<asarch>
One step at the time: 1. I start a fresh session of SBCL. 2. Load clim: (ql:quickload "clim") 3. Load the pure code of this example: (load "example-02.lisp") and I get:
<pjb>
asarch: don't load the example-02, it's wrong!
<pjb>
asarch: the stereotypical file will contain (defpackage "FOO" (:use "CL" "AND" "STUFF")) (in-package "FOO") …
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<pjb>
if you want to type (use "CL"…) then you need *package* to be bound to the keyword package, so you need: (in-package "KEYWORD") (cl:defpackage "FOO" (use "CL" …)) (cl:in-package "FOO") …
<pjb>
I explained you above the stereotypical file structure. Why cannot you apply it to your file? What's wrong with the sentence "the stereotypical file will contain (defpackage "FOO" (:use "CL" "AND" "STUFF")) (in-package "FOO") …" ?
<pjb>
Can you not substitute the strings for your actual instance?
<pjb>
Why not?
<pjb>
What do you need to be told to be able to take a good example and reproduce it in your code?
<asarch>
You cannot use :clim package directly in the REPL
<pjb>
asarch: I cannot help you, since you don't answer to the questions.
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<pjb>
FOr example, I could ask you what the standard says about a thing, but you wouldn't understand why I'm asking you about that thing, because you can't read an error message.
<pjb>
So you would probably not read the clhs about that thing anyways.
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<pjb>
asarch: for example, we gave you the clhs use-package to read, but you still don't understand that packages such as the :clim package are not used IN the REPL, but used BY other packages.
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<pjb>
(also incidently, you've been told from the start the solution, but you couldn't apply it).
<asarch>
I simply don't understand CLHS
<asarch>
I read it if it was a prescription from a doctor
<asarch>
I still don't have that level I need
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<asarch>
So, an example would be fine. If I do: (defpackage :asarch (:use :common-lisp)) (in-package :asarch) I understand I am making available all the functions from :common-lisp plus the functions from :asarch, right?
<asarch>
Just like "using namespace std;" from C++, right?
<asarch>
Or maybe I am wrong. (That's the reason I am confused)
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<no-defun-allowed>
you're making all the symbols from CL used in ASARCH, yes.
<no-defun-allowed>
IN-PACKAGE also means all new symbols in the file or REPL will be interned into ASARCH.
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<pjb>
no-defun-allowed: no, using packages doesn't intern symbols. Symbols can be interned only in their home package.
<pjb>
symbols can be imported, or present (visible) in a package thru package use.
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<pjb>
notice however, that you can intern a symbol with more than one operator (intern, of course, but also import and shadow can intern a symbol).
<pjb>
Also, contrarily to intern and shadow, and import can intern an existing symbol (if it has no home package).
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<asarch>
:-(
<asarch>
So, in the example, (I was re-reading all my notes): Instead of writing (clim:make−pane ...) I could do (use-package :clim), right
<asarch>
?
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<pjb>
yes.
<asarch>
However, if I do that, I get USE-PACKAGE #<PACKAGE "CLIM"> causes name-conflicts in #<PACKAGE "COMMON-LISP-USER"> between the following symbols: COMMON-LISP:INTERACTIVE-STREAM-P, CLIM-LISP-PATCH:INTERACTIVE-STREAM-P
<pjb>
As long as you do that in a package that doesn't already have symbols with the same name as the symbols exported by the "CLIM" package.
<pjb>
What does clhs say about the CL-USER package?
<asarch>
However, I can ignore functions from packages...
<pjb>
This doesn't mean anything.
<pjb>
functions are not from packages. THis is meaningless.
<pjb>
Bike: there's no conflit when you use it in a clean package!
<Bike>
i mean, use :clim-lisp and not :cl
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<no-defun-allowed>
pjb: i believe i said "new symbols ... [are] interned into ASARCH" and "all the symbols from CL [are] used in ASARCH" which is correct
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<asarch>
:-(
<asarch>
But enough of chit-chat. How would you fix the package messing of this code?
<mfiano>
It is bad practice to use use-package a lot. The solution is to not use it, and allow your code to be more readable. Alternatively, shadow the exports or imports.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<asarch>
Bingo! You were sent by Heaven!
<asarch>
beach, would you please help me with this code?. I have a mess with the package part: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/581400
<beach>
asarch: In your package FENSTER, you need to :USE something that contains Common Lisp symbols too. Either :COMMON-LISP or :CLIM-LISP.
