sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<JackH>
http://myriadcoin.org/en/home what is the downside to having multiple algo's for solving blocks like this coin?
<JackH>
Wouldn this solve our attack problem once and for all?
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<JackH>
or at least until ASIC's gets developed for each method
<sipa>
JackH: you only need to attack one
<JackH>
but thats only if we serialise them
<JackH>
what if no method could do more than 5 in a row, for example
<sipa>
you're just needlessly complicating the problem while making it harder to analyse
<sipa>
every problem in that class will at some point be economical to produce an ASIC for
<sipa>
and the extra complexity at that point just introduced more unfairness
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<JackH>
but in this case any PoW is bound to fail
<JackH>
If all PoW's end with a few miners after the most a decade, then a cycle mechanism has to be the easiest way to keep centralization out
<sipa>
i don't see ASICs as a failure
<sipa>
they're just the natural evolution for everything
<sipa>
it's a failure when they require technology that's only available to few
<JackH>
but the side effect is that pow chains have limited lifetime
<sipa>
?
<JackH>
lets say 3 chinese miners right now agree to attack the chain, with their asics. we will have to switch pow, right?
<JackH>
I agree with the other you said btw, with that the hardware needs to be as easy to obtain as possible for everyone
<sipa>
yes
<sipa>
we'll have to switch pow then, so what?
<sipa>
that's a really bad situation
<sipa>
but it's not something that more complex algorithms can solve
<JackH>
no but they give an extended lifetime
<JackH>
we must assume human nature will eventually form large asic mining entities
<sipa>
they'll just fail much earlier
<sipa>
any nontrivial design has had many massively faster algorithms found that were not intended
<sipa>
_that_ is failure
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<JackH>
we still dont know if the current design is going to fail, from a pow sha256 point of view
<JackH>
and if we will end up switching or not
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<sipa>
i don't understand what you're arguing for
<sipa>
everything you're saying is contradicted by history
<sipa>
yes, SHA256 mining may fail, and we may need to switch to something else at some point - but hopefully not
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<JackH>
I am arguing for if there is a merit in adding rules to running multiple pow's instead of one pow as a way to do, well, pow
<sipa>
there is no example anywhere of a more complicated algorithm leading to better results
<sipa>
the only goal is preventing inequality
<JackH>
I agree
<sipa>
there is no goal of preventing ASICs, because you _can't_
<JackH>
I agree as well
<sipa>
complexity is almost directly introducing inequality
<sipa>
the simplest algorithm is the best, as the optimizations will be obvious to everyone
<sipa>
even something as simple as SHA256 mining has nontrivial optimizations (look at asicboost patents, for example), which are thankfully mild
<JackH>
possibly, but say we did sha256 and scrypt there is the odd chance there would be a big scrypt miner and a big sha256 instead of a big sha256 only
<sipa>
no, someone would just find a weird and crazy way the two interact and exploit it
<sipa>
the idea is nice, but it _does not_ work
<JackH>
ah now you are thinking adversarial
<JackH>
my point is, making it hard to dominate
<JackH>
without risking anything else
<sipa>
go away.
<JackH>
lol
<sipa>
what you're saying is utter nonsense, and it's been proven over and over again
<sipa>
we can't even prevent nontrivial optimizations in SHA256, how would you do that in something that literally just adds extra complexity to it
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<JackH>
I didnt think about it this way to begin with
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<sipa>
combining multiple algorithms is pure snakeoil, and its only use is hiding the problems with it
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<JackH>
yeah you are right
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<CubicEarth>
sipa: my fear with one algo has just been risk if it ever failed... if there were two or three in rotation, a break in one wouldn't be quite as bad. I know that s brake in SHA256 would be pretty bad for the whole world, banks, IoT, etc.
<CubicEarth>
I really so no advantage from a governance perspective though... simplicity is king in PoW
<sipa>
PoW requires partial preimage resistance
<sipa>
that's a very property for hash algorithms to break
<sipa>
MD5 would be perfectly fine to use today for PoW
<CubicEarth>
:)
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<sipa>
*uncommon property
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<CubicEarth>
I so find the talk of switching PoW a little bit strange, the miners are miners because they want to mine, not because there near some SHA265 deposits in the earth's crust. They do have massive capital investment in ASIC's, but if we moved to some GPU thing, the same miners could fill there data centers with those. I think Bitcoin may be on the brink of shaking the 'longest-chain' thing
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<CubicEarth>
It's also interesting ... if people are willing to move to a new PoW, clearly that part of the community is reconsidering the absolute value of the most work. People are realizing there are other ways to organize and get the results they want. In that context, it may be time to reconsider the size of the block subsidy!
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<CubicEarth>
12.5 BTC seems a little bit high...
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<waxwing>
andytosh2: in that mailing list thing, step 1 has challenge as H(P1+P2||R1+R2||tx) - what's t? since both should be able to compute the challenge, i wonder whether it should be something like 'xG' instead of 'tx'?
<waxwing>
oh just realised, you probably mean the transaction you're going to sign? :)
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<waxwing>
really cool idea; just tweak the nonce by the "hash" (point) and it's verifiable that it'll get revealed
<waxwing>
does this interact in any way with the shenanigans needed to make aggregated schnorr safe?
