<Nuck>
"hey, bitcoin's down near $200 right now; you should probably try to buy sometime soon" lol devyn u dum
<purr>
lol
<Nuck>
Now it's at $175
<alexgordon>
Nuck: it's not at anything
<Nuck>
alexgordon: what do you mean?
<alexgordon>
there was a major crash, everything is up shit creek ATM
<Nuck>
Yeah
<devyn>
Nuck: yeah, I meant 'soon'
<Nuck>
Which is why I'm watching it fall
<alexgordon>
but how do you know that's the actual price
<Nuck>
devyn: Soon is when it goes under $50 :D
<Nuck>
alexgordon: I don't care as long as it's what I get 1 BTC for
<devyn>
Nuck: it's rising again. so, no
<Nuck>
devyn: No it's wiggling
<Nuck>
I think it's gonna continue dropping
<Nuck>
If not now, then later
<devyn>
it rose from $140, that's for sure
<alexgordon>
Nuck: some orders went through as low as $33 at the time
<Nuck>
alexgordon: Well those people got lucky as hell man
<devyn>
lol
<alexgordon>
:P
<devyn>
wow
<Nuck>
Low right now is $105
<alexgordon>
yes...
<alexgordon>
those lows and highs aren't always accurate
<Nuck>
I know
<Nuck>
They display outliers :P
<devyn>
Nuck: I really don't think it'll go much lower than this though; people only let it go so low before they start buying again and that's exactly what's happening here — people are simultaneously buying and selling, leading to a near net zero change
<alexgordon>
I don't know how they calculate it, but it's not the absolute low and high price, but an approximation (which went out the window today)
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<Nuck>
devyn: $170 is barely a drop. It'll crash again and lower again.
<devyn>
last time was much lower
<devyn>
so, no, I don't think so
<alexgordon>
well if it's anything like last time...
<alexgordon>
slow and steady decline
<alexgordon>
but
<alexgordon>
might go up
<alexgordon>
who knows
<alexgordon>
don't speculate unless you have a proper plan :P
<Nuck>
I have a plan and that's when it goes the fuck down
<Nuck>
I'm patient.
<Nuck>
And I'm watching the graphs
<devyn>
lol
<alexgordon>
the prices are arbitrary anyway
<Nuck>
alexgordon: All prices are
<alexgordon>
no
<alexgordon>
well yes
<devyn>
it's not going to go way the fuck down long enough for you to actually get all that much
<Nuck>
Yes, that's the fact of currency with no backing, etc.
<alexgordon>
but these are especially arbitrary since bitcoin is not based IN anything
<alexgordon>
bitcoins are just numbers
<alexgordon>
completely worthless
<alexgordon>
how can you say one number is worth more than another
<Nuck>
devyn: I don't want all that much, I just want to get $30 worth when it bottoms out
<Nuck>
And let me say this is *not* bottoming out
<devyn>
alexgordon: because there's a certain number of bitcoins in circulation, therefore scarcity etc.
<Nuck>
I've studied too many commodity markets to think this is bottom
<alexgordon>
devyn: let me show you something
<alexgordon>
I have a number
<alexgordon>
B9FC00E1-23E1-478D-875B-3BF404856882
<alexgordon>
it's one of a kind
<alexgordon>
or was
<alexgordon>
perfectly scarce
<alexgordon>
still just a fucking number
<Nuck>
alexgordon: That number exists in pi faggot
<alexgordon>
:P
<devyn>
the point is that the more people buy, the less there is in supply meaning that more is charged
<devyn>
more people sell, more there is in supply, less is charged
<alexgordon>
devyn: yes but you still have to decide what a single bitcoin is worth
<devyn>
is it still just a number? sure, but it's valued due to people giving value to it
<alexgordon>
or not worth, but what it's price should be
<alexgordon>
and it's arbitrary
<devyn>
of course it is, but that doesn't mean there isn't a certain range of acceptable values to people
<devyn>
at any given moment
<alexgordon>
oh well sure, but it's generally something like "any of the previous prices, plus a bit more"
<alexgordon>
the market WILL come up with A number for how much a bitcoin is. That doesn't mean the number has any meaning to it
<Nuck>
alexgordon: The same can be said about USD, etc.
<Nuck>
Money has no value besides that which we ascribe to it.
<Nuck>
And exchange rates always float based on the market
<Nuck>
BTC is just like USD, etc.
<alexgordon>
Nuck: USD is backed by a large military and police force
<alexgordon>
BTC has some geeks
<Nuck>
No, that's false
<Nuck>
USD is backed by a market that has faith
<Nuck>
(and don't give me that shit that nobody has faith in USD cause that's BULLSHIT)
<Nuck>
Even if we have a good military, our currency can be worthless
<alexgordon>
yes that, but the government has the power to remove any competitors
<alexgordon>
so
<Nuck>
No, they don't.
<Nuck>
They have the "power"
<Nuck>
But they cannot use that power
<alexgordon>
why not
<Nuck>
Because there would be an uproar and they would be facing riots.
