sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<brguy> bsm1175321 I see. Is there any framework for that nowadays? or under development? I will look it up.
<brguy> bsm1175321: and reading from what you've said and other people I think it may not be that difficult depending on the type of contract
<danrobinson> Not really. See previous discussion starting here: https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2016-09-24/?msg=73527720&page=1
<brguy> danrobinson: thanks :-)
<brguy> maaku: from that link above, I see you suggest something using haskell, right now I'm trying something with Elixir
<bsm1175321> brguy: There's no framework. It makes Bitcoin smart contract development very difficult. One needs to insert some distributed computing and zero knowledge proof magic.
<bsm1175321> But, I think the effort is worthwhile. Making a global state machine is toxic to privacy and is the "easy way out". I don't want to show everyone my bank balances, contracts, or dirty laundry.
<bsm1175321> brguy: That's a very interesting line of thought though...what would be required to create an arbitrary state machine, with some (selective) pieces public, given the restrictions of Bitcoin?
<bsm1175321> I think most of the time this will pull in a notion of "distributed consensus" about state variables which are not published on the blockchain. But that's not an insurmountable problem...
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<bsm1175321> I'm currently working on a project which is using shamir's secret sharing to hold a pre-signed transaction, and the sharing membership set can change (though is far less than "everyone who can read the blockchain").\
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<kanzure> er, what's the point? someone is holding the pre-signed transaction prior to application of the secret sharing scheme, ya?
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<bsm1175321> The entity holding the pre-signed transaction is the entity for whom the transaction matters. (e.g. I pre-sign the transaction and distribute it because I know I'm going to lose my devices or get a new iphone)
<kanzure> i see.
<bsm1175321> So, I'm not concerned about "trusting myself" to correctly distribute the transaction.
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<brguy> bsm1175321: I'm actually thinking of transactions to export/import goods in my region, between countries. It would be cheaper with Bitcoin...
<brguy> But there are some standards and contracts that are needed for this kind of transaction that nowadays is only possible with banks, that does not accept Bitcoin
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<bsm1175321> brguy: Very interesting. There are lots of interesting ways to use Bitcoin that might involve collateral but not payment, while keeping lots of information off-chain.
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<brguy> bsm1175321: exactly, keeping the information off-chain may be an advantage here actually, I just want to proof that there was a payment, or that the money exists
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<bsm1175321> brguy: We call this use affectionately "hash & smash" -- that is, placing proof of something-or-other into the chain. This kind of use can often be aggregated into a single hash via a Merkle tree. There are companies dedicated to this including Factom and open source alternatives like petertodd's opentimestamps, and my own company's offering which can be demoed at http://solidproof.co
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<brguy> bsm1175321: your company? mind if I PM you?
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<musalbas> I wonder what other forms of payment proofs/structures exist apart from the standard txin/txout tree model
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<kanzure> musalbas: accounts?
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<adiabat> hey, anyone know what's going on with testnet3?
<adiabat> it's acheived a megablock, which is kindof cool, but I think there's parallel blocks going on
<adiabat> my 0.13.0 testnet node agrees with smartbit's block explorer
<adiabat> it seems like they diverge above height 996198. But I dunno why, maybe webbtc is talking to some altered node software or something
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<btcdrak> Lightsword, are you still mining?
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<btcdrak> adiabat: miner is back on
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<musalbas> petertodd, so using the Merbinner tree stuff you linked me to, does it support efficient consistency proofs between a tree and its updated version? i.e. like MMR/CT merkle trees. it seems like it looking at https://github.com/petertodd/python-merbinnertree/blob/master/merbinnertree/__init__.py#L469
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