<devyn>
incomprehensibly: also, out of curiosity, when you were considering going without lambdas, how did you plan to do integration?
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<ec>
hi
<purr>
ec: hi!
<ec>
is incomprehensibly alive?
<ec>
devyn: “compilation?”
<joelteon>
TIME TO PLAY POKEMON SAPPHIRE
<ec>
I'm here. Is anyone else here?
<joelteon>
Nope I'm talking and away
<ec>
you suck
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<devyn>
ec: hi
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<ec>
hi devyn
<ec>
wanna minecraft or something? I'm boredlonely.
<ec>
man, no alex
<devyn>
ec: yeah, I guess
<devyn>
ec: what was your question?
<devyn>
"compilation?"
<devyn>
what do you mean?
<ec>
question? hm?
<ec>
the thing you linked. Something to do with tempus, I guess? you guys advancing that design?
<devyn>
yeah, I'm taking it over
<devyn>
I kind of like the idea of having something FRP-like but purely reactive, instead of having normal functions alongside functions that use Signals
<ec>
taking it over? :O
<ec>
man, I missed a lot
<devyn>
I hate how you have to `lift` regular functions to Signal functions in Elm for example
<ec>
no idea what ANY of that means.
<devyn>
haha
<devyn>
FRP is basically functional programming but with values that change over time, i.e. signals
<devyn>
ec: basically you can do things like display = rect(mouseX, mouseY, 25, 25) and mouseX and mouseY can change and then everything that depends on them changes as well
<ec>
I still don't understand functional programming.
<ec>
god damnit.
<ec>
life is passing me by.
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<devyn>
ec: honestly, I think you do, you just haven't quite realized that what it is is FP
<devyn>
I think you'd recognize it fairly easily
<ec>
I'm probably just depressed about everything right now.
<ec>
it's pretty rare that I feel inferior in terms of *programming*, though. When I'm down, that's usually my last line of defense.
<ec>
I wonder what happened in my life that that became “getting laid.”
<devyn>
you found love
<jesusabdullah>
hah
<devyn>
hmmm what was it
<devyn>
get along
<purr>
hah
<devyn>
↑ that
<ec>
LOL
<purr>
LOL
<ec>
-^ that
<ec>
I'm so burnt out on Minecraft. I *miss* caring about it, already. Now idk wat do with my time.
<ec>
I'm so bored. So, so bored.
<ec>
soooooo I'm just gonna go sit and watch TV
<ec>
bbl
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<devyn>
ec: did you see whitequark's language, by the way? heavily inspired by Ruby to the point where it really seems to feel like Ruby, but compiled, with low-level access, and some FP-inspired static typing stuff
<joelteon>
i wanna see how terrible it is to write
<devyn>
joelteon: haha
<devyn>
I haven't actually used it yet
<devyn>
apparently there's a prototype publicly available that should resemble the production quality version he's working on now
<devyn>
or at least that's what I got from it
<devyn>
it's called Foundry
<devyn>
joelteon: what I'm really excited about though is that the objects are message passing based, just like Ruby, which means it *really should* feel just like Ruby
<devyn>
joelteon: i.e. things like Markaby would be entirely possible
<joelteon>
what's that
<devyn>
joelteon: html { head { title "blah" }; body { div(:class => "b") { p "alskdlak" } } }
<devyn>
joelteon: implemented using method_missing
<joelteon>
oh
<joelteon>
neat
<devyn>
also mechanisms like that for network protocols
<devyn>
see DRuby
<devyn>
where you can serve up an object from one program over TCP and then in another program connect to it and use it as if it were a local object
<joelteon>
cool
<devyn>
like even if you serve up the number 1 and connect to it, you can n + 3 and it should be entirely seamless
<devyn>
DRb does that currently
<devyn>
there's no reason Foundry couldn't do that too, because it has method_missing
<devyn>
as far as I've seen, it's just like the best bits of Ruby, Haskell and C mixed together
<devyn>
well, whitequark uses OCaml, not Haskell, but pretty similar in this context
<ec>
devyn: yes, saw
<ec>
devyn: it's definitely interesting, but in no way interesting *to me*
<ec>
devyn: it's literally the *complete opposite* of anything I care about
<ec>
although I've been recommending it to everyone recently
<ec>
I like slow, but *innovative,* built for improving the *top* of the stack (web's the only thing that matters right now.) Optimizations and academic-genius are things that, while excellent and something I fully support, are definitely not something that gets me hard and horny.
