sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
Aranjedeath has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Aranjedeath has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mountaingoat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
afk11_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cyphase has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
bityogi has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JHistone has quit [Quit: Leaving]
mountaingoat has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
mountaingoat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jeremyrubin>
Has anyone seen a script with a combination OP_IF pushdata in the wild? Example: OP_IF (PUSHDATA 100) OP_ELSE <99 bytes> OP_ENDIF
<jeremyrubin>
As far as I can tell, these can evaluate properly
<jeremyrubin>
if you pass in OP_1 to the script, then you get the pushdata containing <OP_ELSE || <99 bytes>>
<jeremyrubin>
if you pass in OP_0, you should execute <99 bytes> as script
thrmo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dodomojo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
thrmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomoj__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
dodomojo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
dodomoj__ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
str4d has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomoj__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomoj__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
dodomojo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
thrmo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Noldorin has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
<petertodd>
jeremyrubin: PUSHDATA's are parsed as part of GetOp, prior to the IF/ELSE/ENDIF codepath
<petertodd>
jeremyrubin: put another way, opcodes in Bitcoin have a variable-length encoding, it's just that lengths other than 1 are only used for pushdata
<petertodd>
jeremyrubin: also, bitcoin script has about 2^4096 valid opcodes :)
<gmaxwell>
OP_FORMAT_PETERTODDS_HARDDISK
<petertodd>
jeremyrubin: er, I mean, about 2^4160 valid opcodes
<petertodd>
gmaxwell: that is fortunately not one of the valid opcodes
riclas has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
AaronvanW has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<gmaxwell>
OP_GIVE_GMAXWELL_ALL_BITCOINS
<petertodd>
gmaxwell: that has a side-effect of reducing the effective number of bitcoins to zero
<petertodd>
gmaxwell: #wontfix
<gmaxwell>
If you ever thought 2^4160 was a big number, it's only slight number than the number of distinct boolean functions with 12 a bit inputs. #perspective
<gmaxwell>
er 12, 1 bit inputs.
<petertodd>
I wonder if any of those functions can play tetris?
<petertodd>
and if one can, how many?
<jeremyrubin>
how many ways can one play tetris?
<jeremyrubin>
If you can only play tetris one way, than there's your answer
<jeremyrubin>
So my script would just parse as OP_IF <OP_ELSE <99 bytes>> OP_ENDIF
<petertodd>
yup
<jeremyrubin>
Ok cool.
<petertodd>
(unless your implementation is broken)
<petertodd>
it's a nice example of why parsers are important actually!
<jeremyrubin>
(i'd imagine there are a lot of implementations that get that wrong... let's see what bcoin/btcd does...)
<petertodd>
heh
<petertodd>
I'd suggest you just put that on mainnet and see what happens :P
<petertodd>
I have negative respect for bcoin/btcd :/
<petertodd>
particularly bcoin
<jeremyrubin>
let's see... `OP_IF OP_PUSHDATA 2 OP_ELSE OP_ENDIF OP_ENDIF` should fail before execution
<jeremyrubin>
(But it does make sense that OP_PUSHDATA reads ahead! The other behavior would be problematic)
<petertodd>
better not to put the two endifs for a better test
<petertodd>
if you think about it from the perspective of langsec, what bitcoin does is the sane thing to do
<jeremyrubin>
it only looks unbalanced to a misbehaving node
<petertodd>
hmm, yeah, I think you're right there - scrap my criticism of the two endifs then
<petertodd>
anyway, I really need to get back to my MIT talk slides :) good luck!
<jeremyrubin>
thanks!
airbreather_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moli_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
airbreather has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
molz_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<kanzure>
oh where are the streams
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
legogris has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
legogris has joined #bitcoin-wizards
str4d has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
TheSeven has quit [Disconnected by services]
[7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has quit [Quit: Leaving]
rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Starduster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Robinson has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jannes has quit [Quit: Leaving]
dodomojo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
g0d355__ has quit [K-Lined]
Robinson has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
dodomojo_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
str4d has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomoj__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
dodomojo_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Aranjedeath has quit [Quit: Three sheets to the wind]
edvorg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
str4d has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
dodomoj__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
_whitelogger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
d9b4bef9 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
d9b4bef9 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cyphase has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cyphase has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]
n1ce has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
n1ce has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Robinson has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
cyphase has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Aaronvan_ has quit [Client Quit]
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has quit [Changing host]
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
edvorg has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
afk11_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
liead is now known as adlai
Davasny has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Davasny is now known as Guest84416
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bildramer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
cluelessperson has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
riclas has joined #bitcoin-wizards
edvorg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
edvorg has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
JackH has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<fm>
what bitcoin wallet and service is recommended for secure and save transactions
Robinson has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<waxwing>
fm: use #bitcoin
<fm>
thx
fm has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Leaving"]
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Noldorin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
Taek42: why did i need that list of pubkeys? can't you test whether the privkey signed, by checking the aggregate signature, without having an explicit list of pubkeys?