<beach>
asarch: But as mfiano says, I recommend against :USE-ing packages other than :COMMON-LISP (or in this case :CLIM-LISP).
<beach>
asarch: Instead I prefix all my CLIM symbols.
<beach>
asarch: Also, the system to install from Quicklisp is not called CLIM, it is called MCCLIM.
<beach>
But you can study the compta.asd file, the packages.lisp file, and you can look at how symbols are prefixed.
<asarch>
Thank you!
<asarch>
You're great!
<beach>
Thanks. Good luck.
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<asarch>
How do you run the code?
<beach>
(compta-gui:compta)
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<asarch>
Thanks!
<no-defun-allowed>
hi beach
<no-defun-allowed>
yay, you're back to saying morning
<beach>
Indeed.
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<didi>
Sooo. I want to use `assert' within `defsetf'. The problem is, the place I use inside `assert' turns into an `undefined variable'. I can do it, if instead of `defsetf', I use `defun (setf ...) ...'. Is there a way to use `assert' within `defsetf'?
<minion>
didi, memo from pjb: there are downsides in using :type : then you won't be creating a new type, so it'll be harder to distinguish those structure instances from lists (or vectors). So you would do that, only when this would be the point.
<didi>
pjb: Thank you.
<Bike>
i don't understand what you mean. code?
<Bike>
defsetf is kind of like a macro definition, so maybe there are timing issues.
<didi>
Bike: Oh, sure. Let me cook something smallish.
<didi>
Now SBCL complains. If I try (setf (my-place 0 (list 1 2 3)) 42), "Variable name is not a symbol: 0."
<didi>
And if I take the comma from (,n): "undefined variable: N"
<didi>
I guess if I want to use `assert', I will have to live with the #'(setf ...) function call.
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<didi>
Uuuh. Tho (let ((n ,n)) (assert ...) ...) makes it work.
<didi>
Hehe, nah. It get stuck.
<didi>
OK, `(let* ((n ,n)) (assert (numberp n) (n)) (setf (nth n ,list) ,value)) works, but at what cost? Maybe it's better to use (setf my-place) after all.
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<pjb>
didi: I think that the point is that when you use defsetf it doesn't create a (setf foo) function, but setf expands the expression inline.
<asarch>
The code between #| ... |#, what is that for?
<pjb>
it's comment.
<asarch>
Thank you!
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<didi>
pjb: Indeed.
<pjb>
#| it can #| be embedded |# into other coments |#
* asarch
takes notes...
<pjb>
or just read chapter 2.
<didi>
I also noted that (nth 42 '()) evals to NIL but (elt '() 42) signals a condition. Weird.
<pjb>
that's because elt works on vectors too.
<pjb>
(cdr nil) = nil so there's no problem repeating cdr 41 times.
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<didi>
Right. Tho I would expect NTH and ELT behave the same when feeding them a list.
<didi>
Just my expectation.
<pjb>
It would be sad if they were identical.
<didi>
I see.
<pjb>
By being different, they justify their existence. :-)
<aeth>
Well I expect the main difference to be that NTH will have an error if not given a list and ELT will work fine if given certain non-lists
<aeth>
Saves a line of code, so that justifies its existence.
<pjb>
Well, one could expect that elt would still avoid calling length on lists. So it could return nil or signal an error at the same cost.
<pjb>
But since nth already returned nil, it was more interesting to return an error, just like in the case for vectors.
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<sthalik>
hey
<beach>
Hello sthalik.
<sthalik>
did anything functionally a standard "extension" happen in the last few years?
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<beach>
An extension to the Common Lisp standard? No.
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<sthalik>
well, it's not like one's obliged to use-package '#:cl
<beach>
I don't understand.
<sthalik>
things like generic sequences
<asarch>
Is there any way to know what a package is actually exporting?
<beach>
Yes, but I don't understand your first question. Mainly because I don't understand the grammar of the sentence.
<phoe>
as in pattern matching? that would be a question to the trivia/optima libraries
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<sthalik>
phoe, yeah but provable exhaustibility
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<sthalik>
optima throws a runtime error in the non-exhaustibility case. that's disappointing.
<aeth>
You can define a member type with a custom macro that also defines a custom ecase. The custom ecase can verify that every member in the member type foo is a clause in the foo-ecase macro and only members of that member type foo. At compile time. Afaik. It doesn't sound particularly hard, either.
<sthalik>
beach, thank you for the info and links
<beach>
Anytime!
