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<sputterguy>
hey what's up all
<sputterguy>
azonenberg: still thinking about what i can do with the dielectric sputtering
<sputterguy>
ion-beam sputtering
<sputterguy>
i've been busy attending to other stuff this week
<azonenberg>
Fun, I need to learn more about sputtering
<sputterguy>
figured you might be interested in learning together about what can be done to get insulators sputtered
<azonenberg>
i've done a little bit of it but not much, just coating SEM specimens
<azonenberg>
the only deposition techniques i've studied in any significant detail are spin coating and evaporation
<sputterguy>
yeah i'm trying to use one of those to grow some samples for an astrobiology group
<sputterguy>
i see. i built a thermal evaporator just last month
<sputterguy>
it's old school. uses a diffusion pump
<azonenberg>
at home from scratch?
<sputterguy>
no, in a lab
<sputterguy>
but it certainly felt like i could do it at home
<sputterguy>
the equipment is circa 1960s
<sputterguy>
huge ass bell jar
<azonenberg>
we have one of those in the SEM lab
<azonenberg>
used for evaporation on SEM specimens to gold/carbon coat them
<sputterguy>
yeah i want to make some samples that mimic some of the conditions on mars and asteroids in the kuiper belt
<azonenberg>
how so?
<azonenberg>
what structures i mean
<sputterguy>
i want to make some super simple capacitor-like structures
<azonenberg>
hmm
<sputterguy>
some metal, a ceramic, and some more metal
<azonenberg>
if you want high-K you can spin coat Ta2O5
<sputterguy>
lol, you sound like a semiconductor guy all right
<azonenberg>
or reactive sputter a metallic Ta target with O2 i think
<sputterguy>
high-K is highly unnatural :p
<azonenberg>
Lol
<sputterguy>
i got an ion-beam sputtering machine meant for coating samples with metal
<sputterguy>
i need to figure out how to get ceramics sputtered
<azonenberg>
If you want metal oxides
<azonenberg>
how about mixing a little O2 with the Ar?
<sputterguy>
i was actually seriously contemplating sputtering real rocks found on earth on artificially created templates made of silicon
<azonenberg>
that should give you reactive sputtering
<sputterguy>
the system is not meant for that and i also don't have pure oxygen
<azonenberg>
I see
<sputterguy>
this system just flows argon, but your suggestion is a valid one otherwise
<azonenberg>
I just know that you can do DC reactive sputtering
<azonenberg>
to deposit nonconductive oxides from conductive targets
<sputterguy>
this is basically dc sputtering. the difference is we use a "directional plasma" also called an ion beam
<azonenberg>
like Ta target + Ar sputter + O2 mixed with Ar => Ta2O5
<sputterguy>
yeah
<azonenberg>
So why will reactive sputtering not work?
<azonenberg>
I'm not familiar with your specific setup
<sputterguy>
it'll void the warranty :p
<azonenberg>
Lol
<sputterguy>
it's a fairly new system still. we actually called up the guys and they said it's possible to do and they have some unpublished experimental data that supports the idea that it can be done
<azonenberg>
but they make no guarantees it'll survive?
<azonenberg>
and is that O2 specifically or reactive sputtering in general?
<azonenberg>
you could also do nitrides by mixing in some N2
<azonenberg>
say, highly doped Si wafer as target -> Si3N4
<sputterguy>
they make no guarantees that we don't end up damaging the ion guns. it may oxidize the electrodes making it difficult to strike a localized plasma aka ion beam
<sputterguy>
and reactive sputtering in general
<sputterguy>
we could also end up with metal nitrides we don't want
<sputterguy>
i'm also trading the currency markets so tonight is primetime night
<sputterguy>
short eur/usd from 1.2990
<azonenberg>
@_@
<azonenberg>
So idk if you were in the channel when i mentioned this but i just got some nice ACS grade solvents
<azonenberg>
i had been cleaning stuff with hardware store grade chemicals and it left too much residue
<sputterguy>
nice how did you get that?
<azonenberg>
not that i'm trying to do transistors yet, but when i do that's going to kill me
<azonenberg>
online supplier of course
<azonenberg>
~500ml each of acetone and IPA
<azonenberg>
the place did not have any ethyl acetate in stock at the time so i need to try another vendor
<azonenberg>
i've been using acetone as a spin coating solvent but it evaporates too fast
<azonenberg>
i also need to finish my v2.0 spin coater
<azonenberg>
v1.0 fits in the fume hood, barely, but obstructs airflow and doesn't get good ventilation
<azonenberg>
v2 will be much lower profile and avoid all of those issues
<sputterguy>
cool
<sputterguy>
why do you do everything at home?