<Taek42>
you need to be confident that everyone who spent money in that block also got the ability to prove it in the future
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek42>
if you can prevent someone from receiving the merkle-proof for their specific output, they will never be able to spend their money again
Taek42 is now known as Taek
<kanzure>
no, that's what the signature is for, i think. if the user did not sign the signature, then they didn't spend in the block.
<kanzure>
er, i mean, if the user did not sign the data
<Taek>
oh hmm
<Taek>
I'm not convinced that is sufficient
<Taek>
you need to be certain when you see a block that an output did not get spent in the block
<kanzure>
right, so the trick is: for each block that you don't receive a proof for (user claims they didn't spend), you check whether their pubkey/privkey signed the data hash by checking the aggregate signature. ya?
<Taek>
and, you also want to be certain that any outputs which did get spent in the block are also spendable by the people who received the money
<Taek>
yes
<Taek>
hmm
Marquess_Loaf has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
<kanzure>
if they participated, then they are withholding proof data from you. if they didn't participate, then you should not expect them to give you proof data.
<Taek>
I ~think that makes sense
<kanzure>
so if that mechanism exists for aggregate signatures, then we have effectively crammed an infinite quantity of transactions into a handful of hashes and signatures.
<Taek>
well you've introduced a massive engineering problem though I think
<Taek>
which is, how do we get x,000 transactions into a block where they are all signing the same aggregate blob, such that one person leaving doesn't derail the whole thing
<kanzure>
by mining slowly and on a delay, probably
<Taek>
and, I think you can make it better as well by having multiple of these blobs
<Taek>
so instead of one giant blob that needs 50,000 participants to hit 50k transactions, you can have like 1000 blobs with 10-20 participants each
<Taek>
and then, if you've got 20 people trying to work together to build a blob, the attack vectors from people leaving or refusing to sign aren't as significant
<Taek>
you may have to repeat the whole procedure 10+ times
<Taek>
or fail and find another group
<Taek>
but this should happen in minutes
<Taek>
Then your scalability is a multiplier of how large of a group you can form
<Taek>
and that's something that devs can easily iterate on I think
<kanzure>
i think i need to verify the capability of aggregate signatures to support the functions i described above
<Taek>
yes I'm not sure that they are able to do that
<Taek>
but I actually don't really know how aggregate signatures work
<kanzure>
Taek: what about double spends in the same block. i guess you need to use a deterministic location inside the tree.
<Taek>
yeah, I think you'd just enforce that a person can only spend from one blob, and then also that a person can only spend from a deterministic place inside of the tree
<Taek>
and then I think, but don't remember completely clearly, that you also need some extra work to make sure that coin history doesn't get exponential size growth
bityogi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
coinbase outputs would have to be listed directly in the block, otherwise you have a weirdo hidden inflation mining problem
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
ninjahamstah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ninjamastah has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
ninjahamstah has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ninjahamstah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ninjahamstah has quit [Changing host]
ninjahamstah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ninjahamstah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Sosumi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lmatteis has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guest84416 is now known as dav2
NikopolSohru has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
belcher has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
NikopolSohru has quit [Quit: Leaving]
str4d has joined #bitcoin-wizards
belcher has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
MaxSan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
neha has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
neha has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
NikopolSohru has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Nik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Nik has quit [Client Quit]
oleksiyp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NikopolSohru has quit [Quit: #startup]
NikopolSohru has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bityogi has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Marquess_Loaf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mdavid613 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
neha has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
neha has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
oleksiyp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
murchandamus11 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rabidus_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Meeh_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BashCo_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has quit [*.net *.split]
str4d has quit [*.net *.split]
bitjedi has quit [*.net *.split]
ithicad has quit [*.net *.split]
mrkent_ has quit [*.net *.split]
harrymm has quit [*.net *.split]
BashCo has quit [*.net *.split]
isle2983 has quit [*.net *.split]
nikivi- has quit [*.net *.split]
josephpoon has quit [*.net *.split]
AaronvanW has quit [*.net *.split]
cyphase has quit [*.net *.split]
legogris has quit [*.net *.split]
murchandamus1 has quit [*.net *.split]
Meeh has quit [*.net *.split]
rabidus has quit [*.net *.split]
PsychoticBoy has quit [*.net *.split]
so has quit [*.net *.split]
Sosumi has quit [Quit: Bye]
josephpoon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitjedi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PsychoticBoy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
legogris has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
so has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MaxSan has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
copumpkin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Nik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bityogi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Nik has quit [Client Quit]
Nik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Nik has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Nik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NikopolSohru has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dgenr8 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Nik has quit [Quit: Leaving]
bildramer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer1 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
mrkent_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
harrymm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ithicad has joined #bitcoin-wizards
isle2983 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nikivi- has joined #bitcoin-wizards
str4d has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
bitjedi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bitjedi has quit [Changing host]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
pero has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pero has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
bityogi has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Guyver2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dav2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dodomojo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dodomojo has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
wasi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
wasi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
lmatteis has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
tromp__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]