<alexgordon>
heh
<Nuck>
The government has very little role in money (besides setting interest rates) nowadays
<alexgordon>
if they can get away with killing and torturing for many years, they can get away with anything
<Nuck>
The organization that prints money is quite separate (despite having a similar name, which leads to many libertarians confusing it)
<Nuck>
Anyways, BTC has a large market backing it now
<Nuck>
So BTC has value
<alexgordon>
I guess
<Nuck>
However, I view BTC as a commodity market
<Nuck>
It's shuffling slowly downward, BTW
<alexgordon>
look, I ultimately believe that BTC will prevail because it's actually damn useful
<Nuck>
I think BTC is the dumbest idea ever, alexgordon
<alexgordon>
but it's still meaningless numbers, like all money
<Nuck>
HOWEVER
<Nuck>
alexgordon: Yes, but that's the thing — money doesn't *need* value
<Nuck>
Because there is no such thing as value
<Nuck>
value does not exist, it is only an artificial creation of humankind
<alexgordon>
why do you think BTC is the dumbest idea ever?
<Nuck>
It's a currency designed with the idea that deflation is inherently bad
<alexgordon>
huh?
<Nuck>
Read some of the articles from the creator — he specifically designed BTC to be inflationary
<alexgordon>
and yet it has massive deflation designed into it?
<alexgordon>
but it's *not*
<alexgordon>
it's deflationary
<Nuck>
No it's inflationary
<alexgordon>
how so
<Nuck>
Sorry, I had that backwards
<Nuck>
Yeah you were right
<Nuck>
I meant the opposite
<alexgordon>
maybe
<Nuck>
so %s/inflationary/deflationary/ and %s/deflationary/inflationary/
<Nuck>
inflation is not bad
<alexgordon>
deflation is bad for economies, it's not bad for individuals though...
<Nuck>
It's like the anti-keynesian currency
<alexgordon>
I'm not sure if bitcoin will ultimately be good for society
<alexgordon>
that remains to be seen
<alexgordon>
It'll probably be good for *me* though
<Nuck>
Which is fucking dumb, because despite what some of the dumber economists claim, Keynesian economics is still good
<Nuck>
And yes, deflation is good for us
<Nuck>
Which is why I'm using it as an investment ;)
<alexgordon>
it's still useful as a currency though
<alexgordon>
it's extremely difficult to send money between countries
<Nuck>
If you view BTC as a commodity market, it's designed to go up for a long time before levelling out
<alexgordon>
when I bought chocolat's icon I had to wire money to some guy in russia... cost me £20 for the privilege
<Nuck>
haha yeah
<Nuck>
BTC is good as an international currency, I'll give it that
<Nuck>
The main reason it's so expensive to wire is because of the awful infrastructure though
<alexgordon>
it may end up making the world a more equal place, in that regard
<Nuck>
Since most banking systems are, of course, in COBOL
<alexgordon>
poor countries richer
<Nuck>
Eh I doubt it
<Nuck>
Those who get in early have a definite advantage
<alexgordon>
it's easy for me, a british citizen and resident, to start up an internet business right now. Harder for someone living in russia or china or (god forbid) africa...
<alexgordon>
no way to process payments, receive money, etc
<alexgordon>
without that, no business
<Nuck>
alexgordon: That's not because of currency problems; PayPal handles most of that these days.
<alexgordon>
paypal is not available in poorer countries
<alexgordon>
too risky
<Nuck>
Fair enough
<alexgordon>
also good luck paying a host :P
<Nuck>
But still, the biggest problem is the lack of internet and the fact that a computer is not easy to get there
<alexgordon>
yeah but that's changing
<Nuck>
Not really
<Nuck>
We, the first world, think it is changing
<Nuck>
But the reality is that we're just giving ourselves that illusion to make ourselves feel better
<Nuck>
It's not getting better.
<Nuck>
They have *phones*
<Nuck>
That is an improvement. Cheap androids have penetrated north Africa quite well, as well as Asia
<Nuck>
But they still lack real computers
<alexgordon>
that'll change though
<alexgordon>
where there's a market there's a way :P
<Nuck>
No, there isn't. The politics of south africa are too unstable to allow for that kind of market usage
<Nuck>
Europe really fucked south africa up, changing their borders and grouping tribes awkwardly
<Nuck>
It's mostly France and the Netherlands honestly
<Nuck>
But Britain isn't innocent
<Nuck>
You guys fucked that continent worse than we fucked the Native Americans
<alexgordon>
haha
<alexgordon>
well not me personally
<Nuck>
Well no. Maybe
<Nuck>
Dunno how many black people you've had sex with
<alexgordon>
none actually
<Nuck>
Really? You should try a black guy
<Nuck>
I hear they have big cocks.
<alexgordon>
there's surprisingly few black people in the UK
<alexgordon>
even in London...
<Nuck>
Really I find most @Homophobes are british black people
<alexgordon>
:P
<alexgordon>
only something like 3% of the population is black
<Nuck>
Anyways time to go kill some niggers
<Nuck>
By which I mean do double-fisted programming
<Nuck>
Right hand = Visual Studio
<Nuck>
Left hand = vim (rails work)
<alexgordon>
I... see... ?
<Nuck>
I'm doing two programming projects at once :D
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<elliottcable>
o7
<Nuck>
EVERYBODY STAY PERFECTLY STILL AND IT WILL JUST WALK AWAY
* Nuck
whistles innocently
<Nuck>
gqbrielle is trying to get me to poop on you elliottcable
<Nuck>
y/n
<elliottcable>
nope
<elliottcable>
you're too unattractive
<elliottcable>
find me somebody attractive, then sure
<elliottcable>
#thisalignswithmyfetishes
<elliottcable>
Looks like Bitcoin is on the way back up. Crazy.