<sthalik>
(I remember removing all dwarf-eh sections from built programs)
<aeth>
Now, that's just a tiny part of the problem, but I think the basic solution form would hold. Generate a function and a macro in a macro, and call that function in the macro to verify that the macro is valid
<sthalik>
aeth, compilers like SBCL have inference done on the matched datum. can you access that?
<sthalik>
e.g. assume some generic datum passed in, SBCL will assume there's no contradiction
<aeth>
I don't think you can access SBCL's type inference. At least, I haven't seen a library do that. You'd have to use type declarations if you can't.
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<sthalik>
aeth, can a pattern-matching library like that access, say, CHECK-TYPE or DECLARE TYPE?
<aeth>
specialization-store, an otherwise wonderful library for type-based generic functions, cannot access anything other than type declarations from DECLARE as well as FTYPE declarations afaik.
<sthalik>
aeth, but a pattern-matching library won't infer (or access the info from the compiler) whether the pattern is exhaustible, will it?
<aeth>
I don't think there's any more information available at compile time than the information that's in introspect-environment, but I could be wrong. If there is, it would be incredibly non-portable.
<aeth>
I'm guessing there isn't more because there are libraries that could benefit from more.
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<sthalik>
I agree, about the lack of common denominator across compilers
<Shinmera>
You can do more, but it is highly implementation specific.
<sthalik>
then it's SB-PATTERN-MATCHING, sort of ruins the mood
<sthalik>
sorry, I'm being a pain in the butt on purpose, but the point stands nonetheless :|
<aeth>
If someone could port some of SBCL's behavior to CCL, it would no longer become implementation specific!
<aeth>
(Or vice versa)
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<sthalik>
or maybe do an inference library
<sthalik>
in the type-reconstruction fashion, of course
<aeth>
sthalik: What do you have in mind? Can you put some invalid code in a pastebin that you wish would work?
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<sthalik>
aeth, rather, what's potentially recognized as valid that ought be guaranteed recognized as invalid
<sthalik>
progn (+ datum expr_1) (aref datum . rest)
<aeth>
I think SBCL would catch that.
<sthalik>
yes, it would
<sthalik>
but it's not guaranteed, thus a pattern-matching library can't guarantee that
<sthalik>
you know how well doing matches structures program flow?
<sthalik>
now it's mainstream, C# took the good bits from F#. I had a brief stint with F#.
<sthalik>
you remember Jon Harrop on cll?
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<sthalik>
damn arrogant guy was right so often
<aeth>
oh comp.lang.lisp
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* lieven
must have missed the many times Harrop was right. The arrogant part is spot on.
<sthalik>
lieven, people engaging in the arguments on Lisp's side made a straw man out of type systems so Harrop had an easy time
<aeth>
What was the argument? If I read it, it was so long ago that I don't recall
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<sthalik>
aeth, Lisp side: type systems peak at C89. pattern matching doesn't improve program flow
<aeth>
huh? CL has some types that are only recently fashionable, like (or null foo)
<sthalik>
aeth, DEFTYPE can't compare
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<sthalik>
I don't remember the syntax but this is invalid, as per stack overflow:
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<sthalik>
deftype lets-crash (t) '(cons t (or null lets-crash))
<jackdaniel>
sthalik: unless it is a type based on `satisfies', then function associated with it may compare object with anything
<aeth>
sthalik: The built in typed conses are... lacking in many ways. However, most implementations now (or hopefully soon) enforce :type in slots on structs, so you can create your own typed cons.
<jackdaniel>
or did I misunderstood the sentence?
<jackdaniel>
hum
<sthalik>
jackdaniel, recursive type definitions are explicitly disallowed
<aeth>
Typed conses are pretty trivial to write, only a few hundred lines.
<aeth>
(Oh, my implementation started at a few dozen and it'll probably end at a thousand)
<sthalik>
aeth, did you go for arbitrary-length typed lists?
<lieven>
the lisp side argument was mostly that lisp is a dynamic language and that so far attempts to mesh a static type system with it are clumsy.
<aeth>
It's getting increasingly messy, though, so I might use inline specialization-store specializations instead of prefixes.
<aeth>
The core of it is just a three line defstruct to have a car of type and a cdr of (or null type-cons)
<aeth>
Yes, it's not as powerful as a Lisp cons and is only for lists. A separate kind of cons could be created for trees that has less guarantees.
<aeth>
An early version was benchmarked to only be a 30% performance loss in SBCL, iirc.
