sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<yoleaux>
Charles Hoskinson auf Twitter: "@fluffyponyza so bitcoin doesn't have a stable, always online federated quorum? Huh? I guess those mining pools don't exist"
<yoleaux>
Charles Hoskinson auf Twitter: "@fluffyponyza ah that's right, you just pay fees and have latency like you're permissionless and asynchronous. Sorry my mistake"
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<yoleaux>
Change BN128 to use 448-bit field size · Issue #29 · scipr-lab/libsnark · GitHub
<nsh>
presumably this is a pretty hard fork
<nsh>
might be worth watching
<nsh>
--
<nsh>
We decided (it was my call to make) that BN_128 is safe enough for Zcash “Sprout” 1.0. I think we should upgrade it eventually (scipr-lab/libsnark#29). To do so will require what blockchain specialists call a "hard fork" — new transactions are accepted by the new software but rejected by the old software — but not what the blockchain enthusiasts and the press call a "hard fork" — contentious, acrimonious, and resulting in two separate communiti
<nsh>
es each with their own blockchain. ☺
<nsh>
--
<nsh>
in fairness you can achieve the latter without even bothering with a software fork at all
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<zmanian>
To the best of my knowledge, the requirements of a SNARK suitable pairing group are a superset of the requirements for other use cases for pairing curves. Hopefully the broader pairing user community can converge on a common set of parameters and then we can invest the effort in constant time scalar multiplication in the elliptic curve groups.
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* nsh
nods
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<gmaxwell>
zmanian: I'm doubtful thats going to happen.
<gmaxwell>
First, the distinction between symmetric and non-symmetric pairings is critical for some protocols. Secondly, being sufficiently conservative against all threats will demand different partameters for places willing to tolerate different tradeoffs-- E.g. many applications would be completely fine with using a 500 bit curve, but for others even a 128 bit curve is too much of a performance overhead.
<gmaxwell>
To really escape the recent impovements in structured discrete log, you can't use a curve that uses a six or twelve order extension. That means that you can't use the fast BN curve families... really pushing things into a different set of tradeoffs.
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<waxwing>
ValueShuffle - coinshuffle with CT seems to be the general idea
<zmanian>
so Identity Based Encryption, Threshold Encryption, short group signatures, not interactive aggregate signatures and SNARKS could potentially use the same curve parameters which could result in better tested, more secure software. Or some of those use cases avoid the recent structured discrete log advancements on BN curves by using other pairings.
<gmaxwell>
waxwing: ya, if you go look at the RPC api in elements alpha, we specifically set it up to make it easy to combine CT with coinjoin.
<gmaxwell>
I never did manage to talk someone into setting up a CJ using it though.
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<waxwing>
without looking into it, i guess the point is that you can have the commitments separately add to zero? or f*H for fees.
<gmaxwell>
Yea, the API basically lets you ask for a transaction who's blinding factors don't add up to zero but add to some other user specified constant.
<gmaxwell>
Then the N users pick N-1 random values, compute the Nt so the n values sum to zero and use those as the CT offsets.
<gmaxwell>
then as a whole the transaction adds to zero but an observer that doesn't know the random values can't split apart the transaction.
<waxwing>
yes the paper's statement "it is not clear that the
<waxwing>
trust models of CT and P2P coin mixing can be made compatible" was surprising to me, unfortunately it seems like they didn't know it had already been addressed (and even offhand, it seems like it shouldn't be so hard)
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<waxwing>
still, doesn't mean there isn't interesting stuff there (i haven't read it all)
<waxwing>
gmaxwell: your description above sounds like only a small step away from MW :)
<gmaxwell>
I think I described interactions with CJ in one of my CT writeups. In any case, if they worked out the concrete details for choosing offsets that add to zero so that no one learns the any more than there own, than thats useful. It was obvious enough to me that it was possible to do so, but I certantly didn't work out the details.
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