<whitequark>
what the hell did this channel become
<whitequark>
is there a way to ignore not just Nuck, but all conversations which involve him?
<Nuck>
Well, it was always like this. Before me there was locks.
<Nuck>
haha I'm just saying what gqbrielle suggested
<elliottcable>
whitequark ⑊ /me grins
<elliottcable>
whitequark ⑊ Honestly, Nuck's easy to get along with. Give him some time, he'll grow on you.
<purr>
hah
<whitequark>
... is there a way to whitelist elliottcable alexgordon and maybe two or three people else?
<elliottcable>
whitequark ⑊ Yes. Ask me to ban everyone else.
<Nuck>
elliottcable: Oh not that again.
<elliottcable>
But honestly, I *enjoy* this channel having a little light-hearted trolling.
<elliottcable>
I feel like it's a great mix:
<Nuck>
Nah, mix wasn't that great
<Nuck>
It was just another gqbrielle alt
<elliottcable>
lol mix
<purr>
lol
<elliottcable>
that was when she decided she was male, right?
<whitequark>
elliottcable: I just feel like it's a lot of pretty damn heavy and uninspiring trolling lately.
<Nuck>
I don't even know, elliottcable
<whitequark>
not "let's tease each other a bit" but "let's shit on everything around and ourselves".
<Nuck>
Zhe's crazy.
<elliottcable>
whitequark ⑊ definitely.
<elliottcable>
whitequark ⑊ blame gqbrielle's presence, and locks' return
<elliottcable>
whitequark ⑊ it'll quiet down now that I've banned one of the two.
<Nuck>
Hey, I for one welcome our new locks overlord.
<whitequark>
locks or gq?
<Nuck>
gq
<elliottcable>
I banned gq. Locks has me ignored, so I'm not too worried about him.
<Nuck>
She's found a new home on Rizon, oddly
<Nuck>
She gets along far too well with them, it's actually scaring me
<elliottcable>
Without Gabrielle around, he'll be tamer. Nuck-level, hopefully, instead of Gq-level.
<Nuck>
gqbrielle-level involves rants
<Nuck>
Nuck-level involves trolls
<Nuck>
And anyways I've been spewing more of my filth on 4chan instead of here, so you should thank m00t.
* elliottcable
laughs
<elliottcable>
In unrelated news.
<Nuck>
elliottcable: Sell all your BTC for cheap, I want another downward spiral to happen
* elliottcable
tries to figure out his bitcoin transaction list
<elliottcable>
something's fishy here.
<Nuck>
I want that thing to go down to $30 again
<whitequark>
elliottcable: ow bmuch btc do you have?
<whitequark>
*how much
<Nuck>
Probably a lot; he's pretty rich.
<whitequark>
fuck my internet
<whitequark>
define "pretty rich" :)
<elliottcable>
Not a lot. Under 100, I'll tell you that much.
<Nuck>
100BTC
<elliottcable>
I'm enjoying the privacy-related aspects of Bitcoin too much to be more specific than that, right now.
<Nuck>
Is $10,000
<elliottcable>
Yes. I'm aware.
<Nuck>
Why the fuck do you have $10,000 in bitcoins alone
<elliottcable>
I didn't say I did.
<elliottcable>
I just said I had *less* than that.
<elliottcable>
i.e., a relatively trivial amount.
<whitequark>
elliottcable: kewl
<Nuck>
I'd consider 5 BTC a pretty big amount already
<elliottcable>
I was answering the indirect question, which I was *willing* to answer; not the direct one, that I'm not.
<Nuck>
Damn you and your vagueness
<elliottcable>
(That indirect one being “Did you lose your infamous fortunes in the crash yesterday?)
<whitequark>
elliottcable: haha, I didn't actually mean that
<Nuck>
Yeah, your, uh, "nazi money"
<elliottcable>
I bought a fair quantity at $US 77 : 1 BTC
<elliottcable>
and then a much, *much* larger quantity at $US 140 : 1 BTC
<Nuck>
elliottcable: You lucky fuck
<elliottcable>
then, sold much of that at $US 220 : 1 BTC
<Nuck>
I'll be buying when it stabilizes under $100
<elliottcable>
am planning on reinvesting that profit back into BTC either A) if it drops below 100:1,
<Nuck>
(or in 2 months, if it hasn't dropped yet)
<elliottcable>
or B) if it rises above 150:1
<Nuck>
It is above 150:
<elliottcable>
(the latter case assuming an apparently quick rise)
<Nuck>
It's at... 180:1?
<elliottcable>
it was ~140 last time I looked
<elliottcable>
well, shit, it's 163
<Nuck>
ooooh it's dropping again
<Nuck>
Looks like it's wiggling around at $160-180 right now
<Nuck>
But I don't think it's stabilized quite, I suspect a crash will come easily
<Nuck>
people will be a bit on-edge because of today's crash, so if it starts dropping tomorrow, we'll see more crash
<Nuck>
Weighted average is still decreasing too
<elliottcable>
Send me money. 1Ciwfg7H54j2xNMH1yiEX46RxvoqNPZC1m
<whitequark>
not used on the network yet
<Nuck>
Oooh that reminds me I should set up a BTC wallet if I'm gonna be doing some commodites trading in it
<elliottcable>
Some yC startup that's struggling hardcore.