<aeth>
Now, there's lots of things about type systems that are lacking in CL, but typed conses via structs seem to be doable. Probably even immutable ones with :read-only, although probably not useful without the language itself optimizing them
<sthalik>
tag bits vs type info
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<sthalik>
technically one can "freeze" a definition but then it's the "sufficiently smart compiler" fallacy
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<sthalik>
aeth, how much can the compiler infer in practice?
<aeth>
I do think that if CL has a weakness it's in its limited set of collections available, especially lacking in immutability and non-generic versions (except for specialized arrays).
<aeth>
e.g. If CL had built-in hash tables that could only hold type foo, then the compiler would know on the GETHASH what the type is (if it knew the type of the hash table), which would remove a lot of declare/the/check-type/etc.
<sthalik>
lieven, there was plenty of ignorance on modern type systems on the Lisp side
<sthalik>
aeth, OTOH arrays with element-type are good about not boxing
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<aeth>
Right, I just which :element-type would work on more things and in more make-foos
<aeth>
That would be 90% of the way to making CL "modern" imo.
<sthalik>
yeah, not user-defined types :|
<aeth>
One problem with :element-type is that you can't e.g. store (integer 0 10), it'll round it to probably (integer 0 15) or something.
<sthalik>
pack bits are worse
<aeth>
Sure, internally, it should round it, but it would be nice if it actually remembered you wanted to store (integer 0 10) so the type information isn't lost across the function boundary.
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<sthalik>
so much is lost across the function boundary
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<aeth>
SBCL has sb-ext:*derive-function-types* which when enabled allows the non-standard behavior of assuming that the ftype of a function will never change.
<aeth>
It's good to have that option, but you still lose information in data structures like hash-tables and lists
<sthalik>
what's the purpose of statically-knowing the element type being fixnum between 0 and 10?
<aeth>
sthalik: Overflow
<aeth>
If for some reason you add (- most-positive-fixnum 20) or something, it knows it stays as a fixnum and so uses much faster arithmetic
<sthalik>
aeth, at some point we'd grow a tree shaker too
<aeth>
If you disassemble that on SBCL you get good disassembly.
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<sthalik>
what if you boilerplate-declaimed ftype and so on?
<sthalik>
is it any different than the extension?
<sthalik>
not that I'm partial for the boilerplate or anything!
<aeth>
I personally have a define-function macro, so in my game engine I would write it as (define-function foo ((x (integer 0 10))) (+ (- most-positive-fixnum 10) x))
<sthalik>
wow, time for coffee, then pepper you with questions
<aeth>
Usually SBCL does a good job at deriving the return type and I don't think the other implementations have an ftype so I don't care about supporting return types. At some point I'd support it as an option
<aeth>
But I think that would require a third generated defun so I have been procrastinating that
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<sthalik>
is a code walker with shadowed COMPILE remotely sensible?
<sthalik>
now that I think of, the argument-environment bits for a walker aren't even necessary
<sthalik>
aeth, how is GC for soft-realtime games? do you dynamic-extent the closures?
<aeth>
sthalik: Personally, I preallocate everything that I can and use dynamic-extent on the rest. This is a bit... eccentric and no one else in #lispgames has a game loop style remotely as restrictive as this.
<aeth>
This is for the engine's game loop only, though. I don't think I'd ever finish anything if I tried to use this style for the whole program.
<sthalik>
you mean for the render tick or for the update tick?
<sthalik>
do you have an asset-loading thread?
<sthalik>
from my experience, consing in the render tick is suicide
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* shrdlu68
wonders what the guys over at #lispgames are building.
<aeth>
Everything called from zombie-raptor/core/window::game-loop doesn't cons in SBCL. It's too hard to profile other implementations for this, and possibly impossible even if I could profile them.
<aeth>
(Obviously if I loaded assets while the game loop was running I wouldn't be able to keep this restriction to this extreme anymore.)
<sthalik>
that's not completely true
<aeth>
In CL it might be true, though.
<sthalik>
some FFI decompression code won't trigger CL collections
<aeth>
I currently only FFI SDL and OpenGL, and I'd like to keep it that way.
<sthalik>
then what about your image assets?
<sthalik>
ah, SDL_image
<aeth>
The way my engine is structured, it doesn't even load images! I have loaded images before in some of my unpublished tests, but I feed in the texture assets to the make-window function.
<sthalik>
it all gave me a horrible idea.
