<azonenberg>
So today I made some experimental microprobes
<azonenberg>
getting dimensions off the pics now
<azonenberg>
They're sharp, that much is obvious
<azonenberg>
Let's see - shank kis 406 microns / 233 pixels, which makes this image 1.742 microns per pixel
<azonenberg>
Middle part is 52 pixels, which is 90 um
<azonenberg>
Then in the high res image the middle is 90 um / 491 pix = 183 nm/pixel
<azonenberg>
And the tip is somewhere under 13 pixels (2.3 um) across
<azonenberg>
The image was a bit blurred though
<azonenberg>
so it might even be sharper
<B0101>
Oh
<azonenberg>
In any case it's most definitely sharp enough to hit anything i can make on this process, with room to spare
<B0101>
Ok
<B0101>
going back... RRF stands for the first letter of my brother's friends
<azonenberg>
Ah, i see
<azonenberg>
So the bunch of you are your own little hackerspace?
<B0101>
nope. used to be good friends... but because of an argument... we broke off
<B0101>
RRF = Rusydi, Royce, Feng Qiang
<azonenberg>
Ah
<B0101>
I only joined in last year
<B0101>
They liked doing software
<azonenberg>
And you started pushing toward hardware?
<B0101>
It was Royce who started pushing towards hardware
<B0101>
I only joined to help out with my brother
<azonenberg>
i see
<B0101>
If you look at my logo, you might notice a zero detect circuit
<azonenberg>
I just see five test points
<B0101>
Did you see that if you go down the test points, you will see 4 lines?
<azonenberg>
Yeah
<B0101>
thats the zero detect circuit
<azonenberg>
But i see no interconnection
<B0101>
my logo was based on a portion of my brothers 4 bit relay computer
<azonenberg>
oh, i see
<B0101>
it was a very small portion of the whole circuit
<azonenberg>
I figured as much
<B0101>
do you know VHDL?
<azonenberg>
B0101: Not yet, i've been studying verilog though
<berndj>
VHDL reminds me too much of cobol
<berndj>
OR SIGNAL TO B GIVING B
<azonenberg>
Lol, to me it looks like Ada
<berndj>
azonenberg, does glade come with a simulator?
<azonenberg>
berndj: It's a pure low-level layout tool
<berndj>
(i know neither ada nor cobol, really, i'll take your word for it)
<azonenberg>
Extraction is done via python scripts (they have an example script for a hypothetical 150nm process)
<berndj>
any other layout tools you've tried?
<azonenberg>
LayoutEditor but it sucks
<B0101>
berndj: I tried programming in COBOL before... I can only say something
<berndj>
i've tried half a handful and so far is the one that sucks least
<azonenberg>
so far glade is?
<azonenberg>
Yeah, it has some segfaults but is otherwise pretty decent
<berndj>
*and so far magic is
<azonenberg>
Oh, magic
<B0101>
berndj: Its a SIN to teach COBOL
<berndj>
i don't mean to sound like i'm pushing it
<berndj>
B0101, not so long ago i knew a guy who was taking a cobol course
<azonenberg>
No, i want inputs from a lot of people
<azonenberg>
Preferably people who have tried >1 tool
<azonenberg>
and can provide a reasonable argumetn as to why one is better than the other for a given purpose
<berndj>
i've "tried" >1, but for a loose definition of "tried"
<azonenberg>
Asking people in industry will get you nowhere because most of them are using cadence or synopsys
<azonenberg>
which are nice but insanely expensive
<berndj>
mostly, it was, "started the program and couldn't figure out wtf to do then gave up"
<azonenberg>
Lol yeah
<berndj>
which was the case with electric and that french thing whose name i forget
<azonenberg>
glade is the only one i found intuitive enough to actually use
<azonenberg>
alliance? Its a pain
<berndj>
yes, alliance
<berndj>
looked potentially very pretty, but it gave me the same emotional experience vi did when i first met it
<berndj>
(i've since made friends with vi)
<azonenberg>
lol
<berndj>
magic is kinda old-school; the gui is more like a convenience, rather than the primary interface
<azonenberg>
yeah
<azonenberg>
Glade looks like it could be a really nice tool
<azonenberg>
If only it didnt segfault so much :P
<berndj>
it's very strongly focused on its command line, but of course there are sensible gui action mappings
<berndj>
oh, glade is free as in beer but not speech?  that'd be why i never saw it / checked it out
<azonenberg>
berndj: Yes
<azonenberg>
Source would be nice
<azonenberg>
But its a step in the right direction compared to, say, synopsys
<wolfspraul>
azonenberg: have you heard about the Fedora Electronics Lab Chitlesh Goorah was maintaining for a while?