<elliottcable>
They've owed me 10BTC for two weeks.
<whitequark>
elliottcable: +1 on blockchain.info, using that too
<elliottcable>
I've got some annoyances with it.
<whitequark>
elliottcable: sent you about a buck <3 <3 <3
<Nuck>
I've heard good things about blockchain
<elliottcable>
There's a couple functions on the site (shared-address generation, others) that make assumptions that seem to involve a “primary address”
<elliottcable>
and I can't change/set which of my addresses is that primary address, nor can I select another for a particular transaction
<elliottcable>
means I have to “archive” *all* of my addresses except one, preform the action so it's forced to assume that remaining one is my primary,
<elliottcable>
then unarchive all of them.
<elliottcable>
fucking weird.
<whitequark>
weird indeed
<whitequark>
mail them?
<elliottcable>
I might
<elliottcable>
this is an annoying clusterfuck
<elliottcable>
trying to retain privacy throughout this verification process
<elliottcable>
invoves using like, four seperate addresses
<Nuck>
elliottcable: What is the usual flow for a payment transaction
<elliottcable>
Okay.
<Nuck>
And is my idea of treating as commodities crazy
<elliottcable>
Look at the link I just made.
<Nuck>
Lookin' at it
<elliottcable>
I have an address (13Z…, the one on the left)
<elliottcable>
I previously transferred 1.00BTC to that address. That's the only transfer that's ever been made to that address. Therefore, that address “has” 1.00BTC in its wallet.
<elliottcable>
The linked transaction proceeds to “pay” 0.785…BTC to 1Ciw…
<elliottcable>
however, Bitcoin transactions have to consist of *whole inputs*.
<elliottcable>
That means, this transaction has to “use up” all of its inputs.
<Nuck>
So you transact the rest to yourself?
<Nuck>
What genius came up with *that* idea?
<elliottcable>
So, since there's only one input in the aforementioned 13Z address, and that transaction is of 1.00BTC, *this* transaction also has to be the same total as that output.
<elliottcable>
Thus, it has two outputs: one to transfer money to someone else, and the other to provide “change.”
<elliottcable>
It's a lot like bills:
<elliottcable>
I have a single 1.00BTC “bill.”
<elliottcable>
I can't tear that bill in half.
<elliottcable>
I have to give 1.00BTC to the transaction, and then I get a smaller denomination back in change.
<Nuck>
But a coin can be broken into change and then given in parts to others
<elliottcable>
The difference, of course, being that we have an infinite number of denominations.
<elliottcable>
Yes! Absolutely.
<elliottcable>
So, another example:
<elliottcable>
Let's say I bought 10BTC with my bank account. That'd mean I have one 10BTC bill in my account.
<Nuck>
So it doesn't have to be 1.00BTC per transaction, right?
<elliottcable>
not at all.
<elliottcable>
Then, whitequark gives me 0.005BTC as a gift.
<elliottcable>
Now, I have 10.005 BTC “in” the wallet,
<Nuck>
Okay, I assumed that from "transactions consist of whole inputs""
<elliottcable>
consisting of two previous transaction-inputs (“bills”), one in a 10.00 BTC denomination, and one in a 0.005 BTC denomination
* elliottcable
nods
<elliottcable>
okay.
<Nuck>
So can you explain what you meant by that?
<Nuck>
The monetary analogy isn't helping at all lol
<purr>
lol
<elliottcable>
Ick. I thought I'd made that all clear.
<elliottcable>
I have a wallet, with two bills in it.
<Nuck>
I thought it was just transferring decimals between wallets, basically
<elliottcable>
The bill the bank gave me, a 100$ bill,
<Nuck>
ahhhhh
<elliottcable>
and a 5$ bill that whitequark gave me for lunch.
<elliottcable>
I can't spend 25¢ out of my wallet.
<Nuck>
I see, so each transaction has to be subdivided
<elliottcable>
I don't *have* 25¢.
<Nuck>
You don't own the coins, you just own the transactions
<elliottcable>
If I want a water, I need to use a machine that's capable of taking a 5$ bill, and giving me back change.
<elliottcable>
Exactly!
<Nuck>
And then you can turn a transaction into more transactions
<elliottcable>
Ironically, there's no *bitcoins*, in Bitcoin.
<Nuck>
Okay, that makes sense
<elliottcable>
There's only transactions, of an infinite number of denominations.
* elliottcable
nods
<elliottcable>
Moving on.
<Nuck>
So what's the flow for, say, buying some child porn or weed or whatever they're using BTC for these days
<elliottcable>
let's say I want some acid.
<Nuck>
(the many uses of bitcoins lmao)
<elliottcable>
what the hell is a unit of acid?
<elliottcable>
okay. tabs of ecstasy.
<Nuck>
Acid comes in tabs too
<elliottcable>
10 tabs, for 2.5BTC
<Nuck>
As well as sheets (which contain multiple tabs)
<elliottcable>
so, a couple new important aspects, beyond that simple example of me transferring money around between my *own* accounts.