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<bsm117532>
WRT the RSA timelock puzzle andytoshi has been discussing for scriptless timelocks...the assumption that makes that work is that computation is trapped at ~4GHz by serial operations on CMOS silicon.
andytosh2 is now known as andytoshi
<bsm117532>
But there exist other technologies such as GaAs and InP semiconductors, etched with electron beam lithography. It's expensive, but if you're protecting a billion dollar asset with an RSA timelock puzzle, suddenly throwing a few million at a custom chip is economically viable.
<andytoshi>
waxwing: haha, sorry, yes, i meant "tx" as english for "transaction"
<kanzure>
bunch of my pals have e-beams sitting around at home
<kanzure>
in future everyone should have mandatory electron beam
<andytoshi>
waxwing: i'm unsure what you mean by the nonce thing, are you suggesting making two nonces having a known difference so that when two signatures are produced they expose the key?
<bsm117532>
kanzure: Did I mention a timelock on a billion dollar asset or not? No one is going to do this in their basement.
<kanzure>
bsm117532: everyone should do it in their basement
<bsm117532>
So, ~5x faster at solving timelock puzzles.
<bsm117532>
It's critically important for timelocks in the 2 Party Fair Exchange problem (aka atomic cross-chain swaps, lightning channel closure, etc) that different timelocks created by adversarial parties can be sequentially ordered.
<bsm117532>
Only via consensus rule. andytoshi's timelock puzzles are intended to be hidden from the consensus layer.
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<danrobinson>
Yeah, that would obviously defeat the purpose. I'm wondering if there's some way for the proof-of-work to cumulatively solve some shared puzzle (like increasingly close approximate discrete logs of a point) that individual puzzles could depend on. But doesn't seem possible when I think about it.
<andytoshi>
danrobinson: i'm not aware of such a scheme. i had an argument that it is impossible a few years ago but iddo broke it ... lemme see if i can find the logs
<bsm117532>
danrobinson: one thin you could do is make the PoW be identical to the timelock -- the brute forcing of a RSA puzzle.
<bsm117532>
But, as this is not parallizeable...it doesn't really represent "work" anymore.
<bsm117532>
A different kind of key-brute-forcing that *is* parallelizeable would work...
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<bsm117532>
Let the PoW be a brute-force keyspace search for an n-bit key with somepropertyorother. The key length n becomes the difficulty. It's straightforward to tie something to the *next* key that gets brute forced. But how could you do a timelock dependent on the 2nd or nth key to be brute-forced?
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<waxwing>
andytoshi: i was more just wondering about the whole related-key thing in general, i.e. the defences you guys set up against them in the aggregated schnorr design. i didn't have any specific attack in mind.
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<oleganza>
tromp_: yeah, we worked on our version independently (since early last year). It is based on CT scheme and extended to multiple assets and confidential issuances. Naming clash is completely incidental.
<tromp_>
thx for elaborating
<tromp_>
one notable difference is choice of curve
<oleganza>
In fact we learned that Blockstream has some paper in the works on that subject only this January
<oleganza>
yeah, for unrelated reasons we had switched to ed25519 for normal signatures early in 2016 and for consistency used the same in CA
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<kallewoof>
@tromp_ I've been looking at Cuckoo Cycle (https://github.com/tromp/cuckoo) and am a bit confused about how it would actually be used as a PoW. Would it be used as the nonce for a "regular" PoW with its own 0 bits difficulty target? It seems like a single Cuckoo Cycle solution takes a long time, which doesn't seem feasible. Esp considering work return latency.
<tromp_>
no, you would apply a sha256 or similar difficulty filter on top of it
<tromp_>
you'd run each cuckoo cycle instance in maybe 10 seconds
<kallewoof>
But each instance doesn't give a solution, right?
<tromp_>
no, only about 1 in 42
<tromp_>
this is just like how equihash pow works in zcash
<tromp_>
except there the probability of a solution is much closer to 1 than 1/42
<kallewoof>
So 420 seconds per attempt with a sha256 of the solve params + block header. The sha256 difficulty filter would have to be very low, as in, once every 2 attempts, for a 10 min/block chain, or am I missing something?
<tromp_>
you might have a million miners each doing 60 attemps in 10 mins
<tromp_>
finding 60000000/42 = 1428571 solutions
<tromp_>
so difficulty is around that
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<kallewoof>
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. :)
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<andytoshi>
i'm surprised the lightning decorrelation thing is not making a bigger splash on reddit
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<bsm1175321>
andytoshi: You expect too much of reddit. I'm pretty sure the average IQ over there is in the single digits.
<fluffypony>
bsm117532: nonsense, redditors are all, on average, STEM post-grads in the 140s, 150s
<fluffypony>
you can tell by their writing
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<bsm1175321>
I've been thinking a lot about off-chain mixing networks...seems to me like this idea could be applied there too...
<bsm1175321>
Also I should pay more attention to lightning,...
<fluffypony>
and TumbleBit
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<bsm1175321>
"it doesn’t need tricky stuff like measuring packet timing or expiry and payment amounts. We will eventually end up in an arms race tackling those things" ... it's exactly packet timing I'm worried about.
<bsm1175321>
But this can be defeated by inserting junk traffic and timing delays.
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<bsm1175321>
Does lightning currently use any junk traffic or timing delays in routing?
<sipa>
afaik the sphinx routing does
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<bsm1175321>
I've been thinking of doing an analysis of the probability distributions of junk traffic and timing delays, so as to maximize the anonymity set...
<bsm1175321>
I'll look at sphinx, thanks sipa
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