<ec>
Foundry's *full* of optimization, *academic* genius, and it's all about being fast at the bottom of the stack … and there's basically no *linguistic* innovation that I've seen from my cursory look. It's nothing *new*, just something better. Which is cool, but Not Me™.
<devyn>
heh
<whitequark>
I would even agree and support your stance, except for the bit where (web's the only thing that matters right now.)
* ec
nods
<ec>
I understand other points of view. It's a really, really radical statement.
<ec>
I have my reasons, though.
<devyn>
I love the web but I can't say I really care about it all that much
<ec>
Less borne of optimism, and more of practicality. /=
<whitequark>
it doesn't surprise me that you're caught in this echochamber too; it's really common
<whitequark>
but sad.
<ec>
There's a lot that's terrible and ugly about the web. But it *is*, and it's sort of … longevetic. It's got an appeal to people, and a lasting power that even computers themselves don't have.
<devyn>
of course
<ec>
Long after the UI we expect of “computers” (or even that we're learning now, for tablets) is dead and buried, the web'll still just be the goddamn web, IMO.
<devyn>
but it doesn't really excite me when the web platform gets new stuff that it always should have had in the first place
<ec>
In fact, I'd say long after the *form factor* we expect of computers, or phones, or tablets, dies … we'll still be inevitably writing HTML fragments and pushing shit over HTTP to search-engines of some form. /=
<whitequark>
dude
<whitequark>
debian still has DECnet
<whitequark>
and someone uses it.
<whitequark>
technology doesn't die.
<ec>
oh, I don't mean it'll survive in the fashion of tech that never dies
<ec>
but rather in the fashion of tech that continues to rule.
<whitequark>
I'm not really sure if tech ever rules
<whitequark>
the underlying social causes do, sure
<ec>
I just think “the web” has hit a technological sweet-spot. hard to express.
<ec>
anyway, shitty teevee is more important to me than this conversation
* ec
wanders off
<whitequark>
lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
oh I totally agree, but I think that efforts are better spent elsewhere, on more fun things that while you can't really just show them to the average person and expect them to cheer you on,
<devyn>
they're really exciting to work on
<whitequark>
that's the reason web is perceived as biggest thing ever: it's incredibly consumerist
<whitequark>
not in the derogatory sense, just in a factual one
<ec>
incredibly being the operative word
<ec>
it's incredible what it's done to take computers out of our hands, and put it in Theirs™,
<ec>
making us use PHP, and care about what the WhatWG says, and deal with browser incompatibilities
<devyn>
heh
<ec>
in the same fashion, the same hard-to-explain and hard-to-finger way, I feel, in my gut, that it'll *last* “incredibly” long.
<whitequark>
if you feel forced to use a technology, you may want to re-evaluate the decisions which led you to this situation
<whitequark>
last, sure; I don't really see what makes it so exceptional
<whitequark>
look around at communication mediums. they *last*.
<devyn>
what it does is exceptional, but that's all there is to it I think
<devyn>
it's not something worth getting hung up on
<devyn>
in fact I don't think it's what it does that's particularly exceptional
<devyn>
but what people do with it
<devyn>
but I don't crave longevity
<devyn>
if I have a good idea, even if it doesn't last long in its original form, it will probably have inspired other ideas
<devyn>
and essentially I will have made the world better, eventually,
<devyn>
by giving someone else a spark
<devyn>
even barring all that I just want to enjoy what I work on
<devyn>
and hope that maybe someone finds it useful
<devyn>
but that doesn't matter as much as just finding something interesting and perplexing to solve
<devyn>
I do web development all the time
<devyn>
it's basically my job now
<devyn>
but that's a chore; it's not really fun
<devyn>
I don't think you can make it fun because at the end of the day, afterall, it is "just" the web
<devyn>
after all*
<ec>
understandable, but disappointing, point of view
<ec>
I think more can be done with it. A lot more.
