ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: a _better_ cult
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: haha i believe you that you did but when
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: told you you were hot in that pic
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: also tinder cofounder just favd your tweet
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: when you were trying to decide which courses to take
<alexgordon>
maths is the most useful thing you can learn at university
<alexgordon>
because of the way it changes your brain to think in terms of proofs and highly abstract concepts
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil: oh, holy shit, Jon is the cofounder of Tinder?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
shocked.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah, hot, sure, *to gay guys*.
<alexgordon>
jonbad?
<alexgordon>
he's on irc
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: is he on irc? omg
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not right now, apparently
<alexgordon>
yeah he's a busy guy :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
no girls. none. and I'm so, not, ready, to hook up with a guy, off of tinder.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: what makes humans different from animals, apart from our desire to vigorously mate every day of the year, is our ability to "think ahead" - play out a scenario in our mind then decide whether or not to take the first step. Invariably "thinking ahead" is equivalent to success in life (success is either that or luck) and mathematics is the subject that cultivates it the most
<alexgordon>
you can learn art history through reading books. you can't learn how to prove things by reading books, writing proofs is a skill that requires a time investment only found at the beginning of your life :P
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: is not "hot to gay girls" the same as "hot to women"?
<alexgordon>
erm
<alexgordon>
gay GUYS
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
apparently. >,>
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've not been this whiny about relationshippy stuff, for a while.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's been hard to watch my ex go get laid off of Tinder, easily.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
We specifically broke up to do shit like this, and … I've failed. And that makes the whole exercise feel like a mistake. *Unbelievably* depressing.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: maybe it's where you live?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
how so?
<alexgordon>
I dunno, some places are easier than others. didn't you just move?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not ‘just’; lease is actually coming up for renewal next month or so
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and have been “mostly” here for probably a year and a half or two
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: right but you had a girlfriend for the first half of that right?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
open, yes.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm not really depressed about the dating-scene or anything.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I can/could get laid. Hell, I ‘got laid first.’
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's about getting laid *easily*.
<alexgordon>
well I can't help you there :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Most of the guys I see around, who *aren't* huge lonely geeks, get laid basically on-demand. Most of them aren't really that attractive; most of them aren't really that nice, most of them aren't that funny.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm egotistical enough to believe myself on any of their (collective) levels.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
And yet, they have something I simply don't: game.
<alexgordon>
oh god
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
You have to know what to say, know how to make the move, know *when* to make the move. All things I'm completely incapable at.
<vigs>
My CPU is finished. My final project is finished (ALL the Assembly!). Just got a two page paper, a five page paper, and one last project, and I'll be done with all my classes. Then Finals \o/
<vigs>
hi, all
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you're overthinking
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
People fall *in love* with me, easily. It's great, and all. Six months from now, I'll be back to being happy, and probably have somebody new and exciting in my life …
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: that's what they have that you don't: a smaller brain
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… it's just that I'd really like to take a break from being a serial monogamist, and learn how to be slutty. And so far, I'm failing terribly.
<vigs>
same
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I'm beginning to think the problem is not where you live :P
<alexgordon>
just... stop thinking, you know?
<alexgordon>
be more alexgordon
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yeah, no idea why you thought it was where I live :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-what
<purr>
<alexgordon> joelteon: you might be high, but you're not THAT high
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I dunno, I figured if you hadn't changed, then it must be your environment that's changed
<alexgordon>
but apparently you have changed
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
me? changed? wat?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
last three years, I've definitely gotten laid, been happy (at least in this field), been desired enough, … all very fulfilling etc etc etc.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that's still the case. still have lots of good sex.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
just not, good sex that makes me feel ‘equal’ to the average male I know.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I very much feel inferior, for needing to talk to a girl I like for three weeks, and get to the point where she ‘likes’ me, before it develops into anything sexual;
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
all the while, watching her bang guy after guy on Tinder, the night they meet.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
been through this several times in the last few months, while trying to learn how to be one of *all those other guys*, who clearly have some game, while I clearly do not. :P
<joelteon>
what
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yeah but it's not about "what you say and when to make the move", it's not about "having game"
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh? really?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
again, that's been my impression; but I'm still learning to be a slut. :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I do hope you saw my tweet-stream, by the way. That was THE BEST THING. I died so much.