<sthalik>
why not jump-start the game project in Lisp
<sthalik>
it's not like proper type derivation is even necessary
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<sthalik>
in multiple C++ projects I've hit a roadblock where there's a decent amount of top-down design that can't go away
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<aeth>
sthalik: What game project?
<sthalik>
even at this point there's no remote equivalent of lexical non-local return in fancy static languages
<sthalik>
I miss it more than even macros
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<sthalik>
aeth, what good are games if they're just iterative improvements? if it's ever done, it must transgress boundaries and do what was thought to be not feasible
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<sthalik>
aeth, Falcon 4.0 included a persistent ground/air war simulation. post-mortem interviews explained "we didn't know any better"
<sthalik>
so why not an RPG-alike with decent Falcon 4.0 influence. remember Ultima 7?
<sthalik>
these professions not just window dressing, but something that uses resources.
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<sthalik>
in the end, task it good enough to prevent everyone from dying out of thirst.
<aeth>
I think the limiting factor is normally art. When the game devs don't care about art (e.g. Dwarf Fortress) they can do ridiculous things
<sthalik>
aeth, bootstrap using a Qt window with unicode/24-bit color and tooltips
<aeth>
On the other hand, when something's AAA photorealistic, everything is so expensive to make *and* you don't want to increase the risk by venturing too far from the formula
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<sthalik>
the final plan is to do isometric, at least Arcanum-level
<sthalik>
I've done some baked sprites in Max, but then the amount of props is just too much
<sthalik>
lamps, bookshelves, beds, name it
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<aeth>
I plan on doing space games, at least for now. Space is mostly empty. No, even more empty than that.
<sthalik>
Fallout-or-bust, an absolute prohibition on perspective projection
<sthalik>
aeth, read on Rogue System. it was also to be inspired by Falcon 4.0.
<sthalik>
there's a modern maintained F4 derivative based on stolen code. current copyright holders allow it as a gentleman's agreement.
<sthalik>
in fact it's in their own best interest.
<aeth>
We should probably take this to #lispgames before someone complains
<sthalik>
okay
<aeth>
(this is the strictest lisp channel as far as topic enforcement goes)
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<p_l>
lol @ strictest...
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<aeth>
p_l: Well, #lispcafe does a very bad job at enforcing off-topicness and is often about Lisp.
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<p_l>
:D
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<thekolb>
Xach: I have this weird situation where a dependency wants asdf3 but my quicklisp has asdf2? I did update-client but that didn’t upgrade asdf?
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<thekolb>
(don’t ask me how I ended up with a dependency that wants asdf3 in the first place, good question though)
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<Shinmera>
Quicklisp only ships ASDF2.
<Shinmera>
Update your implementation or download a recent ASDF
<Shinmera>
Also lots of dependencies require ASDF3 nowadays (for instance: all of my libraries)
<thekolb>
I am running the latest CCL from Nov2017?!
<thekolb>
why do I not have asdf3 (-:
<thekolb>
something wrong with my installation I suppose
<thekolb>
MichaelRaskin: any reason why the NixOs ccl wouldn’t come with asdf3?
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<MichaelRaskin>
I think the Nix package ships whatever upstream ships.
<jackdaniel>
thekolb: asdf is not part of the standard (given how it constantly changes that would mean that our standard is progressing!). You may download lastest asdf relase, compile it and put (load …) in your .cclrc before loading quicklisp
<jackdaniel>
that will give you whichever asdf you want to have
<jackdaniel>
you may compile it with (compile-file "asdf.lisp")
<MichaelRaskin>
Nixpkgs has various Lisp wrappers, these do use ASDF3
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<Xach>
thekolb: clozure cl has asdf 3!
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<thekolb>
MichaelRaskin: the ccl package on NixOS is broken (doesn’t set CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY)
<MichaelRaskin>
Hm, we already set CCL_RUNTIME
<MichaelRaskin>
What should CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY be in addition?
<MichaelRaskin>
Ah, it's only build-time
<thekolb>
MichaelRaskin: CCL_RUNTIME has no effect on ccl whatsoever and seems to be a variable introduced by the Nix expression for referencing the kernel
<MichaelRaskin>
Shoud CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY point to the copied root?
<thekolb>
MichaelRaskin: CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY is a variable used by ccl to refer t its installation destination
<thekolb>
yes
<thekolb>
see scripts/ccl
<MichaelRaskin>
Hmmm. Maybe scripts/ccl should be also wrapped or symlinked into bin/
<Xach>
unanimousarc: well, it's a bit more subtle than that
<Shinmera>
unanimousarc: It will remain /downloaded/ on disk, but not /loaded/
<unanimousarc>
Xach: so I need to put the (ql:quickload) in my sbcl-init.lisp ?