<azonenberg>
The point of my work here is to figure out if you can get simple ASIC fab (like a couple of 74xx chips at least) to the same status as PCB etching, perhaps up a notch or two in difficulty
<azonenberg>
something a motivated hobbyist can do in a well-equipped home lab
<azonenberg>
but that work is subordinate to my thesis and coursework so it's moving slowly
<sputterguy>
what is your thesis and coursework?
<azonenberg>
My thesis is on OS/CPU/SoC design and security
<sputterguy>
cool
<sputterguy>
tech's such a fun field
<sputterguy>
so much to do and explore
<azonenberg>
basically taking the classic lines of what's done in the CPU and what's done by the OS and moving them around a bit
<sputterguy>
i'm getting sleepy again. almost said fuch a sun field
<azonenberg>
to improve security
<sputterguy>
i see
<sputterguy>
quite frankly your hobby sounds more interesting than your coursework :p
<azonenberg>
Lol i'm extremely into both
<azonenberg>
which leaves me very little time to do anything else, not that i care
<sputterguy>
as long as you love doing it, who cares right?
<azonenberg>
yep
<azonenberg>
i mean i do fairly advanced work on my research too :P
<sputterguy>
especially for shooting the shit with internet techies
<azonenberg>
and lol, if i wanted to get rich i'd just go work at a bank on wall street
<sputterguy>
beautiful
<azonenberg>
i love my work too much
<sputterguy>
it's fun to make your money work as hard for you as you work for it
<sputterguy>
also if you like reading the news and stuff, this lets you monetize that
<sputterguy>
i know a buddy of mine who trades oil futures
<azonenberg>
@_@
<sputterguy>
he makes like a paycheck a night
<sputterguy>
what is @_@?
<sputterguy>
is that like O_O?
<azonenberg>
more like (blank glazed-over eyes)
<azonenberg>
i prefer to just mind my own business and play in a lab all day lol
<azonenberg>
i've already decided that if i'm offered a promotion to management in a future job i will decline
<azonenberg>
and if they insist, turn in my two weeks' notice right then and there
<sputterguy>
i know people who have a good, reliable system. they just make a trade and then get on with life. do what you want and have your money having money babies for you
<sputterguy>
hot $100 on $100 action
<azonenberg>
lol
<sputterguy>
but right now i want to make sure i can sputter some moondust on my samples
<azonenberg>
i dont have the spare cash to fool with investing
<azonenberg>
the one time i tried stocks all of the shares i picked increased in value, but not enough to cover the sum of buy and sell fees
<azonenberg>
so i took a net loss of like $20 even though everything went up :P
<sputterguy>
stocks aren't worth it
<sputterguy>
currency markets are way larger
<azonenberg>
what's more, i dont have the patience to do the research necessary to make accurate forecasts and turn a profit
<azonenberg>
it's just not something i have any interest in
<azonenberg>
i'd rather spend that time in the lab
<sputterguy>
you'd be surprised how many scientists and engineers do apply their knowledge to it
<azonenberg>
well, they're welcome to it
<sputterguy>
it's a fun application of stuff you know to something you know little about
<azonenberg>
personally i'd like to see securities trading eliminated entirely, along with most of the financial sector, and replaced with peer-to-peer currency :p
<azonenberg>
now that we have a global communications infrastructure there's no need for a middleman anymore
<sputterguy>
i got a few bitcoins from 2010 too
<sputterguy>
best investment i ever made
<sputterguy>
10k% up
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<sputterguy>
i should have sold when it hit $50/BTC, but oh well
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<azonenberg>
So this moon dust you're depositing
<azonenberg>
is it one material?
<azonenberg>
or multiple substances
<sputterguy>
i don't trust bitcoins much. they still have a long way to go. just yesterday my laptop which had maybe a few millibitcoins (mBTC) crashed and now i don't have a functioning bitcoin wallet on that computer
<sputterguy>
azonenberg: i was joking... i want to make it like moondust. aluminum oxide, silicon oxide, zinc oxide, maybe a little calcium and a little magnesium thrown in
<azonenberg>
No, i mean the as-deposited structure
<sputterguy>
it's should be a heterogeneous mixture
<azonenberg>
do you want layers or more of an irregular granular structure or what?
<sputterguy>
layers of irregular granular structure
<azonenberg>
And you want to do that by sputtering?
<sputterguy>
well, sputtering and annealing
<azonenberg>
So you want to recrystallize the layers after deposition?
<sputterguy>
yeah
<sputterguy>
the phase diagrams get very complex very fast
<azonenberg>
i can imagine
<azonenberg>
speaking of phase diagrams in 10 hours i'm going to be looking at some 304 SS under the TEM
<sputterguy>
oooh TEM, exotic
<sputterguy>
fancy man's got a fancy machine
<azonenberg>
not at home :P
<azonenberg>
i'm taking a semester-long course on EM techniques
<azonenberg>
we just finished the first half, which was on SEM
<sputterguy>
very cool
<sputterguy>
hitachi? jeol?