<alexgordon>
just be ELLIOTTCABLE, the crazy guy that's confident in himself
<alexgordon>
and don't look like you're homeless
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: there are lots of guys who do have problems with this stuff, but I never thought of you as being one of them.
<alexgordon>
you have a freaking IRC channel named after you, and what's more, people actually go there
<katlogic>
That might be the part of problem actually
<alexgordon>
heh
<katlogic>
ELLIOTTCABLE: That was one retarded contest, did same stupid mistake when in my teens.
<katlogic>
Such contests are ultimately unfair given how each gender approach sex.
<alexgordon>
what contest? what?
<katlogic>
Leveled playing field would be: her catching a guy with enough fuck-you money who actually loves her beyond mere trophy wife
<katlogic>
and as for you, getting a 8/10 who is not a complete bimbo
<katlogic>
alexgordon: Breaking in up in one-upping argument who'd get laid faster.
<alexgordon>
oh
* katlogic
cautiously installs tinder
<alexgordon>
katlogic: it depends a lot on age
<katlogic>
damn, nearest in UK
<alexgordon>
haha
<alexgordon>
katlogic: e.g. 18 year old girls aren't looking for marriage partners, as long as they don't get preggers they're OK
<katlogic>
alexgordon: I've lost faith in the age rule
<alexgordon>
once they get to mid twenties they have to be more picky, because any relationship could potentially be a relationship for life
<katlogic>
Trouble is, a lot of girls even in their late 20s dont look for marriage
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<katlogic>
And when in their mid-30s they often snap and knocked up by some random douche
<katlogic>
*get knocked
<alexgordon>
right
<katlogic>
Naturally never marry and raise the kid alone, get a stepfather dude if they're *really* lucky
<katlogic>
Unfortunately dudes are as much self-entitlent as those women, so they're usually not interested in dating women with kids
<katlogic>
Unless they're total losers like me, whos 2 previous exes were moms since its the cheapest dating material looking good.
<alexgordon>
men DO have two advantages in this game, in that A) they generally date younger and have no clock - I don't intend to get married until I'm at least 35 :P, B) they decide whether to propose or not
<katlogic>
alexgordon: I'd sum it up as too much choice is too bad for customer to make a decision.
<alexgordon>
ha
<katlogic>
Applies in bussiness as well in relationships.
<katlogic>
Now that this Tinder cancer spread the facebook cancer even further, people will hopefully realize this sooner.
<katlogic>
(Too much choice invokes innate nirvana complex in many folks...)
<katlogic>
arr, nirvana fallacy
<katlogic>
apparently nirvana complex is just dying of heroin overdose according to the internet
<katlogic>
alexgordon: What is more scare is the amount of people who dont marry at all
<katlogic>
either dont want kids, or hopeless foreveralones
<katlogic>
*scary
<alexgordon>
I guess, but those people always existed throughout history
<katlogic>
Yeah, projections are that in 200 years or so population will drop to 2 billion or so
<alexgordon>
the problem is really that people are living longer but not ageing slower
<katlogic>
not because of wars or scarcity of resources, but because our brains are tricked somehow that we're overcrowding
<alexgordon>
well we ARE overcrowding :P
<katlogic>
Not in developed world.
<alexgordon>
ehh
<katlogic>
That projection is optimistic one, that inequalities will eventually even out.
<katlogic>
India and africa mostly.
<alexgordon>
china is producing so much pollution that it's detectible in air quality in california
<katlogic>
Well, yeah those things will have to be dealt with sooner or later.
<alexgordon>
the reason china is producing so much pollution is that there's too may people on earth :P
<katlogic>
I suspect that now US acknowledged there is probably some sort of problem, oil lobby will die out in few decades
<katlogic>
replaced by EV lobby instead
<katlogic>
and then coerce china with carbon import taxes
<alexgordon>
it's not really reasonable to say that people in the developing world can't have the same quality of life as people in the developed world, nor is it reasonable to say that people in the developed world should live with less
<alexgordon>
so the only solution is to have fewer people
<katlogic>
alexgordon: It's just empirical fact, modern middle class = less than 2 kids per couple
<alexgordon>
sure
<alexgordon>
we're a long way from that though
<katlogic>
Still its funny in the grand scheme of things. People rant all the time how poor people are disadvantaged and underprivileged.