<elliottcable>
In this case, A), we're standing next to a fucking drug dealer, and want to Move Fast™
<elliottcable>
I don't want to sit around waiting for confirmations for an hour (we'll get to that in a second.)
<Nuck>
I know you generate an address per-transaction, right?
<elliottcable>
it's some skeevy shit.
<Nuck>
I understand the confirmation bits
<elliottcable>
also, B), he's not going to want us to know anything about him, so he's not going to give us his wallet's address,
<Nuck>
So you each generate a new wallet, yours initiates a transaction to his, and then from there it goes to him?
<elliottcable>
and finally C), we don't want Johnnie Law tracking us down in the (entirely public of necessity) blockchain, so we need to make sure this transaction, the mnoney that this drug-dealer will now have, isn't tracable back to us.
<Nuck>
Can't you theoretically trace *any* transaction in BTC back?
<elliottcable>
so. A) speed, B), anonymity, and C) privacy.
<elliottcable>
theoretically, yes. But there's many caveats to that.
<elliottcable>
Hence, ‘taint.’
<Nuck>
Ah, figures
<elliottcable>
First off, confirmations.
<elliottcable>
Miners mine blocks. I won't go into the specifics of that, but part of that process is *building* a “block” of transactions, out of all of the transactions that have recently been broadcast to the network.
<elliottcable>
then they do some cryptographic magic on it, waste a hell of a lot of joules of energy, and “boom” have a cryptographically-confirmed block that they then, themselves, broadcast.
<elliottcable>
that gets added to the blockchain.
<elliottcable>
When *your transaction*, the one that you initiated while standing next to the dealer on your respective smartphones,
<elliottcable>
is chosen by a miner for inclusion in a block, and he successfully “mines” that block (generates a valid crypto result, so he can add it to the blockchain,)
<elliottcable>
that's called “a confirmation.”
<elliottcable>
over “time”, a certain number of miners will choose to include your transaction in their blocks, and thus it will be “confirmed” multiple times.
<Nuck>
Who needs real dealers when there's Silkroad?
<Nuck>
:D
<elliottcable>
Obviously, a confirmation is spoofable: if you have A Friend™ mining, he can include a falsified transaction in some manner in his block, mine for a result, etceteras etceteras etceteras
<Nuck>
yeah
<elliottcable>
so, it's common courtesy(?) to assume transactions are “in progress” and incomplete until *that transaction* has reached ~6 confirmations
<elliottcable>
which means a relatively large diversity of miners from different mining-guilds, or standalone people, with no relation to you, have verified the transaction in whatever ways they do verifications (I'm not clear on the details of this, sorry),
<elliottcable>
and thus it's arguably definite.
<elliottcable>
now.
<Nuck>
Yeah, you'd require a majority etc. to override the pool
<elliottcable>
we're standing in a dangerous situation, and want this magical 6 to show up *faster*, so we can high-tail it out of the Southside.
<Nuck>
IDK I like that song
<elliottcable>
(and if you have a majority, for other reasons, you have complete control of the currency … google it)
<elliottcable>
so:
<elliottcable>
how do miners decide which transactions to include in their blocks for mining?
<elliottcable>
well, something I told you earlier is a bit of a lie:
<elliottcable>
the output of a transaction doesn't have to be exactly equal to all of the inputs.
<elliottcable>
it just has to be equal to, *or less than*.
<elliottcable>
If the outputs are less than the inputs, then the remainder (the “disappearing bitcoins”) go to *the miner who successfully mines a block including your transaction.*
<elliottcable>
that's called fees.
<Nuck>
So the higher the fee, the faster it's mined?
<Nuck>
iiiiinteresting
<elliottcable>
so, a transaction includes: the actual money transacted ... any change left over from the input (bill) chosen to spend ... and the fees provided to the miners to confirm your transaction.
<elliottcable>
basically, yes.
<elliottcable>
there's no linear relationship.
<elliottcable>
the client's defaut fees changes, but I believe it's currently 0.0005 / 1kb
<elliottcable>
(size, because it requires more effort to mine larger blocks; and a larger transaction takes up more space in a block.)
<Nuck>
1kb?
<elliottcable>
0.001 is considered a *very* high transaction fee, and will probably get your transaction a very high priority
<elliottcable>
i.e. confirmed in a couple of minutes
<elliottcable>
so.
<elliottcable>
we need our transaction to the dealer, of 2.5BTC, to also account for 0.001 for the miner.
<elliottcable>
because we want it to confirm quickly.
<Nuck>
Yeah
<elliottcable>
so, on to B), anonymity
<elliottcable>
we're going to talk as if we're the dealer now, we'll come back to the buyer in a moment.
<Nuck>
I've been told about wallet generation by devyn
<elliottcable>
amongst his many other security concerns, he doesn't want to provide an address which can be publically associated with his own self;
<Nuck>
Though I don't fully understand
<elliottcable>
so it's general practice (even for non-illegal things) to generate a new address for each transaction, where possible
<elliottcable>
The money came *into* that address from a shared-wallet service, which basically anonymizes your transactions by shuffling the money around through a large number of addresses, which themselves are *also* used for a large number of transactions
<Nuck>
ahhh
<Nuck>
So that's how you launder money in BTC?
<elliottcable>
Something like that.
<elliottcable>
Of course, you have to get the money *into* BTC first, and that's A Bitch™.
<Nuck>
Oh?