<Xach>
unanimousarc: shinmera is right
<MichaelRaskin>
thekolb: I think CCL defaults to the image location if CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY is unset; given the details of the Nix package that seems to mean the variable is irrelevant
<phoe>
unanimousarc: quicklisp fetches the dependencies from the network and then invokes ASDF to load the system into memory.
<MichaelRaskin>
Let me check with a fresh user and nix-env
<Xach>
unanimousarc: there are many options, that's one
<phoe>
the former is persistent, the latter needs to be done after each reload of the Lisp image.
<unanimousarc>
Okay cool, thanks
<phoe>
you can theoretically save the resulting Lisp image and then reload that one, but it's not commonly done during development - better to just #'ql:quickload things again.
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<MichaelRaskin>
thekolb: (quit :asdf3) doesn't work, a true if is needed there
<MichaelRaskin>
If you run «which ccl», do you actually get the version in the profile? If you just run CCL, what version is reported?
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<thekolb>
MichaelRaskin: yes
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<thekolb>
MichaelRaskin: Can you still not reproduce this?
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<MichaelRaskin>
Well, in a fresh test account I use your installation command (well, with -p, I have a complicated non-default setup) — it gives CCL which loads ASDF3
<thekolb>
I don’t know what else to tell you...
<thekolb>
I have /nix/store/32xnrnrf399nxf616fxihx00qi6xb4mv-ccl-1.11.5 and its broken
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, I could try to pastebin a nix-expression that imports from a fixed revision and checks CCL in build-time — failure-or-success of Nix builds is less environment-dependent than installation
<MichaelRaskin>
Ah!
<MichaelRaskin>
I have the same path and it is not broken when I try to test it
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<thekolb>
If I run ccl -n and do (require 'asdf) I get an error
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<thekolb>
is your pwd the ccl source tree by any chance?^^
<MichaelRaskin>
Definitely not
<phoe>
thekolb: what kind of error?
<MichaelRaskin>
Does this also error: env -i /nix/store/32xnrnrf399nxf616fxihx00qi6xb4mv-ccl-1.11.5/bin/ccl -n -e '(require :asdf)'
<thekolb>
Ah!
<thekolb>
it doesn’t
<MichaelRaskin>
And the same without env -i ?
<thekolb>
omg I’m sorry, apparently there is a bogus CCL_DEFAULT_DIRECTORY in my environment
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<MichaelRaskin>
Heh
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<MichaelRaskin>
That's why I sometimes test in an empty user
<unanimousarc>
sjl_: definitely checking out that chip8 series
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* Xach
must really fix his planet lisp twitter gateway again
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<Shinmera>
Speaking of twitter, there were some API deprecations regarding direct messages that I haven't had time to fix in Chirp.
<Shinmera>
Don't know when I can be bothered to fix them either
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<drmeister>
With asdf - is there a way to get a tree of dependencies from a system? I have a groveler that I use for finding all files required by a system in the order that they need to be loaded.
<Shinmera>
Ha ha, oh boy the CCL source for infinity-p has a comment: ; not sure this is right
<drmeister>
The groveler has a function that says it returns all of the systems required by given list of systems. I think this may be what I need.
<drmeister>
But I want to build the tree of dependencies.
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<drmeister>
I want to parallelize the building of the tree - so I need to know what it looks like first.
<Shinmera>
drmeister: Sure, holy on
<Shinmera>
*hold
<drmeister>
If it's a linear sequence - well - then I need to put some work into splitting things out a bit to make it a tree.
<drmeister>
Shinmera: Thank you - I'll keep spitting out what I'm looking for - maybe someone will have some thoughts on it.
<pjb>
AeroNotix: if you want to compare with numbers, you have a big problem: numbers are not ordered!
<drmeister>
Then I'll need to time how long each system needs to build it - then I want to organize the build so that it takes as little time as possible using multiple processes.
<pjb>
AeroNotix: in lisp, numbers include complex numbers, and complex numbers are not ordered.
<drmeister>
Basically - I want to parallelize the building of a large collection of asdf systems so they build as quickly as possible. Given that POIU is MIA for current versions of ASDF.