<katlogic>
But nature itself somehow fixes this. Rich bastards simply always die out.
<alexgordon>
I actually don't believe that anyway, about poor people
<alexgordon>
e.g. bhutan. On paper it's poor as hell, but what I wouldn't give to live there for a while
<alexgordon>
on the flip side, I have no desire to live in singapore despite it being one of the richest countries on earth
<katlogic>
Well asia is sorta weird place
<katlogic>
Usually intact farmer communities like you mentioned are quite lovely
<katlogic>
Poor but quite self-sufficient, landlocked little worlds
<katlogic>
Unfortunately somtimes capital, or some retard dictator takes it by the storm
<katlogic>
ie nepal is not particularly nice place
<joelteon>
hi, i'm here
<alexgordon>
joelteon: yo
<joelteon>
are you guys talking about DATING???????????
<alexgordon>
joelteon: yes
<alexgordon>
joelteon: specifically, ELLIOTTCABLE's inability to get laid
<alexgordon>
because he's a nuck
<joelteon>
poor ELLIOTTCABLE
<alexgordon>
-nuck
<purr>
alexgordon: shut up nuck you are a nuck
<nuck>
ELLIOTTCABLE is not a nuck
<nuck>
That's an insult to nucks everywhere
<alexgordon>
joelteon: somehow it transitioned to a discussion on overpopulation, lol
<purr>
lol
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: IRL, I was like, “well they *were* talking about my dating life … and somehow it transitioned into overpopulation and genocide.”
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
IRL sed: “doesn't sound like that big of a transition"
<joelteon>
sed? that's a handy program
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<purr\GH>
System/Master 7d6ace9 ELLIOTTCABLE: (new) Adding the first Windows stuff!...
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<whitequark>
wheee, german
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<whitequark>
learning natural languages from scratch isn't fundamentally different or more complicated than learning programming languages from scratch
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
disagree 100%.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
well, 50%. just the first half.
<whitequark>
do you know something except English?
<katlogic>
I'd prefer C++ to mandarin any day.
<katlogic>
But indeed english is trivial, can be pickud in a year or so with concentrated effort.
<whitequark>
katlogic: I wouldn't be so sure about that
<whitequark>
(the C++ part)
<katlogic>
whitequark: mandarin is _hard_
<katlogic>
Especially if you mean writing
<whitequark>
C++ is _hard_ and _fucking useless_ and _painful as hell_
<katlogic>
Hey, thats mandarin for ya :>
<whitequark>
fairly sure that if I knew mandarin, I could get some good bucks mediating production in China and whatnot
<whitequark>
especially if my lexicon would be heavily technical
<whitequark>
and unlike C++, that wouldn't involve reading some shit written on a 5AM meth-fueled binge of some dumbass who left the company a year ago
<whitequark>
and committees
<katlogic>
That was just for the sake of example, if one wants something as useless and hard as C++, um, lao?
<katlogic>
Or any similiar sino-tibetan madness
<whitequark>
sure
<whitequark>
though I'm not sure what did you intend to prove
<whitequark>
there's a spectrum in both cases
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh my god the eastern europeans are arguing with eachother
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cannot handle
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
whitequark: vaguely. I learned a lot of Spanish, but it's been long enough that I've forgotten most of what I knew. *shrug*
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: the eastern europeans are arguing about mandarin chinese
<katlogic>
whitequark: I'd dare to say that natural language lean towards the fucking impossible end
<whitequark>
that just moves the "armchair meter" to the whole new level
<whitequark>
katlogic: ELLIOTTCABLE: I can say just one thing
<katlogic>
Was IRC ever about anything else?
<whitequark>
learning English, for me, was easy. learning German now feels even easier.
<whitequark>
maybe I should really try Mandarin some day :]
<katlogic>
Yeah, you can pretty much learn german just by talking to one for few days.
<katlogic>
Especially if his english sucks.
<whitequark>
by "learn" I don't mean "be able to live in X-speaking country"
<katlogic>
Nah, code-switching/pidgin is actually how one learns foreign language without much concentrated effort.