<wolfspraul>
the goal of that project was to bring together good IC design related free software
<wolfspraul>
he has slowed down a bit since early this year, but the project is still out there
<wolfspraul>
oh right, he calls it 'Free Electronics Lab' now because he is moving away from Fedora dependence and wants to also support RedHat Linux I think
<wolfspraul>
I was planning to write a little eulogy on your beautiful pictures soon
<wolfspraul>
so I haven't seen the 06-22 ones yet, but I really do like the series
<azonenberg>
wolfspraul: Eulogy? Like a funeral speech?
<azonenberg>
:p
<wolfspraul>
I downloaded them all with wget -r :-)
<wolfspraul>
ah sorry wrong word probably :-)
<wolfspraul>
not a native speaker
<azonenberg>
I figured as much
<wolfspraul>
"eulogy is a speech or writing in praise of a person or thing, especially one recently deceased or retired"
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I meant the first part...
<azonenberg>
I see
<wolfspraul>
no but seriously those pics are awesome
<azonenberg>
well, any analysis or constructive criticism is welcome
<wolfspraul>
I like to open up a process and make it interesting for people to peek into your lab
<azonenberg>
You have my lab notes, you have the photos
<azonenberg>
the more interesting you can make it sound, the better
<azonenberg>
more people interested = more people providing suggestions and maybe running experiments too
<wolfspraul>
I only have a small audience of maybe a few hundred people that really listen to me, but I will try to get my amazement at your work across to them...
<azonenberg>
no worries
<azonenberg>
Just dont expect the awesome to stop any time soon lol
<azonenberg>
I'll be popping these probes and some previous dies under a SEM in the near future to get some close-ups
<azonenberg>
and hopefully help diagnose my hardmask troubles a little better
<azonenberg>
hi R0b0t1
<R0b0t1>
Hello.
<R0b0t1>
I now idle here :3
<R0b0t1>
I'd be happy to join in, but it would seem I first need a microscope (and some money for wafers).
<azonenberg>
As of now i'm the only one doing fab, though B0101 plans to start up a lab soon
<azonenberg>
The rest are just providing useful suggestions
<azonenberg>
I hope that will change eventually, we're trying to get more people involved
<azonenberg>
lekernel: That one was showing the last few problems with my exposure system
<azonenberg>
Notice the uneven lighting
<azonenberg>
I think i will need a double exposure to get something etchable out of that
<azonenberg>
But it's pretty close
<azonenberg>
The issue i am having now is getting good yields with the hardmask
<azonenberg>
Wet etching fails due to HF permeating my photoresist (longer hardbake may help there so I am not giving up entirely, I may also want to try another resist)
<azonenberg>
And liftoff is proving difficult to get good yield with
<azonenberg>
Partly because the solvent in the hardmask solution slowly attacks photoresist and therefore needs to be coated very quickly to prevent damage
<bart416>
azonenberg,
<bart416>
<leeeeee> Google translated page direct link .. http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbomba-de-difusion-en-acero-inoxidable%26hl%3Den%26ie%3DUTF-8%26prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=es&u=http://sites.google.com/site/skygaps/vacio/bomba-de-difusion-en-acero-inoxidable&usg=ALkJrhgSsKU-BZat30dCZq4YsnMl0XrtrQ
<bart416>
^just in ##electronics
<azonenberg>
I'd be using high vacuum oil, not mercury
<azonenberg>
But it looks quite interesting
<R0b0t1>
J/w does ##electronics have some odd flags set on it? I can rarely ever join, although that might (for some reason) partially be my client.
<azonenberg>
You have to be identified with nickserv before joining
<R0b0t1>
Yeah... I finally got in. Dunno what's up *shrug*