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<ec>
I just hit a new low.
<ec>
Googling “how to dance,” and then actually *watching* this video.
<whitequark>
ec: hm, I've just re-read the backlog
<whitequark>
and that left me wondering
* ec
eyebrows
<whitequark>
you're saying that Foundry is nothing new, and I couldn't agree more: I'm mainly rearranging parts which various clever people have derived for me, in novel and weird ways, but still rearranging
<whitequark>
what is it in Paws which is not rearranging well-known parts?
<ec>
yeah, we termed that “innovation in the vertical”
<ec>
as far as I know, most of it
<whitequark>
even if we leave all the "async-or-not" discussion away and just presume that yes, a VM where every call is a tail call is novel
<whitequark>
well
<ec>
I've had devyn or inimino point out several bits which are similar to features of *really* esoteric esolangs
<ec>
but it's mostly, AFAIK, pretty out-there
<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
note that my thoughts are based on your spec
* ec
nods
<ec>
there's very little new in there
<ec>
but.
<whitequark>
ohhh, I just realized
<ec>
mind's on life, not code/Paws/whatever
<whitequark>
I probably shouldn't have been reasoning about paws based on that spec
<ec>
someday )'=
<whitequark>
so you prolly should disregard everything I said in the last few days
<whitequark>
since it doesn't matter a little bit
<ec>
I don't think we even finished the reactor bullshit!
* whitequark
sighs
<whitequark>
screw reactor bullshit, it's boring
<whitequark>
bring on the fun parts.
<ec>
much less the cool parts that are fully designed
<ec>
… much less the cool parts that *aren't* set in stone )'=
<ec>
so much left to do
<ec>
so much not-caring
<whitequark>
if you bring on the fun parts I may just as well implement the base system for you in LLVM
<whitequark>
not promising but why not
* ec
laughs
<whitequark>
or, better
<ec>
talk to prophile and alex about that, both have offered similar
<whitequark>
on top of foundry!
<ec>
well, not exactly
<ec>
but I know there was a discussion of a compiler at one point
<ec>
idk the details …
<ec>
ugh I miss alex, I wish I could do some Paws spec-talk with him right now. those were good feeeeeeels bruh.
<whitequark>
what's up with him?
<ec>
whatcha mean?
<whitequark>
well
<ec>
I don't know, I've been away a couple months, is he not around?
<whitequark>
I see
<whitequark>
um he was here today
<ec>
coo, coo
<ec>
looking forward to working soon
<whitequark>
oh?
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<whitequark>
i think that haskell is rut
<whitequark>
because it has all the same concepts as all other languages but arranged in a math-y way
<whitequark>
boring.
<whitequark>
the more I learn about it the less exciting it is
<joelteon>
yeah, fuck all languages
<joelteon>
especially foundry
<whitequark>
yeah, fuck off
<whitequark>
devyn: ping
<whitequark>
it just occured to me that polytypes ("forall") and existential types ("forany") can be a category and a co-category
<whitequark>
don't have any practical application for that, just curious if I'm right.
<alexgordon>
JAIWODJAWIODJOIAWJDOIAWFIOAWFMOI
<joelteon>
sounds boring and mathy to me
<joelteon>
i only get 651KB/s here
<joelteon>
i wonder how fast of residential internet you can get in the US
<whitequark>
I can get 200 Mbit for $30 in Moscow
<whitequark>
eat that
<joelteon>
it's sour
<whitequark>
oh, it's bidirectional and no data caps
<alexgordon>
-_-
<alexgordon>
I can get 15Mbit
<alexgordon>
$30
<joelteon>
i don't know where to get internet
<joelteon>
none of these google results are helpful
<alexgordon>
why does london have shitty internet -_-
<whitequark>
alexgordon: it's old.
