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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<beach>
So I need an :AROUND method on SHARED-INITIALIZE but for a class that does not have a name in the global host environment. I could of course figure out how to build and add such a method programmatically. But it is probably easier to use (SETF FIND-CLASS) with a GENSYM, then do a DEFMETHOD, then use (SETF FIND-CLASS) again to remove the class from the global host environment.
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<no-defun-allowed>
morning beach
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<beach>
no-defun-allowed: Hey, how is it going?
<beach>
So here is the plan for the metaobject initialization procedure: In the implementation of SICL CLOS, I have :AROUND methods on SHARED-INITIALIZE as suggested by the AMOP. But these methods trampoline to an ordinary function that does the real job, so the :AROUND method is trivial.
<beach>
At bootstrapping time, I use the host EVAL, passing it such a trivial DEFMETHOD form with a GENSYMed name of a class. The ordinary function is defined in the host global environment, thereby simplifying the bootstrapping procedure.
<beach>
I need the GENSYMed name of the class because I can't use the real name. After all, GENERIC-FUNCTION is one such name and I can't clobber the host initialization procedure.
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<splittist>
beach: why not MAKE-SYMBOL with "SICL-" appended to the real name? Or is all this so automated/general you don't need the debugging support?
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<splittist>
(or is that what you meant, anyway)
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<beach>
Sure, I could do that in this case.
<beach>
Because it's just used to find a class, given a name.
<beach>
However, the class name is still correct (as returned by CLASS-NAME), i.e. CLASS or STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION.
<beach>
And that's what shows up for debugging, so I am safe.
<beach>
The problem that is solved by my solution is that DEFMETHOD looks up the class using FIND-CLASS.
<beach>
Hmm, maybe that wasn't clear. There can be two distinct names associated with a class. One is the intrinsic name given to it when it is created (using MAKE-INSTANCE). There can be any number of classes in the system with the same name. This is the name returned by CLASS-NAME.
<beach>
Then there might be a name associated with the class in the global environment, possibly distinct from the previous one. That second name is what is used to find the class in the environment using FIND-CLASS. But there is no obligation for a class to have a name in the global environment. I take advantage of this fact by storing the class in a SICL first-class global environments instead.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I might have a solution for solving netsplits with cl-decentralise.
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<no-defun-allowed>
If two objects have the same version ID, we can then compare them with a "most viable successor" comparison function which could do proof of work, deterministic randomness (ie comparing hashes) or some other stateless comparison between the two objects.
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<shka_>
no-defun-allowed: if this boils down to hash, why not use hash as version ID?
<no-defun-allowed>
It might not be hashes though.
<no-defun-allowed>
You'd then have to make each successive hash smaller or larger than the last one, making this a CPU power game.
<no-defun-allowed>
For all I care, it's T if the new version is better and NIL if it's not.
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<shka_>
no-defun-allowed: well, you can simply approach this as git does
<shka_>
it is simple and proven approach
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<no-defun-allowed>
Git doesn't enforce a single definitive state over many nodes.
<no-defun-allowed>
From what I remember, Git is free for all in that regard. Any branch can be the canonical branch.
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<kolb>
Specifically I would like to stop it from querying the system wide configuration paths, i.e. /etc/common-lisp/source-registry.conf
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<kolb>
> Each of these configurations is only used if the previous configuration explicitly or implicitly specifies that it includes its inherited configuration.
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<kolb>
Right, so it seems CL_SOURCE_REGISTRY="(:source-registry :ignore-inherited-configuration)" does what I want
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<Xach>
kolb: you can also frob asdf:*system-definition-search-functions*
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<zigpaw>
what a lovely song :)
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<Combinatorialist>
Is LISP any faster than Scheme?
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<otwieracz>
Yes, exactly three point one times faster.
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<edgar-rft>
Lisp can be spelled faster than Scheme because it has less letters.
<otwieracz>
And the spelling itself seems faster.
<otwieracz>
„s” is usually longer.
<pjb>
And furthermore, lisp has a short i, while in scheme, the first vowel is a long one (and there are two syllables).
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<otwieracz>
So yeah, at least three times faster.
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<pjb>
Not counting that in #lisp, lisp is spelled cl, which is even faster.
<ym>
Are there any impressive examples of automatic code synthesis with any sort of non-deterministic facility like screamer? I want to be impressed.
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<edgar-rft>
Assuming Lisp is faster then Scheme, in what way is then Scheme looser than Lisp?
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<makomo>
ym: probably not what you're looking for (although i might be wrong) but chris kohlhepp has an interesting blogpost or two on screamer
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<makomo>
ym: https://chriskohlhepp.wordpress.com/, none of them have "screamer" in the title but look under the "Reasoning System Articles" category
<aeth>
Combinatorialist: The problem with very fast Schemes is that nobody uses them because Scheme is too small to write meaningful portable libraries in, so the ecosystems in Scheme are associated with individual implementations. That might change, though, because Chez Scheme was open sourced, so other implementations can incorporate its backend. I think Chez is a JIT, though, so it behaves differently from the fast CLs, which are AOT compiled.
<aeth>
Notice, though, that nothing makes Scheme the language inherently faster/slower or Common Lisp the language inherently faster/slower here. Performance is all about implementations.
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<ym>
makomo, thanks, but nah, I'm more interested in automatic problem solving (constraint/relational programming), curious why systems with language specification (like OpenGL and ANSI Lisp for example) still can't be automatically coupled with some sort of automatic solving magic.
