<Determinist>
not necessarily that particular song, but that whole playlist is pretty kick ass
<whitequark>
not on the level of "totally awesome" but "pretty nice"
<whitequark>
thanks
<Determinist>
np, and i guess it depends on one's taste.
<Determinist>
i like the instrumental stuff
<Determinist>
not so much the punk
<whitequark>
the first few songs I picked were a bit too repetitive for me. it got better after that
<whitequark>
er, tracks
<whitequark>
(is it a song if it doesn't have any lyrics?.. *confused*)
<devyn>
whitequark: no, it's a piece
<devyn>
though most people just say song anyway
<alexgordon>
angry tweet from incomprehensibly in 5... 4... 3...
fwg has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
fwg has joined #elliottcable
fwg has joined #elliottcable
<Nuck>
Wow my VB professor is actually good at explaining core concepts of OOP
<Nuck>
Abstraction, encapsulation, etc.
<whitequark>
... all have very distant relation to OOP
<whitequark>
... unsurprisingly.
<whitequark>
Nuck: now that we're at it
<whitequark>
why the hell are you in thi^W^W^W^W^W^W^Wwhat's the language you are designing?
<Nuck>
... WTF was with that ^W?
<Nuck>
As for "language I'm designing" the answer is currently "none" because, despite what elliott likes to claim, this room is only vaguely related to programming languages in that a few members (like, 5) are working on their own ones.
sephr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<Nuck>
The rest of us make real, useful things
sephr has joined #elliottcable
<whitequark>
Nuck: kids these days... open shell. type in "foo bar baz". type in Ctrl+W, observe.
<whitequark>
also man readline
<whitequark>
re language: I make a real, useful language and get paid for that ;)
<Nuck>
I know what ^W does, I just don't understand why it was mid-line there
<Nuck>
And yes, you do, but nobody else here is making anything useful
<Nuck>
They're busy making esoteric languages
<Nuck>
Under the illusion that it isn't esoteric
<whitequark>
esoteric languages are important
<Nuck>
Absolutely
<whitequark>
thus, useful.
<Nuck>
But esoteric languages are not directly useful
<whitequark>
very few things are directly useful in this world.
<whitequark>
not even money
* whitequark
hands bitcoins to Nuck
<Nuck>
Please do. I've been meaning to invest in bitcoins
<Nuck>
Many things are more directly useful than esoteric languages
<Nuck>
money is directly tradeable for goods and services
<whitequark>
... like bitcoins? :D
<Nuck>
Esoteric languages are indirectly useful in that they influence future languages
<whitequark>
also, because they are often art.
<Nuck>
True enough, but I wouldn't call Paws art.
<Nuck>
Assuming it's ever finished
<alexgordon>
Nuck: furrow isn't esoteric!
<whitequark>
art does not necessarily need to be finished...
<alexgordon>
can't say the same about the others :P
<Nuck>
Paws is interesting, certainly, but it's about as art as a crazy cat lady throwing cats at a wall
<Nuck>
alexgordon: Only you and whitequark have made reasonable languages
<alexgordon>
lolol
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
rofl
<Nuck>
Yours was originally les reasonable
<whitequark>
les miserables
<Nuck>
And more crazy
<alexgordon>
you've succeeded in finding something me and whitequark have in common
<whitequark>
alexgordon: DNA?
<Nuck>
The crazy languages push us forward, the reasonable languages take the improvements and apply them to everyday problems
<alexgordon>
whitequark: I'm actually a highly intelligent virus
<whitequark>
we share *at least* 99% of it
<whitequark>
haha
<whitequark>
still... DNA?
<whitequark>
or are you a retrovirus
<Nuck>
Also why the fuck is this stubbing not working and why is Rails calling Vote.vote here?
* Nuck
rages at this test suite
<alexgordon>
Nuck: true that, I mean I started with Orb, which was a derivative of Paws, then Forb, then various forms of Furrow...
<whitequark>
Nuck: please proceed to undress rails and fuck them. it. her. whatever, just get to the job already
<Nuck>
alexgordon: And now Femtofurrow
<alexgordon>
femtofurrow IS furrow though
<alexgordon>
just like, dumbed down :P
<whitequark>
(sorry, too much parsers and not enough sleep)
<Nuck>
whitequark: DHH porn?