<joelteon>
ok you can get 200mbit from Midco
<whitequark>
alexgordon: see, all third world countries have really fast internet because they're built with recent infrastructure
<joelteon>
FiOS is the best provider around here, looks like
<whitequark>
(it makes no sense to build with old one, really)
<alexgordon>
whitequark: but there's lots of sewers they can put the cables down
<joelteon>
lol off the chart speeds
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
but yours is already in-place and needs costly upgrading
<whitequark>
oll
<joelteon>
disregard google fiber
<whitequark>
cables are cheap
<whitequark>
compared to endpoint stuff
<joelteon>
oh, neat
<joelteon>
verizon's availability checker is incapable of verifying addresses
<alexgordon>
whitequark: which endpoint?
<alexgordon>
I thought most of the expense was the last mile
<whitequark>
alexgordon: well
<joelteon>
i can get 18mbps for $45
<joelteon>
fucking kill me now
<whitequark>
fiber modulators can be like $10k for one
<alexgordon>
joelteon: and probably data caps too
<whitequark>
and that gives you what, one fiber?
<whitequark>
it's expensive as shit
<alexgordon>
but if they can manage it in moscow!
<joelteon>
do any addresses exist that are served by verizon?
<joelteon>
i've entered four
<joelteon>
you'd think they'd serve silicon valley
<alexgordon>
at this rate my iphone is going to get faster internet (4G) than my home
<joelteon>
yeah there's no fios cluster in sf
<joelteon>
ok
<joelteon>
cool
<joelteon>
kill me now
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<ec>
alexgordon: YES. YOU'RE ONLINE.
<alexgordon>
ec: I'm always online
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
except when I"m not
<ec>
no, you're not online when you're not
<ec>
so.
<ec>
Can I rope you into some Paws, today/
<ec>
I'm *so bored*. Egads.
<ec>
Burnt out on Minecraft, and now I've got fuckall to do up here in AK.
<alexgordon>
ec: shoot stuff
<ec>
I swear I'm spending 60% of my time sleeping.
<ec>
already did that :D
<alexgordon>
shoot snow deer
<ec>
terribly D:
<ec>
I used to be such a skilled shot with a handgun. Now, I'm atrocious.
<alexgordon>
or elks, whatever you call them
<ec>
… caribou?
<ec>
… moose?
<alexgordon>
moose
<alexgordon>
is what we call elk
<alexgordon>
I think
<ec>
not in season, afaik.
<alexgordon>
ec: you'll be right at home in britain, handguns are banned!
<ec>
ick.
<ec>
alexgordon: what's your time-schedule for the daaaaaaay
<ec>
alexgordon: I want to steal youuuuu
<alexgordon>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
well
<alexgordon>
it's not the day
<alexgordon>
it's the night
<ec>
oh. butts.
<ec>
I forgot. Alaska == FIVE *MORE* HOURS behind you.
<alexgordon>
yeah, time, bitch
<ec>
tomorrow? :D
<alexgordon>
it's only 11pm
<ec>
you're in +1, right?
<ec>
or is it -1?
<alexgordon>
UTC+1
<alexgordon>
because of DST
<ec>
Holy crap
<ec>
We're basically literally on opposite sides of the world
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<ec>
whitequark: yes, but you have to buy it off the mafia.
<ec>
whitequark: so, that's a bit of a trade-off there.
<ec>
;)
<alexgordon>
russia is such a funny country
<alexgordon>
it has character
<ec>
I was once informed that I'm going to spend all my money, when I get old, on buying a run-down castle in the middle of fucking nowhere Scotland, fixing it up, and running custom fibre straight to it
<ec>
sounds fairly accurate, actually.
<ec>
most people buy a sporty car, during their midlife crisis.
<ec>
I'll probably buy a satellite.
<alexgordon>
of course by then the population of scotland will be about 30 million
<alexgordon>
so it won't be in the middle of nowhere :P
<ec>
oh, i'll just exterminate them
<ec>
I don't need *people* there with me
<ec>
just a Costco.