<elliottcable>
*Because* it's so easy to launder away the history once you're *in* BTC<
<Nuck>
What's so hard about getting stuff into BTC?
<elliottcable>
all of the $USD → BTC solutions are extremely regulated and verified.
<Nuck>
Ah
<elliottcable>
Try it, and you'll see.
<Nuck>
Well, I'm not doing big transactions
<Nuck>
So I'll probably have less to worry about than you
<elliottcable>
Stuff that uses a bank account for small amounts of money (useless for laundry) still requires all sorts of personal info ...)
<Nuck>
Oh I know
<Nuck>
I don't really care
<elliottcable>
and for large amounts of money, it often involves a verification process involving utility bills, passports and governmental I.D.s,
<elliottcable>
etcetetcetectec
<Nuck>
I'm not trying to hide anything
<elliottcable>
there's all sorts of federal regulations that impact this stuff
<Nuck>
And at most I'll probably put in $50
<elliottcable>
the easiest way to get money in, is to drop cash off in person
<elliottcable>
and of course that involves security cameras seeing you do so, and extensive records on the part of MoneyGram or whatever you use.
<elliottcable>
anyway.
<Nuck>
Well, like I said I'm not trying to be anonymous
<elliottcable>
so you can route any transactions through a series of shared wallets for 0.005% of the transaction.
<elliottcable>
it's a one-click thing inside your wallet, which is nice and convenient.
<elliottcable>
of course, that means Blockchain *themsleves* could, theoretically, have records of that fact.
<Nuck>
Yeah
<elliottcable>
It's best, if you truly have a good reason to be anonymous, that you do a lot of this by hand; and, to boot, using multiple services, from multiple locations.
<elliottcable>
Public library etcetcetc.
<elliottcable>
lots of proxies.
<elliottcable>
you get the idea.
<Nuck>
But if you're that paranoid, use multiple of these
<Nuck>
Also never use a public library
<Nuck>
Worst idea ever
<elliottcable>
best idea! Privacy screen over the monitor, USB-key one-off RAM OS or similar.
<elliottcable>
Plenty of information elsewhere on how to go about these things.
<Nuck>
Well, RAM OS yeah
<elliottcable>
Anyway, next up:
<Nuck>
elliottcable: Hidden Wiki's filled with these tips
<elliottcable>
Open your Blockchain, select Send Money > Custom
<elliottcable>
here's everything we just talked about: you select an address that has “unspent inputs” (so, a wallet with bills in it.), and an address to send money to.
<elliottcable>
You select a quantity to transfer, and the fees you wish to spend
<elliottcable>
then an address of yours to send the “change” to.
<elliottcable>
of import, you can select multiple addresses in the “from” list, with ⌘ and whatnot
<elliottcable>
meaning, for security, you don't have to keep *any* permenant addresses to store all your money in.
<elliottcable>
You can simply have one bill per transaction, and when the transaction is fully spent-up, you can discard it.
<elliottcable>
if you need to pay for something larger than any of the previous outputs provide for, you can command-select multiple addresses to pool as inputs for the transaction, and send the change to yet another address.
<Nuck>
Incidentally, BTC is down to $143
<Nuck>
mtgox isn't responding :S
<Nuck>
Anyways, I'm going to bed, if there's more you have to say, well, say it and I'llr ead in morning >_>
<elliottcable>
o7
<elliottcable>
nothing else to say I believe
<Nuck>
Actually
<Nuck>
Question
<Nuck>
How do you tie a transaction to a specific order?
<elliottcable>
Whatcha mean?
<elliottcable>
If I understand your question properly, you *don't*.
<elliottcable>
You, instead, tie a particular *receiving address* to a specific order.
<Nuck>
Ah
<elliottcable>
It's like knowing which bunch of bills at a grocery store went for a particular bundle of goods:
<elliottcable>
which teller, at exactly what time, received the bills
<elliottcable>
and thus which customer and which purchases they were handling at that time
<elliottcable>
except you can generate a new teller on demand for each customer.
<Nuck>
Well, I mean, in online transactions you generally attach the product to a specific transaction number for reference
<elliottcable>
You can still do that, if you like; but that's not something you'd sanely embed in the transaction data *itself*
<elliottcable>
You can, if you like. There's a field for notes.
<elliottcable>
But those notes are publically available, unencrypted, in the blockchain, *forever*.
<Nuck>
But I mean, how does the usual merchant flow work
<elliottcable>
I click “check-out,”
<Nuck>
Like, merchant shows throwaway address, user sends money, submits their throwaway address?
<elliottcable>
the website generates an address, and shows it to me; tells me I have 15 minutes to transfer <N> BTC to that address.
<elliottcable>
If it receives the money, and verifies enough confirmations, within 15 minutes ... the order is complete.
<Nuck>
Ahhh
<Nuck>
Okay that's simple enough
<elliottcable>
It never shows that address to any other user, so the purchaser need not submit their own address, or any other data
<elliottcable>
just send it
<Nuck>
Okay, that makes sense
<elliottcable>
also, QR codes are used very commonly
<elliottcable>
also-also, there's really cool *physical* bitcoins, if you desire one
<Nuck>
Yeah but that shit is kinda dumb since it's single use due to the transactional nature of bitcoin though, right?
<elliottcable>
whatcha mean?