<katlogic>
It is how some people learn the "fucking impossible" category of languages too.
<whitequark>
but more something like "be able to write an essay that would read better than that of a less-sophisticated native speaker (and all the "live in X-speaking country" parts too)"
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<whitequark>
whether you can communicate with someone using some horribly broken dialect of their language is entirely uninteresting to me
<whitequark>
you can communicate just as well using gestures or something.
<katlogic>
whitequark: Anyhow, though there are spectra, the innate skill required is ultimately pretty different. Spatial thinking and strong deduction abilities is pretty useless to learn natural languages.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
omfg i'm writing windows batch files
<whitequark>
Joseph Stalin in the world of Might and Magic. the title is "The Red Lord"
<alexgordon>
ooh language learning, my favourite subject
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: it really isn't
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: depending on language
<alexgordon>
and visa system
<whitequark>
... visa system?
<alexgordon>
even if I wanted to learn japanese, it would be extremely difficult to spend the requisite amount of time in japan to understand their culture and therefore language
<alexgordon>
but I could fly to poland tomorrow if I wanted to properly learn polish
<whitequark>
student visas?
<katlogic>
alexgordon: It's not just the time necessary. Though it may sound as urban legend, there is some inherent truth to saying they dont want BAKA GAIJIN speaking japanese
<katlogic>
alexgordon: because duh, yellow uberrace language superiority or something
<alexgordon>
I don't think the japanese are racist, merely xenophobic
<katlogic>
Yeah, they're equally racist to everyone non-japanese
<katlogic>
Though a bit more towards koreans and vietnamese
<katlogic>
But again, everyone hates vietnamese in asia
<alexgordon>
ha
<alexgordon>
for european languages you can learn them from home, but for really alien languages that's just impossible
<whitequark>
I wonder...
<alexgordon>
learning a language is like writing a compiler. First lexical (learning how to read, write, and pronounce words)
<alexgordon>
then syntactical (learning about all the function words in the grammar)
<alexgordon>
then semantic (learning the meanings of nouns, adjectives, etc)
<katlogic>
alexgordon: Not sure about that. There are certainly is this movement of japanophiles some of which are pretty good at it just by passive learning
<whitequark>
you could actually just start with abstract syntax
<katlogic>
apparently talking to japanese people over skype and subbing shitload of anime helps
<whitequark>
it's even a good idea to do so
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
how fuck i write batchfiles
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wtfwtfwtf
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
this is like learning all of linux from scratch
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I feel so COMPLETELY incompetent
<whitequark>
katlogic: or, you know, taking a language course
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I can't even figure out how to simply concatenate two files.
<alexgordon>
whitequark: it's kind of impossible if you can't read the writing system
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
like, I'm tempted to re-write all my scripts in JavaScript for cross-platform compatibility. >,>
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: that's what ocaml does
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
which is horrid, because JavaScript is anything but a scripting language.
<alexgordon>
katlogic: they probably seem good to us, but I doubt they seem that hot to japanese people
<whitequark>
alexgordon: umm, surely the writing system itself is not the problem
<alexgordon>
it can be
<alexgordon>
say you want to learn arabic
<katlogic>
alexgordon: Nah, they're almost always without exception horrible. It sounds funny to japanese as funny sounds engrish to us.
<alexgordon>
you can't learn arabic before you can read the arabic script
<whitequark>
I mean, I could see you failing to understand all the intricate cultural underpinnings
<whitequark>
but just learning the writing system isn't anything like impossible. just takes time
<whitequark>
and patience
<alexgordon>
yeah, I'm just saying - it's the first stage :P
<alexgordon>
also the writing system helps you decode spoken language
<katlogic>
Well, it applies only sometimes. Sure that arabic or hangul script helps immensely.
<alexgordon>
even for european languages
<alexgordon>
if you want to learn dutch, you need to learn the weird dutch pronunciation
<alexgordon>
it doesn't take so long in that case
<katlogic>
Can't really say that about chinese writing.