<drmeister>
AFAIK
<pjb>
AeroNotix: then if you want to restrict yourself to real, then in lisp we have most-positive-long-float that is bigger than all floats, but not to all integers.
<AeroNotix>
I just need something bigger than all integers
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<pjb>
AeroNotix: for integers, there's no such value.
<drmeister>
Shinmera: Thank you - I'll give it a whirl.
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<pjb>
AeroNotix: at a given time, there's a maximum representable integer, but since it may depend on the available memory, it may grow later.
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<pjb>
AeroNotix: so you have to use a symbol, and implement your own comparisons.
<AeroNotix>
Okay
<pjb>
(defun inferior (a b) (or (eql :-infinity a) (eql :+infinity b) …))
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<pjb>
AeroNotix: you may also shadow < <= etc. calling cl:< cl:<= etc when you only have numbers.
<pjb>
(not real methods, just functions, since there are 0-n arguments.
<pjb>
)
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<drmeister>
Shinmera: Is the information about system dependencies available after I load-asd - or do I need to load-system everything?
<drmeister>
I'm about to find out...
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<jackdaniel>
drmeister: you need to load all asd file (i.e by find-system), but there is no need to load systems into the image
<jackdaniel>
it is quite problematic as it is anyway, because asd files are programs, but not as bad as being forced to load all libraries to learn their dependencies
<drmeister>
Does find-system of the top asd load all dependent asd files?
<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: Does ECL have something similar to sb-int:with-float-traps-masked that allows you to mask which floating point traps signal conditions?
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<jackdaniel>
yes
<drmeister>
I'm trying to avoid doing more work than I need to do.
<jackdaniel>
I mean: yes to floats
<jackdaniel>
regarding asdf, I don't know
<Shinmera>
drmeister: No
<Shinmera>
drmeister: It only loads a system file if it has to due to :defsystem-depends-on or due to find-system
<drmeister>
And I have a relationship with asdf that is characterized by timidity.
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<theseb>
You can really define the entire lang in terms of about 8 primitives? Why does that seem impossible to me? Think of how complex common lisp is
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<Xach>
theseb: it's easy if one of the primitives is make-load-form-saving-slots.
<Shinmera>
The semantics, yes. But an implementation still needs to do a lot more -- like handling OPEN, I/O, etc.
<Xach>
sorry, joking around.
<pjb>
theseb: you only need one primitive.
<theseb>
Shinmera: aha! yes..i knew something was missing!!! All the //side effects// were not mentioned like I/O!
<theseb>
Paul Graham *lied* to me
<theseb>
dammit
<theseb>
srsly...someone should mention that
<pjb>
theseb: Von Neuman architecture only needs 1 microinstruction (conditional-move).
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<MichaelRaskin>
Well, if you target Plan9 you don't need many I/O primitives, and then they cover all the OS interaction…
<pjb>
theseb: with lambda calculus, you can implement state and I/O by simulating the whole universe!
<pjb>
theseb: this is actually how our universe comes to be.
<pjb>
theseb: there's a "desire", or "universal love" or "god" that makes kinds of quantum fluctuations in the mathematical world generate random mathemathical objects. Functions and lambda calculus are actually very simple mathematical objects, and thus appear naturally, and "develop" (are "created") by themselves, until find this god lambda calculus program that decides to simulate the whole universe and to reproduce little simulatio
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<theseb>
pjb: that was deep
<theseb>
thank i guess
<pjb>
theseb: also, it's not very hard to implement a hardware simulation to do I/O in pure lambda calculus.
<theseb>
pjb: imho..i think it best to just punt and define an abstract "input" and "output" primitive
<housel>
tedious, but not hard
<theseb>
pjb: both just accept and emit bit strings
<pjb>
theseb: of course, if you want to hook to other universes, such as ours, you can always branch out to primitives implemented in another system, eg. in electrons and silicium atoms.
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<pjb>
(but notice the funny nature of fermions and bosons that are both just probability wave functions, ie. not any more real than lambda calculus functions).
<theseb>
pjb: what the #$@#$? why are you making this so complicated? i'm suggesting a simple input and output primitive while you want to hook up to other universes!?!!? am i missing something?
<pjb>
theseb: our universe is one of those other universes.
<pjb>
maths is not in our universe.
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<pjb>
I just explained that our unvierse was in maths.
<Shinmera>
Please >>##philosophy
<pjb>
Well, this is this infamous question about primitives. Forget them.
<pjb>
Primives, like axioms, are your own totally and entirely subjective and arbitrary choice.