<aeth>
Combinatorialist: Since this is the Common Lisp channel, I can tell you that in general SBCL is the fastest CL implementation, followed by CCL. (CCL is faster in some areas, such as compilation time.) You can ask in #scheme for Scheme recommendations.
<aeth>
(Since anyone can optimize their implementation, this information may become out of date.)
<makomo>
ym: i thought that constraint programming was exactly what chris did in one of the blogposts. i think he even mentioned that term
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<ym>
makomo, yes, it is even screamer mentioned in context of project Euler contest. But implementation of constraint programming still rarely goes further than academic researches or stuff for fun. Robots, 3D-printing and such things are cool, but I don't get why such powerful facility as automatic problem solving not used to solve actual problems of programming ecosystem itself.
<makomo>
oh i see, so those techniques applied to programming itself? hm interesting
<ym>
They can be applied very easily to formalized systems.
<Bike>
wouldn't the halting problem and so on make it largely impossible?
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<aeth>
Isn't the general issue with these kinds of paradigms very unpredictable performance?
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<ym>
How do you see halting problem in solving a task of coupling to finite systems?
<ym>
aeth, performance of resulting code or searching?
<Bike>
i thought you meant infinite systems like opengl or lisp
<pjb>
As O(.), the halting problem is a problem only in the most general form. But if you restrict the input, then the halting problem is not a problem anymore.
<random-nick>
hm, is there any CL implementation which does tracing JIT?
<pjb>
For example, if you follow NASA programming practices, where each loop is bounded: (while (and (plusp (decf max-loop-count)) (foop x)) …), then the halting problem become trivial to solve.
<pjb>
random-nick: clisp has a JITC option. I don't know if it's a tracking JIT.
<ym>
Bike, can't get what you mean. The language of both are consists of finite terms. What do you mean by infinite systems?
<Bike>
they describe infinite state machines.
<ym>
And?
<Bike>
it's possible i don't understand what you want.
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<ym>
Infinite possible states of systems generated by finite languages doesn't mean you can't automatically synthesize bindings from one language to another. There is autowrap, for example.
<random-nick>
hm, it seems that the SSL certificates for www.lisp.org and for planet.lisp.org have expired
<random-nick>
s/planet/paste/
<random-nick>
planet.lisp.org is fine
<Bike>
i definitely misunderstood.
<Bike>
how would you use constraint programming to generate bindings?
<ym>
I'll take specifications of CL, CADR, OpenGL, stuff all these things to fooKanren and bush "do it" button.
<Bike>
so step one is formal specs of all of those?
<ym>
Convert specs to solver language, yep. Then, second step is to formalize the target.
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<Bike>
a formal spec of any of those would be a daunting project. probably useful, but daunting
<meepdeew>
What's the best way to find what academic research is currently going on in the lisp-world? Searching publications? Would it usually be going on under the umbrella of `programming languages'?
<ym>
Perspective of writing code by hands to death is far more daunting for me.
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<aeth>
ym: I'm guessing the generation would take a long time, not the programs themselves, so if you could actually get it to work, you could keep using the programs (assuming you don't need to make changes to the programs later on)
<meepdeew>
Interesting, thanks aeth. I'll dig around. Do you know if that's the biggest conference/event of the sort or whether there's anything less euro-centric?
<Bike>
it's not that eurocentric.
<Bike>
take it from me, an american who's attended twice
<aeth>
meepdeew: ELS is the biggest conference/event in #lisp
<Bike>
the other one is the uh... international....lisp... something
<meepdeew>
Gotcha. Neat
<mason>
ILC
<aeth>
The United States definitely is losing its strategic Lisp advantage to the Europeans in recent years, though.
<mason>
Didn't the ALU fall apart?
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<Shinmera>
I've started indexing various projects' documentation into Colleen so that it can be linked to like the clhs. If you have/know a project that you think would benefit being in there, let me know. You can see the currently indexed libraries here https://github.com/Shirakumo/maiden/blob/master/agents/lookup/archives.lisp
<Shinmera>
For instance,
<Shinmera>
Colleen: look up bordeaux-threads make-thread
<cgay>
Now index the doc for everything in quicklisp? :)
<Shinmera>
Can't do that since a lot of projects don't have documentation, or need very manual dissecting of it to get the info out
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<Shinmera>
Or rather, I'm not gonna invest the time to fix people's crappy docs.
<cgay>
yeah. need standards, i guess.
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<cgay>
it's a start. if it becomes useful to people maybe they'll be motivated to write some of their own docs.
<Shinmera>
Probably not
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<Fare>
UIOP now has a manual! Yay!
<aeth>
Fare: great!
<Shinmera>
Speaking of manuals, I'd definitely like to add that to my index
<aeth>
Fare: Did you catch any bugs when you were documenting things?
<Fare>
I didn't... the "manual" was automatically produced by extracting docstrings :-/
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<Fare>
The main thing is that there are few features that aren't exercised by ASDF (there is a strong presumption against implementing things not used by ASDF, except for API completeness purposes at times), so if ASDF still manages to build Quicklisp, it's a good sign.
<Fare>
"Our 68 file test suite is only the unit tests; then Quicklisp is our integration test."
<Fare>
fe[nl]ix, do you change name from lacedaemon when you feel like speaking?
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<Fare>
aeth, but I *did* find bugs in ASDF while explaining its self-upgrade issues.
<Fare>
(and fixed them)
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<fe[nl]ix>
Fare: no, the backup nickname is just an artifact of server disconnects
<fe[nl]ix>
Fare: what's up ?
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