<alexgordon>
ehh if you can't read the script then it's _way_ harder
<alexgordon>
people say that spoken mandarin is easy, once you get the tones down
<alexgordon>
which may be true
<whitequark>
"once you get the tones down"
<katlogic>
alexgordon: Indeed, it's just that a lot of people have this talent to learn by ear.
<alexgordon>
but if you can't read dictionaries or books, it's harder
<alexgordon>
how do you learn all the vocab without being able to read it?
<katlogic>
Just by being 2-3 years there. They can speak pretty decent, but barely read at all.
<katlogic>
And writing is out of question.
<alexgordon>
children have a 24/7 minder who will teach them this shit :P
<whitequark>
it's like saying "parsing C++ is easy, once you solve halting problem"
<alexgordon>
only way you can learn spoken mandarin without learning the writing system is to marry a chinese person ;)
<alexgordon>
katlogic: if an accent is too thick it can be really hard work to listen to
<alexgordon>
you don't need to speak like a native speaker (it can actually be a bit uncanny valley when you hear american accents from people who have never been to america)
<alexgordon>
but you do need to be understandable
<alexgordon>
Native ---- uncanny valley ---- hot foreigner accent ---- o_o ---- I can't understand a word you're saying ---- Russian
<katlogic>
alexgordon: Yeah, thats somewhat problem for me. I tend to code-switch between fairly convincing american accent (tv learned phrases) and strong russian-like accent when I have no phrase memoized so I have to construct it.
<whitequark>
>Russian
<whitequark>
ಠ_ಠ
<alexgordon>
trololol :D
<purr>
trololol
<katlogic>
I mean, it's the problem for native speaking listener because once the consistency is lost, it's hard to tell what I'm actually trying to pronounce.
<katlogic>
whitequark: russia stronk?
<katlogic>
all slavic accents sound russian to foreigners, only we can tell each other apart :)
<whitequark>
-_-'
<alexgordon>
true dat
<whitequark>
the most authentic russian accent I ever heard was by some american guy
<alexgordon>
it's really the stresses that give it away. words can become completely unintelligible just because the stress was in the wrong place
<alexgordon>
well not _completely_ unintelligible, but weird enough that you have to spend 5 seconds figuring it out
<katlogic>
Just spend few days playing Metro 2033 to learn our east european english, yo
<alexgordon>
the way people go wrong is that they start with nouns
<alexgordon>
when they learn a language
<alexgordon>
nouns only provide context if they're actually used in a sentence
<alexgordon>
whereas if you start with function words (the, it, then, while, etc) - there's usually only a few hundred
<alexgordon>
learn 75% of those and suddenly you know half the words in each sentence
<alexgordon>
after that it's all downhill, because you can often work out the content words from context
<katlogic>
alexgordon: My experience is what as the site said, school was pretty useless (and I gave up first month in favor of german)
<alexgordon>
yep
<alexgordon>
we had french twice a week at school
<alexgordon>
complete waste of time
<alexgordon>
they should have done 20 minutes a day, every day
<katlogic>
Or just talk on IRC 5 hours a day, for a year or two. No need for any actual effort, just socialize.
<katlogic>
Problem will be the pronounciation later, I guess this probably goes for all languages learned mostly as a text :/
<whitequark>
or read a lot of software documentation
<whitequark>
pronunciation is easy to fix by watching all of House M.D., Scrubs and Game of Thrones in quick succession
<katlogic>
whitequark: Indeed, though I started with kids show first.
<katlogic>
Dexters lab, powerpuff girls that sort of thing
<katlogic>
Simple english for kids
<katlogic>
albeit american, but trivial
<katlogic>
As for hollywood tv, startrek, babylon 5, seinfeld? :)
<whitequark>
startrek is mindnumbingly boring
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<alexgordon>
whitequark :O
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<katlogic>
whitequark: TOS and TNG are bearable
<katlogic>
but anything pales in comparison with b5
<whitequark>
TOS is not, I watched it solely because it would be more mental effort to drop it than to just bore through it
<whitequark>
TNG is somewhat nicer, but after watching two seasons, I don't really feel motivated for third
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<alexgordon>
whitequark: they say that the first two seasons of TNG are the worst and it doesn't pick up until season 3
<alexgordon>
personally I'm a stargate guy, but I'll always have a place in my heart for picard <3
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