<whitequark>
Nuck: I'll leave it to your imagination
<alexgordon>
Nuck: femtofurrow is just furrow with the hard bits of the compiler removed ;)
<Nuck>
alexgordon: Yes, but now it's got all the interesting parts removed, like Paws v00
<whitequark>
Nuck: I'm fairly sure you will be much more resourceful in that
<Nuck>
Which makes it an everyday language
<alexgordon>
haha but the language is the same
<whitequark>
alexgordon: hahaha, the "reasonably clever compiler" myth :p
<Nuck>
alexgordon: Then the intersting parts of your stdlib is gone
<whitequark>
or how was it, "a compiler clever enough"? smth along these lines
<alexgordon>
Nuck: ? no it's the same language...
<Nuck>
"reasonably smart compiler"
<whitequark>
Nuck: "smart enough compiler".
<whitequark>
"a smart enough compiler myth" it was.
<whitequark>
wow, Nuck was useful
<Nuck>
alexgordon: So all you did was take out optimizations so anything that runs on Femtofurrow runs on Furrow, and vice-versa?
<alexgordon>
Nuck: yes, though the type system might be simplified a bit
<Nuck>
I have pretty good memory, so I remember you guys talking about that, whitequark
<Nuck>
alexgordon: Well that's interesting then
<alexgordon>
I designed furrow to be a simple language that's easy to implement, so...
<whitequark>
to anyone who thinks that optimizations are not important in this context
<whitequark>
please proceed to compare PEG performance and packrat performance.
<Nuck>
haha "I never recommend running multiple instances of any microsft software, they never work well"
<alexgordon>
s/multiple //
<whitequark>
^ that
<Nuck>
Optimizations are important, but technically anything which runs on unoptimized should run optimized. Of course, the unoptimized one may just be entirely non-useful
<Nuck>
And yeah, I hate MS software too
<alexgordon>
are you talking about furrow or did I miss part of the conversation?
<whitequark>
Nuck: define "runs". on a theoretical evaluator with infinite resources? maybe
<whitequark>
on a practical machine, *any* practical machine that might just not be true
<Nuck>
I'm replying to whitequark's remark that optimizations are important anyways
<alexgordon>
yeah but what was that regarding?
<Nuck>
whitequark: This is true, but theoretically speaking they are the same language
<Nuck>
And that's what's important
<alexgordon>
paws? furrow? entirely theoretical?
<Nuck>
alexgordon: Yes, I do believe
<whitequark>
let's base a language around factorizing very large numbers with two prime divisors
<whitequark>
that gonna be cool
<Nuck>
haha
<alexgordon>
somewhere
<alexgordon>
I went through and categorized all forms of optimizations
<whitequark>
or better, elliptical curves
<alexgordon>
but I lost the file :\
<Nuck>
Cmd+Space, Spotlight dat shit?
<alexgordon>
tried
<Nuck>
Or do you mean deleted?
<Nuck>
Damn
<alexgordon>
no it's there somewhere
<alexgordon>
but not sure
<whitequark>
alexgordon: let's write an optimizing compiler which produces, as an output, a program which applies all forms of optimizations not applied to this program to the input
<whitequark>
Godel's incompleteness FTW
<Nuck>
recursive grep on /home, alexgordon?
<alexgordon>
an optimizer only has to be AI complete to be as good as a human...
<alexgordon>
;)
<Nuck>
Except humans suck at optimization in many ways
<whitequark>
optimizers are commonly better than humans?
<alexgordon>
sure are
<alexgordon>
as good as
<alexgordon>
they can be better
<Nuck>
I'd say better
<alexgordon>
but also worse
<Nuck>
Crankshaft optimizes my JS better than I could myself (and I've tried)
<whitequark>
alexgordon: strictly better, at least when it takes to optimizing C->assembly.
<alexgordon>
optimizers suck at high level big changes, humans can do that easily
<alexgordon>
but it's not like it's intractable, because *we* can do it
<whitequark>
alexgordon: you have never seen a compiler remove half of your code and inline the other half into main(), apparently.
<whitequark>
the problem with eg inlining vcalls and shit is that too much code exports too much of its internals via a strict ABI
<whitequark>
because wtf C++
<alexgordon>
well maybe but it's not going to independently come up with timsort, is it?
<Nuck>
Is markov-chaining applicable to code?
