, that's cool
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<aeth> buffergn0me: You can pass in a 0D array and mutate that instead of returning an unboxed numeric type (Not just double-float, also 64-bit signed/unsigned as well as various complex types, if the implementation supports it in :element-type and if the implementation removes boxing)
<aeth> I mean, it's an ugly hack, but could be useful in numerical hot loops.
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<buffergn0me> The advantage I was thinking about is that operations that reduce/expand the dimensions of an array can stay in the domain of arrays when dealing with scalars. That eliminates a lot of special-case code
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<buffergn0me> aeth: Thank you for that tip, I am definitely going to add it to my collection of techniques
<aeth> (defun foo (a) (declare ((simple-array double-float ()) a)) (incf (aref a)) a) (disassemble #'foo) ; just make sure not to accidentally return (aref a) and always return a and it should be non-consing
<aeth> of course it's implementation-specific, but I don't see why implementations where that currently doesn't work can't add that trick
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<aeth> buffergn0me: You're welcome.
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<buffergn0me> Do you have any favorite libraries for array programming with Common Lisp? I have it in mind to play with https://github.com/phantomics/april when I have the time, but that goes way too far away from Lisp
<aeth> buffergn0me: Oh, and I think another use of 0D arrays is to (near-)directly translate C code that uses (iirc, it has been a while) &foo
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<aeth> buffergn0me: I mostly write my own code, but it's mostly games/graphics-related so it has simplifying assumptions like 4x4 matrices.
<aeth> The simplifying assumptions allow me to do things like compose functions that return multiple values with functions that set from multiple values, e.g. here: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/3f7549a14b0cbe558c97eb5e2c4ea7e02f3fcc7e/util/array.lisp
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<aeth> buffergn0me: With that, I can do things like this: (let ((m (make-array '(4 4) :element-type 'double-float :initial-element 0d0)) (v (make-array 4 :element-type 'double-float :initial-contents '(1d0 2d0 3d0 4d0)))) (setf (array-row-of-4 m 2) (array-of-4 v)) m)
<aeth> (That replaces row 2, i.e. the 3rd row)
<aeth> When I have to do arbitrary matrices I write loops, which aren't as elegant or fun.
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<buffergn0me> That is pretty cool. Using SETF for row/column operations is a great idea
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<aeth> Going too far beyond 4 I wouldn't want to do a complete loop unroll. Probably looping in 4's could work.
<aeth> It's definitely an "only in Lisp" sort of thing, though
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<aeth> It's probably better to write an array-capable version of #'replace for larger, arbitrary things, actually.
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<verisimilitude> I dislike how Common Lisp doesn't feature nice n-dimensional array slices.
<verisimilitude> Also, you can't get a real slice, just a copy.
<verisimilitude> Well, you can displaye, I suppose.
<verisimilitude> s/y/c/
<verisimilitude> Whatever.
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<verisimilitude> Displacement doesn't work as nicely as it could with n-dimensional arrays, though.
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<aeth> verisimilitude: start/end works well... it's just 1D
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<LdBeth> Good evening
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<verisimilitude> Yes, it's just one-dimensional, aeth.
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<dtornabene> good morning
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<aeth> verisimilitude: Yes, so I think an extension of that would have worked well for arrays
<aeth> for 2D (probably the most common after 1D), just selecting a row and a start and an end works for most cases
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<aeth> or more generally maybe lists for start/end, but that could cons
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<karlosz> its wrong to assume that array elements are initialized to 0 without specfiying initial element or initial contents right?
<pillton> Yes.
<beach> I confirm.
<pillton> clhs make-array
<beach> "If initial-element is not supplied, the consequences of later reading an uninitialized element of new-array are undefined unless either initial-contents is supplied or displaced-to is non-nil."
* pillton apologises to beach.
<karlosz> right, i was beginning to self doubt myself because the sbcl internals make that assumption somewhere in make-hash-table
<beach> pillton: Whyu?
<beach> Why?
<pillton> I was about to paste that.
<pillton> Make-hash-table?
<pillton> Now I am confused.
<karlosz> er, i just meant in the implementation of hash tables for sbcl
<karlosz> an array is created but implicitly assumed to be initialized to zero which was causing problems for me
<pillton> Your question pertained to make-array, not make-hash-table.
<beach> karlosz: The implementation can obviously rely on its own default.
<karlosz> that's true... well, that complicates things a little
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<verisimilitude> It's just poor practice to do so, yes.
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<makomo> morning
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<JohnMS> Good morning.
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<jmercouris> how can I set the place that CFFI looks for things
<jmercouris> I get a 0: (CFFI::FL-ERROR "Unable to load any of the alternatives:~% ~S" ("libmysqlclient.20.dylib" "libmysqlclient.dylib"))
<jmercouris> however, /usr/local/lib does in fact contain a link to a libmysqlclient.dylib
<Bike> i believe it does whatever the implementation does, and the implementation probably defers to the operating system
<Bike> let me see if i can find the manual page
<jmercouris> for SBCL specifically I looked, but the sourceforge page is down...