<elliottcable>
The physical bills / coins that people are making are basically single-use wallets with a particular intentional denomination of unspent input
<Nuck>
Yes but it is not clear whether the wallet contains anything anymore
<Nuck>
Right?
<elliottcable>
they have the private key to that wallet embedded physically in them, somehow. You destroy the one-use coin to access the private key, and then thus spend that money.
<elliottcable>
yes, it is
<Nuck>
Ah
<elliottcable>
usually they include the public address on them in a visible fashion
<Nuck>
Well that's good at least
<elliottcable>
meaning you can check the blockchain that they indeed have unspent inputs
<Nuck>
Still silly
<Nuck>
Why go on the physical layer
<elliottcable>
and, of course, there's the fact that you know nobody *else* has the private key, due to the destroy-to-access nature of the construction
<elliottcable>
oh, for fun
<elliottcable>
gifts, etceteras
<Nuck>
I'd be more interested in a smartcard which acts as a wallet, but I guess that role is being filled by smartphones now
<elliottcable>
it's cute to give somebody a 0.25 ฿ *coin* for their birthday or something
<elliottcable>
oh, you can get that too
<Nuck>
... how did oyu get the bitcoin logo inline there
<elliottcable>
there's a really neat gold-plated bar
<elliottcable>
you can “deposit” money to the public address of the bar
<elliottcable>
but the privkey is securetly stored *inside* the bar
<elliottcable>
so you can dump the bar in a safe, or a safe-deposit box at a bank somewhere
<Nuck>
hahaha
<elliottcable>
then send bitcoin to it as a “savings account”
<Nuck>
That's silly, just use a flash drive XD
<elliottcable>
if you ever need to break open the piggy bank so to speak, you retreive the physical gold bar, and break out the privkey
<elliottcable>
don't need the flashdrive at all
<elliottcable>
can print out a privkey to a piece of paper just as easily
<Nuck>
haha true but that means retyping it
<Nuck>
Unless it's ECDSA keys
<elliottcable>
piece of dead paper in a safe is approximately the safest possible method for storing bitcoin
<Nuck>
Then it can fit in a very large QR
<elliottcable>
most wallets can import QR codes
<Nuck>
Most private keys (good ones at least) won't fit in a QR code
<Nuck>
I've tried
* elliottcable
laughs
<elliottcable>
mmhmm
<elliottcable>
flash drive could carry a virus, though.
<elliottcable>
or similar.
<Nuck>
I did a lot of research when I was researching the idea of using public key cryptography for IDs, etc.
<elliottcable>
piece of paper, you can verify on multiple machines as being in-tact, or even by eye if you're insane
<Nuck>
(as in, bringing it to physical identification too)
<whitequark>
in-sane
<elliottcable>
damn, I just *annihilated* that coffee
<elliottcable>
whitequark ⑊ I thoroughly like you.
<elliottcable>
Just throwing that out there.
<elliottcable>
I've only known you briefly so far, but I'm quite glad to have you here. (=
<whitequark>
:D
* elliottcable
waits idly for his verification transaction to confirm
<elliottcable>
an·ni·hi·late
<Nuck>
elliottcable: What coffee was it?
<elliottcable>
Keurig cup.
<elliottcable>
Some Green Mountain shit.
<elliottcable>
I'm not very good at coffee, so far.
<Nuck>
Yuck.
<Nuck>
Even I'm coffeeing better than that, elliottcable
<elliottcable>
At the moment, I like medium roasts, with 1tbsp of almond-milk and ½tbsp of sugar
<Nuck>
And I have like, no money
<elliottcable>
Not sure what to look for in a coffee, yet.
<elliottcable>
There's a local coffeeshop that's goddamn legendary
<elliottcable>
they do french roast, which I've never done, and am excited to try
<Nuck>
What's the name, I bet I hear of it
<elliottcable>
but you have to buy 2x 20oz at once
<Nuck>
I know a barista in Chicago area
<elliottcable>
so I need my girlfriend to do it with me, or someone, and she won't
<Nuck>
I was chatting with them... last week?
<elliottcable>
I'm not in Chicago right now
<elliottcable>
I'm in North Carolina
<Nuck>
Oh?
<elliottcable>
and it's the Port City Java chain
<Nuck>
Ah
<elliottcable>
they expanded from here in Wilmington out to three states, it's a cool story
<elliottcable>
they have some absolutely decadent mochas o_o;
<Nuck>
I ordered some coffee from a nice bay area roaster over the weekend
<Nuck>
Wonderful shit, free shipping
<elliottcable>
the “Black & Tan,” which is white chocolate, dark chocolate, caramel, and a light roast.
<Nuck>
Interesting
<Nuck>
I've not got the equipment to handle a light roast well yet
<Nuck>
So I'm sticking to dark and medium darks until I get better stuff
<elliottcable>
huh?
<elliottcable>
need better equipment for a light roast? confused.
<elliottcable>
I have a couple flavoured light roasts for my keurig that are ... watery. and meh.
