sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<adlai>
proof-of-work offloads the calculation of sybil probability to the axioms of thermodynamics.
<adlai>
proof-of-stake just shuffles trust around like a two-bit huckster betting on a shell game.
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<TomElvisJudusor>
Have you heard the news? Mimblewimbles screwed, the guys developing grin coin have only gone and followed Ethereum instead of the leader Bitcoin, and used a memory intensive POW called Cuckoo (which is a mad) instead of a random computation, they've forgotten that the reason that graphics cards were used in the first place is because that had fast computation. Satoshi had the right idea. There's a phrase with the ac
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<TomElvisJudusor>
with zeros is simple, and as long as the guesses are made randomly instead of incrementally, it's not the person with the biggest GPU that wins, it's the person with their fingers crossed the most.
<TomElvisJudusor>
Somebody else make my protocol.
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<Guest98680>
what were you saying about thermodynamics adlai?
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<Guest98680>
I agree with TomElvisJudusor .. keep it simple stupid .. satoshi had the right idea
<Guest98680>
i've seen the code for cuckoo, it's overly complicated. all they need is to randomly find a number.
<Guest98680>
not start a big bang
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<Guest98680>
says some nutter called john tromp developed it
<Guest98680>
bet he takes drugs
<Guest98680>
tromp you there mate?
<Guest98680>
what were you thinking
<Guest98680>
was it LSD?
<tromp>
yes, i'm here
<Guest98680>
thoughts?
<Guest98680>
you're awfully quiet
<tromp>
thoughts on what? i just got here
<tromp>
cuckoo is the simplest possible pow
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<Guest98680>
satoshi chose a simpler pow scheme
<tromp>
no, sha256 is pretty complicated
<Guest98680>
why did you have to go and reinvent the wheel sir
<tromp>
compared to siphash24
<kanzure>
tromp: this seems like irc spam to me
<Guest98680>
and the memory requirement?
<sipa>
go troll elsewhere
<Guest98680>
that complicates things dear sir
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<tromp>
that makes it memory bound rather than compute bound
<tromp>
no, memory is straighforward. and everybody has memory ASICs aka DRAM
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<tromp>
building a cuckoo ASIC to max out DRAM bandwidth should not be too hard
<tromp>
and will be tiny and affordable
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<james>
a binding that complicates requirements instead of simplifying them i might add
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<Guest77798>
you dont need to store anything to cycle through hashes until you find the right one
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<Guest77798>
computing power is more affordable
<Guest77798>
that was satoshis reasoning
<Guest77798>
read the papers.
<tromp>
i read his paper
<Guest77798>
mores law
<Guest77798>
?
<tromp>
there were no decent memory hard PoWs when he had to pick one
<tromp>
so he picked the simplest known (hashcash)
<Guest77798>
hmmm
<tromp>
no idea if he might have liked the idea of memory bound pow
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<Guest77798>
"hashcash stamp is added to the header of an email to prove the sender has expended a modest amount of CPU time calculating the stamp prior to sending the email. In other words, as the sender has taken a certain amount of time to generate the stamp and send the email,"
<Guest77798>
there is no time in memory, only computation
<tromp>
compute bound pow is certainly a good idea, and bitcoin's is close the the best choice for that
<Guest77798>
i agree
<tromp>
i'm trying to find out what could be the best form of memory bound pow
<Guest77798>
i understand and its perfect
<Guest77798>
to get to the point, i feel that keeping it computation bound is the wiser decision
<tromp>
i'm not saying it;s better than compute bound. i say let's try and see how it might tap in to the commodity DRAM market
<Guest77798>
ahh
<Guest77798>
i see where your going with this
<tromp>
for the most efficient implementation
<Guest77798>
hmm
<Guest77798>
the only thought that comes to mind, is what would satoshi do
<Guest77798>
i like your idea
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<Guest77798>
im asking myself, what has bitcoin done to the gpu market, and what will it do for the ram market
<Guest77798>
i dont see prices going down
<Guest77798>
in fact, i see the same hardware from years ago with the same price tag
<Guest77798>
with tweaks here and there
<Guest77798>
new names
<Guest77798>
it's almost as if moo'res law slowed down. the big boys get all the big toys
<Guest77798>
we get the rebranded crap
<Guest77798>
i want 64 core availability
<kanzure>
move along to #bitcoin or somewhere else please, and refer to the /topic in the future (or lurk more)
<Guest77798>
i guess my problem is that theoretically reduce adoption short term is not a problem for long term adoption
<Guest77798>
im sorry tromp, your correct, there is no long term adoption problem with a memory bound pow
<Guest77798>
not one that i can think of
<Guest77798>
all i know is that satoshi chose computations, that graphics cards were chosen for the same reason
<Guest77798>
that long term, proof of work >works< without an additional requirement bogging down the future
<Guest77798>
preventing those not upto date with technology due to fiat loosing value and prices going up
<Guest77798>
adopting the technology
<Guest77798>
that is free open source sofwtare
<Guest77798>
with zero cost
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<Guest77798>
i guess the problem is not that they adopt the software
<Guest77798>
its how much value has
<Guest77798>
a cryptocurrency bound to computation has more value than that of one bound to memory
<Guest77798>
i understand bitcoins an experiment, and that you want to experiment also
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<Guest77798>
your ahead of your time dear sir!
<Guest77798>
whats best for the cryptocurrency?
<Guest77798>
specifically the future of cryptocurrencies
<Guest77798>
a penny for your thoughts
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<Guest77798>
i can buy a 1tb hdd cheaper than 4gb of ram
<Guest77798>
why go with DRAM?
<Guest77798>
because it's faster :(
<Guest77798>
?
<Guest77798>
isn't whats important to cryptocurrency faster computation, faster storage?
<Guest77798>
larger storage
<Guest77798>
we don't need to create a shortage in RAM
<Guest77798>
with the advances that grin coin brings to the community of all crypto enthusiasts, you must ask yourself. am i doing the right thing
<tromp>
we don't know how to make a simple proof of disk space. bram cohen is trying, but it's looking awfully complicated
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<Guest77798>
you pulled a tromp card there...
<Guest77798>
i guess i need to invest in some dram
<Guest77798>
errr
<Guest77798>
it's fixed
<Guest77798>
4-6gb you say?
<Guest77798>
i understand computation bound proof of work is scalable
<tromp>
this is quite offtopic, go to grin gitter to discuss further
<Guest77798>
what are your plans for scalability with cuckoo
<Guest77798>
scalability is a future topic for cryptocurrency
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<Guest77798>
i get more bang for my buck with bitcoin on a 128 core cpu, with cuckoo and 128gb of dram .. might as well have wasted my money on 120gb of it
<Guest77798>
are you sure that the technology is ready to be implemented?
<Guest77798>
it doesnt sound like proof of dram at all to me
<Guest77798>
only a little bit
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