<Bike> "You should not have to use this variable."
<jmercouris> it just expands into a set of functions, not strings
<jmercouris> however if I run one of those functions
<jmercouris> in this case: (CFFI::DARWIN-FALLBACK-LIBRARY-PATH)
<jmercouris> I get: (#P"/Users/jmercouris/lib/" #P"/usr/local/lib/" #P"/usr/lib/")
<jmercouris> and YET! it claims unable to find libmysqlclient.dylib
<jmercouris> $ pwd /usr/local/lib; ls libmysqlclient.dylib; libmysqlclient.dylib
<jmercouris> >
<jmercouris> I'm really out of ideas here
<Bike> i dunno how to help, sorry.
<jmercouris> its okay
<jmercouris> I now have a different error
<jmercouris> so it seems I fixed that
<jmercouris> had to make the symlink and restart my inferior lisp
<rpg> I have been having trouble with slime-selector recently -- none of the characters I type as selections matches against slime-selector-methods. E.g.: "No method for character: ?\R" -- any idea why this would be happening? I'm not sure what is going on, but it seems like my selector characters are being UPCASED, then matched against slime-selector-methods. Any idea what could be doing this upcasing?
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<Ukari> i want to export some methods named 'map' and 'do' which would accept special classtype argument in my package, but there has already been 'map' and 'do' function in package :cl
<Ukari> is there a nice solution for this condition?
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<TMA> yes
<lieven> SHADOW but nice might be exaggerated
<TMA> or just using other names
<lieven> use |map| and |do| :)
<lieven> the lower case symbols are not used by :CL
<Bike> you can shadow them, but then they lose their CL meaning.
<Ukari> what is a lower case symbols meanings of?
<scymtym> for CL:MAP, you could also look into user-extensible sequences, but not many implementations support them
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<lieven> Ukari: basically, when you type "map" in your code, the reader converts it to "MAP" and that's the name of the symbol defined in the CL package. by writing |map| you instruct the reader to make a symbol with as name "map"
<Ukari> oh
<rpg> Looks like read-key-sequence should give me the lower-case character, but somehow it seems not.
<Ukari> thanks you, lieven, thought i might change the function name instead of use |map| as a method name which would be export due to it seems a bit strange to be wrap with ||
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<rpg> *In the context of slime-selector* read-key-sequence is upcasing. Anyone have a clue about what could be doing this? some rogue dynamically-scoped variable?
<rpg> Should this be worrying me: Warning: Bug in minibuffer-inactive-mode: it forgets to call `run-mode-hooks'
<_death> start with emacs -Q and bisect your .emacs?
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<rpg> <_death> that's the usual advice, but I have 2042 lines of emacs-lisp in init.el and 240 in slime-config.el. I have been using emacs for almost 40 years. I know you are trying to be helpful, but that is almost like saying "start by scraping your machine, and then put all the binaries back one by one."
<rpg> For anything involving interactive debugging, the time cost of this strategy is simply staggering.
<_death> bisection means it may take about 11 runs then ;)
<rpg> And it's round about now I really wish emacs lisp had #| ... |#
<_death> (when nil ...) may also work
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<ggole> rpg: umm, current-case-table?
<ggole> That's a wild guess.
<rpg> ggole: Thanks!
<rpg> ggole: Is that still a thing? I don't see it in help on variables...
<ggole> Oh, it's done with functions
<ggole> Sorry
<ggole> set-current-case-table a setter, current-case-table a getter
<rpg> ggole: thanks, got it.
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<ggole> And describe-buffer-case-table, which might be interesting to run in *slime-selector*'s minibuffer thingy
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<rpg> ggole: this looks ... odd: "⇧A uppercase, matches a " and "A lowercase, matches A" -- any idea what the "matches" means?
<ggole> I have never run describe-buffer-case-table before... one moment, I'll try it out
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<ggole> Hmm. Well, in scratch it says alowercase, matches A and Auppercase, matches a, so it looks like entries in the upcase and downcase parts of the table
<ggole> But why is capital A lowercase?
<ggole> Maybe you do have a different case-table there.
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<rpg> ggole: I think that's just a stupid way of printing. If you look at the first of the two strings, they show capital A as "A with shift."
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<ggole> Right, that is different from my emacs
<rpg> I just tried shift R to see if somehow I was getting case-inversion behavior, but not so -- it looks like somehow read-key-sequence in slime's minibuffer is upcasing. But not in the buffer itself. I suspect some state leakage.
<rpg> But I have no idea where the leakage might be coming from.
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<ggole> Yeah, I'm not brimming with ideas.