<azonenberg>
there are at least three SEMs i know of
<azonenberg>
we trained on an old jeol (JSM-840)
<azonenberg>
there is an amray, forget the model, in the room next door
<azonenberg>
and a zeiss supra 55 in the cleanroom
<azonenberg>
plus a super-nice zeiss crossbeam SEM/FIB also in the cleanroom
<azonenberg>
i'm not allowed to touch it yet though :P
<sputterguy>
i just closed a trade on eur/usd (missed out on about 10 pips = 100 bucks profit)... 60 pip profit = 600 bucks
<sputterguy>
meanwhile i was reading about how ion beam sputtering causes extreme localized heating that metals can dissipate
<sputterguy>
but insulators....
<sputterguy>
gah, need to figure a way out for that
<sputterguy>
no way to water cool the thing
<sputterguy>
hmm then again it is an insulator...
<sputterguy>
melting point of aluminum oxide is 2,072° C
<Sync>
sputterguy: I can ask my prof if that works
<sputterguy>
if what works?
<sputterguy>
just loading up the insulator in the reactor and hoping for the best? lol
<sputterguy>
that's what i'm about ready to do
<sputterguy>
i also am QCM-less. stupid manufacturer decided you can't have both large area sputter coating and accurate thickness measurements
<Sync>
well
<Sync>
I actually have sputtered aluminium oxide, but I just used rf sputtering
<sputterguy>
ion-beam sputtering should be in theory superior to other forms of sputtering in terms of damage incurred on the sample and in terms of range of materials that can be accommodated
<sputterguy>
this machine's purpose is to coat samples for SEM analysis though
<Sync>
just try it
<Sync>
what should happen
<Sync>
it's not even going to do strange stuff to the inside of the chamber
<sputterguy>
i think you're right
<Sync>
metallic stuff might cause arcovers and crap like that
<sputterguy>
well i think what people do is they mount aluminum oxide targets onto copper plates so as to maximize the metal that is in contact with the aluminum oxide target
<sputterguy>
that way greater heat dissipation is offered, but i don't think it really matters here
<Sync>
how much of hte material do you want to deposit?
<sputterguy>
i'm going to start small
<sputterguy>
10 nm
<sputterguy>
but i have no QCM
<sputterguy>
so i'm relying on random stuff i find on the internet
<Sync>
well
<Sync>
then you are fucked
<Sync>
you can try to measure the thickness with AFM and then see if the thickness keeps uniform
<Sync>
when you use the same parameters
<Sync>
but, coincidence, just going to run two cal wafers after the EIES repair
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<sputterguy>
yeah i guess we'll see how it goes
<Sync>
a QCM should be easy enough to make
<sputterguy>
finally got everything setup the way i wanted
<sputterguy>
prep time always takes forever here
<sputterguy>
so if i just wanted a very simple (from bottom to top) Au/Al/Al2O3/Al capacitor, how thick would I need to make the aluminum to get good ohmic contact with the aluminum oxide?
<sputterguy>
i had gold already put down on some glass so i figured i'd use it to cut down on the time sputtering the bottom aluminum electrode
<sputterguy>
but i want to make sure the structure is an aluminum electrode capacitor with an aluminum oxide dielectric
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<Sync>
good question sputterguy
<Sync>
when my process is running I'll ask someone that knows
<sputterguy>
i longed eur/usd at 1.3032. i was busy doing work and it didn't hit my profit target and i didn't notice... so instead of being up 600 + 150 bucks for the night. i'm just up 600 + 30 bucks right now
<sputterguy>
i generally ignore patents as a source of low content
<Sync>
I genereally do not speculate with money
<sputterguy>
i'm hooked. i've been toying with my strategy for a while now. only started using real money since may
<Sync>
I rather work 2 days and take a k
<sputterguy>
a k?
<sputterguy>
$500/day?
<Sync>
yup
<sputterguy>
8 hour days?
<Sync>
more or less
<Sync>
it is not too bad but I'm still pretty cheap
<Sync>
I work as a industrial climber for larger windparks and as a tree climber in my free time
<Sync>
the latter scouting nests of endangered species to see if they were there or not
<Sync>
if not usually windmills get build there
<Sync>
and with investments of over 6M per project people do not care much
<sputterguy>
that's badass
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<Sync>
finally.
<Sync>
wtf.
<Sync>
how does that happen.
<Sync>
the stage 1 and 2 vanes are insanely stuck to the shaft
<azonenberg>
Sync: turbopump not playing nice?
<Sync>
no
<Sync>
one of my twostage rotaries
<Sync>
I bought it because it is a chemical resistant one with a membrane pump on the exhaust to condense out stuff
<Sync>
but it would not pump
<Sync>
I guess I need to get out the emery cloth
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<Flea86|away>
hi, anyone here have any experience using actel FPGAs?