<Nuck>
Light roasts work better on things like espresso machines
<elliottcable>
they *sound* good, and have a nice taste, but it's just really watery
<elliottcable>
tastes like flavoured hot water, sorta /=
<elliottcable>
FUCKING CONFIRM ALREADY
<Nuck>
Exactly why espresso is better for it — espresso concentrates the flavor
* elliottcable
glowers at the Blockchain results
<elliottcable>
I'm told espresso is disgusting, by aforementioned girlfriend coffee-lover
<Nuck>
I got a cheap burr grinder, I think next I want to get a pourover system
<elliottcable>
she says it tastes different from roast coffee
<elliottcable>
which I don't grasp, because I thought it was just concentrated coffee ... or something
<elliottcable>
#noob
<Nuck>
It does, but it all depends on how big of a dumbass the person pulling the shots is
<elliottcable>
I'm never using no transaction fee, ever again
<elliottcable>
fucked this up royally.
<whitequark>
hehehe
<Nuck>
Wow he's an ass, whitequark
<elliottcable>
Nuck ⑊ Welcome to Ryan Davis. /=
<elliottcable>
I used to help teach people ruby in #ruby-lang, a lifetime ago.
<elliottcable>
I *loved* teaching, and I was extremely familiar with the internals.
<Nuck>
I don't think ruby really needs "teaching"
<elliottcable>
*He* didn't like me; so, it didn't matter what I did for the community, or how much I was liked by those *other* than him ... he banned me.
<elliottcable>
Other ops kept inviting me back, and he kept banning me.
<Nuck>
I figured the core language out within a week, now it's just figuring out ways to rape the language using their edgecases and shit
<elliottcable>
Finally, he threatened to take ops away from anybody who invited me back, and made it clear that he didn't care what I did for the better, or if I changed, or anything the fuck else ... I was never to be allowed in again.
<elliottcable>
Those incidents formulated a hell of a lot of my theories about running IRC channels nowadays.
<Nuck>
Was that before or after you banned half of #elliottcable
* elliottcable
laughs
<elliottcable>
before.
<elliottcable>
but #elliottcable is a social channel.
<elliottcable>
That's substantially different than an official channel, supporting a real product.
<Nuck>
What is #ruby-lang supporting?
<Nuck>
The actual ruby language or what?
<elliottcable>
yep
<elliottcable>
was the official channel of MRI, last I checked.
<elliottcable>
Of course, there's also #ruby, which is nearly as populous
<elliottcable>
populated entirely by people who hate zenspider.
<elliottcable>
or at least, *existing* because of people who hate zenspider, and populated by those who simply like to be different *or* hate zenspider (... or both.)
<Nuck>
THAT is the room I'm in
<elliottcable>
yep.
<Nuck>
I assumed #ruby was the normal one
<elliottcable>
it's unnoficial, and in a state of non-ownership
<elliottcable>
the people owning the channel are absentee owners, so there's no mods or control or regulation
<elliottcable>
#ruby-lang is regulated, and thus official and officially preferred ...
<Nuck>
Somebody should probably talk to Freenode about adopting it...
<elliottcable>
with the only problem being that it's regulated by a famously *asshole-ish* moderator.
<elliottcable>
yes, been done, not going to happen
<elliottcable>
don't know the specifics
<elliottcable>
think part of it being that #ruby is now officially “wrong” or unofficial
<elliottcable>
so I expect Freenode's answer is “Move to #ruby-lang. It's where your mods want you. We're not clearing up #ruby's ownership for an unofficial group.”
<elliottcable>
He's fairly boring, but a skilled developer. One of the more “down to earth” voices in here.
<elliottcable>
The only fact of note is that none of us knows what he looks like, how old he *actually* is, or anything else about his life. He's consistently private.
<elliottcable>
So, we've a large array of “OH MY GOD, THIS IS WHAT ALEXGORDON LOOKS LIKE” jokes.
<elliottcable>
I was pointing out that ooblech, or whatever it's called, on a speaker, is probably what alex actually looks like.
<elliottcable>
Because he's an alien.
<elliottcable>
#doctorwhoinspiredtwist
<whitequark>
ah.
* elliottcable
laughs
<elliottcable>
this channel has a hell of a lot of history.
<Nuck>
Even I can't fap to this. well, I can, but I'm too busy laughing.
<fwg>
lol
<purr>
lol
<Nuck>
Also my penis kinda burns from the thought of entering a stomach
<vil>
what is even
<vil>
what
<vil>
not clicking that
<Nuck>
First one is anal ovary groping
<Nuck>
Second is oral sex with a penis in the stomach
<Nuck>
Neither is gory just NSFW and absurd
<vil>
currently in class, so...
<vil>
where do you find this stuff?
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<whitequark>
since when elliottcable is into weird hentai?
<locks>
7:07 PM <vil> where do you find this stuff?
<locks>
see, japanese culture has these things called manga
<locks>
it's their equivalent to comic books, if you will
<locks>
one of the many categories of the so called manga is hentai
<locks>
sometimes called h-manga bu gaijins
<locks>
(gaijin is the romanization of a japanese word for foreigner)
<locks>
in these so called hentai mangas, the main subject approa
<fwg>
...
<whitequark>
omg, my shitty homegrown not-so-working-parser-generator was actually an LL(1) recursive descent parser which emulated LL(k) with lookahead trees
* whitequark
congratulates itself with reinventing the wheel
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<alexgordon>
"Second is oral sex with a penis in the stomach"
<alexgordon>
naturally
<whitequark>
that is not natural by any measure
audy has left #elliottcable ["must hide from campus thought police"]