<ggole> I would probably try temporarily ripping out some slime contribs to see if that changes things
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<rpg> ggole: This started when I started working with Python -- I'm wondering if some of the python emacs config gunk is leaking state.
<ggole> Could be...
<ggole> That's a strange place for it to leak to though
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<rpg> That's why I was wondering if the warning about minibuffer-inactive-mode not running its hooks was a problem.
<ggole> Hmm, what does (list (downcase "abc") (upcase "abc")) give in the affected buffer?
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<rpg> ggole: (abc ABC) as expected, but the only way I know how to do this is by jamming elisp into a call to message in a redefined slime-selector, which means I'm not sure that this reflects what happens in the read-key-sequence context.
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<jcowan> An array restricted to a subtype of number doesn't even necessarily have an implementation default initial value: it's perfectly cromulent for it to contain arbitrary junk
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<ggole> rpg: I was thinking M-: but that will just return, of course
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* rpg finds that debugging init.el by bisection is even worse than you expect if you have (package-initialize)
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<rpg> Aha!!! It's the call to key-descsription that causes my pain.
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<rpg> (key-description "r") returns "R". I have no idea why I am (seemingly) the only SLIME user who has this problem.
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<asarch> AI learns to play snake using Genetic Algorithm and Deep learning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bhP7zulFfY
<asarch> If Intelligence and Emotion are not the same, how could AI create Personality?
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<asarch> Intelligence, emotion, character, personality. We are far from create the perfect automata, right? :-(
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<pjb> asarch: do you imagine what it would feel like to be an AI in today world?
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<gendl> Hi, has anyone had problems accessing files through Windows symbolic links in Lisp?
<gendl> I'm having issues with "File not found" both in CCL and Allegro, where I've made a Windows symbolic link to a directory with mklink /d
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<gendl> the directories and files under the symlink show up fine in cygwin bash shell or Windows cmd prompt, but after a couple levels deep, they do not show up with (probe-file ...) or (directory ...) in CCL or Allegro.
<gendl> If I use the true path to the file, they show up in CCL and Allegro fine.
<TMA> gendl: does dir list <JUNCTION> or <SYMBOLIC LINK> (not sure of the exact spelling used)
<gendl> TMA: dir shows <SYMLINK>
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<TMA> gendl: I have never had problems with the latter + sbcl. I have used it even for the fasl cache without any problem
<gendl> another possibly complicating factor is that the target of the symlink is under a drive ("m:") which is mounted from a Linux system using sshfs-win
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<gendl> but it doesn't seem that the sshfs mounting is a problem in and of itself, because the files do show if using the actual "m:/..." pathname.
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<gendl> I guess i can try making a similar symbolic link setup with a directory from the local C: drive and see if I get similar problems...
<pjb> Windows LNK files are not symbolic links. I don't think they're handled by CCL.
<gendl> I've been using this on another windows system for years without problems.
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<gendl> But, not with a network-mounted drive like this..
<gendl> but on the other system it is in fact with a Virtualbox shared folder
<gendl> and it works
<gendl> with all CLs
<gendl> so the difference is - the machine which is not working is a Server version of Windows (server 2016), and the drive is mounted with sshfs instead of Virtualbox shared drive.
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<gendl> i suppose it could also be some weird permissions issues -- but with the same user in cygwin bash shell, everything shows up. So it's kind of bizarre. And one of the last showstoppers to the super cool build/CI system I'm trying to get running here...
<gendl> everything in place, everything ready to go, then this weird kink shows up when trying to load actual files in Lisp...
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<gendl> pjb: I don't think they are LNK files - the dir command shows them as <SYMLINKD>
<gendl> (that was a typo above - they show up as <SYMLINKD> not <SYMLINK>).
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<gendl> Update: it's not just a Lisp problem. Windows file Explorer and cmd shell also have trouble seeing files a level or two down from the <SYMLINKD> directory. Only cygwin can see everything.
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<gendl> So this is some kind of issue with the sshfs, the windows <SYMLINKD>, or the combination of the two. Using the M: drive directly (the one mounted with sshfs) works fine. Anyway not a Lisp issue so I'll dig into it on the windows end of things and stop yammering on about it here... sorry for the noise..
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<pjb> Clearly, Microsoft doesn't know what belongs to kernels and what belongs to userspace. GUI inside the kernel, FS in user space, PFFFTHTH!
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<Aruseus> perhaps they wanted to show they could be innovative and implement the fs on top of the gui
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<pjb> Aruseus: probably they were innovative in a meeting such as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg
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<Aruseus> pjb, are you can expert? I need you to implement copy-on-write using context menus and buttons.
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<pjb> Notice, there's an good expertly answer: http://img1.joyreactor.cc/pics/post/full/песочница-Не-мое-кто-в-теме-тот-поймет-эксперт-2734907.jpeg
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