<theseb>
pjb: i like that link....avoid english and use lispy mini-langs instead to bootstrap
<theseb>
pjb: i think that is the "Lisp Way (TM)"...to define layers of langs
<pjb>
or realize that lisp was created 50 years ago, and that we don't need to bootstrap anymore: just write CL in CL.
<pjb>
You might need to bootstrap again if you go to Mars, and a meteor destroys all computing equipment.
<pjb>
Then you will have to mine metals, build a new computer, and program it, bootstrapping, hopefully, a new lisp system.
<theseb>
pjb: actually...imagine we worked in a sector where security was paramount.....i wonder if defining layers of langs somehow avoids potential security holes
<pjb>
(Assuming transport with Earth is not possible anymore).
<pjb>
theseb: yes, there's also this case.
<theseb>
pjb: my point is...going hardcore on the math and axioms has its uses
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<drmeister>
Within clasp I am going (require :asdf) --> loads clasps shiped 3.3.1.2 version of ASDF
<drmeister>
Then I'm going (load "quicklisp:setup.lisp") (I set up a hostname for it)
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<pjb>
drmeister: not really.
<pjb>
drmeister: it helps testing for a version, or higher, since in general releases are backward compatible.
<drmeister>
Probably not - I don't know what all those features are for - they may not be related to the warning.
<drmeister>
Ok.
<pjb>
drmeister: ie. ASDF 4.0 will probably be compatible with asdf 3.3, asdf 3 and asdf 2, so all those features will have to be present.
<pjb>
It would be different in a *system-version-map* ;-)
<drmeister>
Do you know why the warning is being generated? I cloned quicklisp-client.git from github and I'm using that. When I load the quicklisp:setup.lisp I get that warning even after I've loaded an asdf.
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<jackdaniel>
drmeister: sys:modules;asdf;asdf is part of clasp core modules (build with it)
<drmeister>
Yes
<jackdaniel>
it is a logical pathname to something like /usr/lib/clasp-x.x.x/modules/asdf2.fasl
<jackdaniel>
and warning is being generated from ASDF itself, it doesn't like its previous incarnations. it is not about asdf2 being loaded, but mere about being present in the path
<jackdaniel>
s/path/location where asdf looks for asd files/
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<drmeister>
asdf uses timestamps to figure out what it needs to build
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<drmeister>
is that correct?
<drmeister>
I'm dropping source code and a cache directory full of compiled files into a docker image and then running code.
<drmeister>
asdf is rebuilding everything even though the timestamps are preserved - so I'm a bit puzzled.
<Shinmera>
Yes
<Shinmera>
At least as far as I know it uses mtime
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<drmeister>
Is there a function like (asdf:why-the f*ck-are-you-rebuilding-everything system)?
<Shinmera>
You can manually build an ASDF action plan (I showed you how once before) -- the plan should only include things that need to be done, excluding already performed operations
<Shinmera>
Then you can try tracing select functions in ASDF to see where it's getting things from
<drmeister>
I'll try that.
<drmeister>
Do you have a link where you told me how to build an ASDF action plan?
<Shinmera>
No
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<amz31>
hey
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<AeroNotix>
is there an asdf function that can find the modules that the `:components` key describes. Alternatively, a function that gives me the asdf definition?
<Shinmera>
asdf:find-component, if I remember correctly
<Shinmera>
base being the system or other super-component.
<Shinmera>
Or what exactly do you want? re-reading the message I'm not so sure.
<Shinmera>
If you want the list of components in the system definition, asdf:component-children
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<no-defun-allowed>
Good morning everyone!
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<pierpa>
hey antipodean!
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<no-defun-allowed>
G'day mate
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<dim>
hi!
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<dim>
I think I fixed my IRC settings and am able to chat here again ;-)
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<jgkamat>
:D
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<dim>
jgkamat: thanks for confirming it works (that's how I read it)
* jgkamat
reads dim loud and clear
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<aeth>
dim: Idk, I think the most graceful way for an IRC client to fail is to pretend like it's working, complete with fake conversations. The conversations are even predictable: talk about how the IRC client is now working.
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* jgkamat
wonders if he is a robot
<no-defun-allowed>
jgkamat: [ ] I am not a robot
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<aeth>
Well you don't have JS enabled so you can't check it
<aeth>
therefore, you are a robot
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<jgkamat>
^
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<no-defun-allowed>
;-;
<jgkamat>
I cannot evaluate js, therefore I am turing complete? xD