<vil>
Nuck: lol optimizing javascript
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
alexgordon: we simply don't call that "optimizing"
<alexgordon>
why not
<Nuck>
vil: Hey, V8 does a pretty good job of that
<alexgordon>
it's making stuff faster
<whitequark>
Nuck: yeah, called "fuzzing"
<whitequark>
alexgordon: hrm
<whitequark>
maybe
<Nuck>
whitequark: Has anyone ever fed all of Github (all languages) into a markov chaining system as a corpus of text
<Nuck>
And seen what happened
<vil>
it just seems like a fundamentally ridiculous proposition
<alexgordon>
Nuck: i have several GBs of code I downloaded from github...
<whitequark>
vil: read as "partially ameliorating ineffeciences inherent in the language" and it suddenly makes sense
<Nuck>
alexgordon: Don't we all?
<alexgordon>
in all different languages
<Nuck>
My Code folder is like 100 subfolders
<alexgordon>
no but what I mean is, I wrote a script to scrape github
<alexgordon>
downloaded hundreds of projects...
<alexgordon>
in the name of science
<Nuck>
haha
<whitequark>
alexgordon: we don't do these kinds of optimizatiosn in compilers because the results are highly unpredictable
<whitequark>
not because the compilers can't do them.
<vil>
whitequark: that was a hell of a sentence :D
<whitequark>
vil: reading lots of papers ;)
<alexgordon>
whitequark: obviously you've never used Java!
<vil>
also the wifi here is worse than should be possible at a tech school
<whitequark>
alexgordon: elaborate
<whitequark>
how a java compiler is going to change one sorting algorithm to another?
<alexgordon>
it isn't
<vil>
I need to learn all of the words for this stuff so I can sound like I know what I'm talking about
<alexgordon>
but the JVM's JIT isn't exactly predictable
<whitequark>
until we go fully declarative, the compilers are required at least to seem to preserve the original algorithm's structure
<whitequark>
alexgordon: I talk about orders of magnitude less predictability
<whitequark>
not that LLVM is entirely predictable from the human's POV either
<Nuck>
Just make a magickal compiler to replace bogosort with quicksort
<Nuck>
And POOF, instant optimization
<whitequark>
Nuck: you'll hang yourself debugging that.
<Nuck>
whitequark: I do enjoy nooses.
<whitequark>
Nuck: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<vil>
I've read lots of interesting stuff on C compiler optimizations lately, it sounds absolutely terrifying
<whitequark>
vil: it's because C optimizations are based on broken contracts
<Nuck>
Which is why I just let LLVM do its thing
<alexgordon>
whitequark: anyway I'm not sure why I'm arguing this... point is that an optimizer only has to be as smart as a human, and there are no mathematical problems with that...
<whitequark>
alexgordon: an optimizer only as smart as human is useless
<alexgordon>
not at all
<alexgordon>
I can go on holiday
<alexgordon>
relax on a beach
<whitequark>
define "smart"
<whitequark>
but not really
<Nuck>
How about we make a system which takes a description of an application and magically builds itself
<vil>
smart as a human can still be smarter than an average human
<Nuck>
It would be easier than this
<Nuck>
And more useful
<whitequark>
how about we make a sane ./configure script generator
<vil>
Nuck: let us know how that goes
<whitequark>
*badumtss*
<devyn>
whitequark: cmake?
<whitequark>
devyn: DONT SPOIL MY JOKES
<whitequark>
but yeah yeah.
<alexgordon>
whitequark: okay, say I have a friend in china called "Boris". I pay Boris to optimize my code for me. Now imagine Boris is a computer. No laws of nature or mathematics have been violated.
<Nuck>
vil: I think it'd be funny to just start with a randomly generated program and then attempt to use survival of the fittest along with a set of unit tests (and a test coverage lib) to determine a solution
<whitequark>
alexgordon: why the fuck do you need a computer, chinese people are cheaper
<alexgordon>
not sure
<whitequark>
Nuck: I believe that's how enterprisey code is written
<whitequark>
alexgordon: considering R&D, yes
<alexgordon>
because life is ultimately meaningless and tasks like building optimizers is all that stops us from spending an eternity of depression?
<vil>
holy shit my insert method actually does work
<whitequark>
alexgordon: ...
<vil>
I wrote WORKING C
<Nuck>
vil: I wish I could say the same about unit tests :/
* Nuck
can't write working tests
<alexgordon>
whitequark: we could become subsistence farmers
<vil>
I've never written a unit test
<vil>
so
<Nuck>
vil: Nor have I
<vil>
haha
<Nuck>
Which is why it keeps blowing up, methinks
* whitequark
will from this moment onwards replace all his words with "fuck"
<whitequark>
fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck?