<alexgordon>
what's a costco
<ec>
poor, poor londoners
<ec>
remember that time I explained what a “trash compactor” was?
<ec>
bit at the end is fairly accurate representation. ;)
<ec>
They're all acres in size, full of towering racks of palleted goods
<ec>
*all* sold is fairly ridiculous bulk
<ec>
in the U.S., there's “small-sized portions, medium-sized, large-sized, and Costco-sized.”
<alexgordon>
haha
<ec>
but it's all filthy-cheap.
<ec>
so the majority of families I know make a Costco run relatively rarely, buy everything in unfathomable bulk, and store it in their own garages until they need it.
<ec>
for instance, 36 rolls of paper-towels. Or forty Granny Smith apples. Or ten litres of liquid hand-soap.
<ec>
When I first moved in down in North Carolina, I made one Costco run; most of the non-perishable stuff literally lasted me the next two years.
<devyn>
whitequark: I suppose so, but yeah I don't really see why that would be useful
<ec>
mind you, I lived alone; it works out a lot more reasonably for families
<alexgordon>
ec: yeah, couldn't do that here
<alexgordon>
land is expensive
<devyn>
land is expensive here too and yet they still manage to have Costcos
<alexgordon>
it's more the storing stuff :P
<alexgordon>
ec: so apparently costco does exist in the UK, but you have to be a business to buy stuff from there
<alexgordon>
seems a bit strange, not sure why they would restrict it like that
<incomprehensibly>
ec:
<incomprehensibly>
ec: just went to my last church
<incomprehensibly>
moving out to college on thursday
<incomprehensibly>
alexgordon:
<alexgordon>
incomprehensibly!
<incomprehensibly>
alexgordon: !
<alexgordon>
ah apparently it's because of planning laws
<alexgordon>
though I thought supermarkets normally just bribe the local councils....
<alexgordon>
maybe they don't want to pay bribes
<incomprehensibly>
haha
<ec>
“You don't have devynci's permission to build here”
<ec>
omgggg
<ec>
my server is a thing and it works!
<ec>
incomprehensibly!
<ec>
incomprehensibly: #WINNING.
<incomprehensibly>
ec: yeah for real
<ec>
alexgordon: it's hugely for business over *here*, too
<incomprehensibly>
also ex girlfriend moved away to a different college 2 hours to the north yesterday
<ec>
alexgordon: but the United States is the United States, and business are basically people … so people are basically business, too
<alexgordon>
ec: haha
<incomprehensibly>
you know accelerando when the ais are businesses
<incomprehensibly>
so they are like people
<alexgordon>
sorry what?
<alexgordon>
you know accelerando
<incomprehensibly>
book by charles stross
<alexgordon>
no I don't know accelerando
<incomprehensibly>
accelerando
<incomprehensibly>
ec knows
<incomprehensibly>
ec: BREAKING BAD?!?!
<alexgordon>
oh PLEASE let us not get into metaphysics again
<incomprehensibly>
ec: HAVE YOU WATCHED IT
<incomprehensibly>
alexgordon: lololol it's a science fiction book
<purr>
lololol
<incomprehensibly>
not metaphysics
<ec>
yes, I've watched it
<ec>
it's good stuff, but not my favourite thing ever
<ec>
I think Battlestar Galactica, or the Song of Ice and Fire series, whatever it's called, I forget, have better acting, better writing, better cinematography …
<ec>
BB is definitely in my top ten. But not my top five.
<ec>
Accelerando is bee ess.
<ec>
I really, really dislike it. it's his least-engaging, least-good book, in every metric I care to measure.
<alexgordon>
bee ess? don't be rude, ec!
<incomprehensibly>
haha i thought you loved it
<incomprehensibly>
but yeah i'd agree, glasshouse is a much better read
<incomprehensibly>
accelerando is like pure ideas and no book
<incomprehensibly>
so i mean impressive in that way but yeah
<incomprehensibly>
haven't watched battlestar or got