<vil>
whitequark: this is basically a description of conversation in this room when you guys aren't around
<whitequark>
fuck.
<vil>
^^
<Nuck>
I think this is actually just another esoteric language
yorick has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Sgeo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Sgeo has joined #elliottcable
<whitequark>
-loves whitequark
<purr>
whitequark: whitequark loves git, console, purr, and pur.
<whitequark>
-hates whitequark
<purr>
whitequark: whitequark hates foo.
<whitequark>
++ foo
<purr>
Let it be known that whitequark is indifferent to foo.
<whitequark>
--pur
<whitequark>
-- pur
<purr>
Let it be known that whitequark is indifferent to pur.
<whitequark>
-loves Nuck
<purr>
whitequark: Nuck loves his penis, JavaScript, Redis, OrangeSoda, himself, Cracked, his iPhone, purr, LESS, Mocha, BitTorrent, gqbrielle, portland, Iron & Wine, Arch Linux, ∆, gqbe, Bombay Bicycle Club, dicks, DownThemAll, ##Hat, LaTeX, /j, Chrome, Lemon Jelly, /buffer clear, Broken Bells, Neutral Milk Hotel, Fleet Foxes, Arcade Fire, Cage The Elephant, Sufjan Stevens, vil, movements, VirtualBox, Tame Impala, Tunng, Hooray For Earth, Andrew Bird, Trails and Ways,
<whitequark>
make me unsee that
<whitequark>
-hates Nuck
<purr>
whitequark: Nuck hates penis, elliottcable, Bush was an idiot. At least Bush Jr., Nuck, Mormons., I give up, Fuck you too, purr, node.js so much, PHP, and .
<whitequark>
aaaaargh
<whitequark>
-loves elliottcable
<purr>
whitequark: elliottcable loves cloudhead, devyn, tucker, gqbrielle, IamTash, Bluebie, alexgordon, Breaking Bad, zsh, purr, locks, last.fm, Zero 7, Tiberian Sun, cold, berri, NuckOff, git, George R. R. Martin, github, OS X, micahjohnston, ChelseaP, GitHub, brits, the cock, SubStack, Aria, isaacs, negative space, Lua, zzap, logs, #elliottcable, russfrank, Kaufmann Mercantile, iPad, tmux, SSH, Prompt.app, Little Snitch, Ronald Jenkees, JavaScript, judofyr, Primer, So
<purr>
<devyn> please, Nuck couldn't generate a word cloud if his hair were on fire
<whitequark>
-hates elliottcable
<purr>
whitequark: elliottcable hates mordof, darkf, colds, Express, having to make things complex so that they seem simple, Node.js, oftn-bot, fear of words, albel727, all of you, very much, prophile, reddit, alexgordon ಠ_ಠing ಠ_ಠ, his_hoofiness, single-threaded software, unnecessary semicolons, google, google’s style guides, Owl City, cats, Cracked, mikolalysenko, chjj, dnyy, upgrayedd, Katie K., Java, PHP, Deleware, david_mark, alcohol, pot, Deamonboy, reali
<whitequark>
-hearts whitequark
<whitequark>
I hate foo
<whitequark>
hm.
* whitequark
hates foo
<alexgordon>
</3 foo
* whitequark
waves his hand in purr's face
<alexgordon>
hm
* purr
rr
<alexgordon>
foo </3
<alexgordon>
dammit
<whitequark>
<3 foo
<purr>
Let it be known that whitequark hearts foo.
* whitequark
slaps alexgordon around a bit with a large trout
<alexgordon>
foo --
<alexgordon>
-- foo
<purr>
Let it be known that alexgordon hates foo.
<alexgordon>
there we go
* whitequark
slaps purr around a bit with a large trout
* purr
r
* whitequark
runs around and slaps everyone here with a large trout
<whitequark>
CHUNKY BACOOO... *ahem* LARGE TROOOOUUT
<whitequark>
-- semicolonless javascript
<purr>
Let it be known that whitequark hates semicolonless javascript.
<whitequark>
I feel like “it’s complicated” should be an option on more forms. Single/Married/It’s Complicated. M/F/IC. Marvel/DC/Captain Complication