sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<kanzure>
"In the current prototype, CoSi witness servers do not validate or check the messages you propose in any way; they merely serve to provide transparency by publicly attesting the fact that they have observed and cosigned the message. A future CoSi release will add support for message validation plugins, by which the servers can apply application-specific checks to messages before signing off on them, e.g., to validate a collectively ...
<kanzure>
... signed blockchain." (collective signing paper again)
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<Taek>
This algorithm is stable and I would argue that it's safe/secure as long as the block time is ~1-2x the network propagation time
<Taek>
but definitely starts having trouble if you've got an attacker that can make and propagate multiple blocks before an honest miner can propagate at least one block
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<Taek>
uh, reworded. If the honest miner tries to propagate a block, the attacker sees it first, remines all the fees, and then propagates the mined block, the honest miner is in trouble
<Taek>
and with the above algorithm the attacker can actually prevent the slow blocks from being confirmed indefinitely
<Taek>
but only if you take the block time below like 15 seconds. At 30 or 60 seconds neither attack should be possible
<Taek>
*the output from the above code can be fed into 'SageMath' to generate a graph that displays the nodes and their weighted edges.
<cjd>
403
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<bsm117532>
Taek: why does the block time matter for your arguments?
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<Eliel_>
Taek: I think it could be interesting to implement Jute as an algorithm for decentralized mining "pool". If done right and it works well enough to get a large majority of miners using it, I suspect you could even eventually soft-fork bitcoin into using that as a primary mechanism.
<bsm117532>
I've had the same thought. A while back I talked to some p2pool folks about doing that...
<Eliel_>
and once it's used widely enough by miners, the jute ordering becomes reliable enough that it's a strong indication for what transactions are going to go through much earlier than in bitcoin currently.
<bsm117532>
I want to see a proof that Taek's ordering (or any other) restores the 51% rule even in the face of selfish mining first though...
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<kanzure>
git hash-object data format is "blob <size>\0<content>" and ls-tree format is also similarly encumbered, making it highly annoying to do merkle tree inclusion proofs of files in git tree hashes. :\
<kanzure>
if it was "blob <size>\0<hash of content>" then you could prove the inclusion of your hash in the merkle tree, without also revealing your content. (unless your content is low size, like 0 <= x <= 8)
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<Taek>
<bsm117532> I want to see a proof that Taek's ordering (or any other) restores the 51% rule even in the face of selfish mining first though...
<Taek>
I'll write a formalization.
<Taek>
But it's there - once the majority of miners are confirming a particular ordering, they will not start confirming a different ordering unless >51% hashrate is working to change the vote structure
<Taek>
Though, a strong enough attacker could potentially prevent the majority of miners from confirming a particular ordering, or could make it so that certain blocks never make it into the majority-voted ordering
<bsm1175321>
A formal proof would be great, but an empirical demonstration of (probability of reversal) vs. (attacker hashrate) would be still powerful (and understood by more people than a proof).
<Taek>
I will definitely cover all of that to the best of my ability in Milan.
<bsm1175321>
I'm concerned that graphs are complicated, and there may be edge cases that a proofs miss. So I think I will add an "attacker" to my sim and give him some fraction of the hashrate, and attempt to reverse a particular block's ordering. Should be able to give a graph a la section 11 of Satoshi's paper (his calculations).
<Taek>
One great construction is 1 miner with 45% hashrate + instant propagation vs. 55 miners with 1% hashrate each
<Taek>
instant propagation means that when the attacker mines a block, all other miners see that block instantly. And when another miner mines a block, the attacker sees that block immediately
<Taek>
There are two types of graphs in particular that I find tend to 'break' algorithms
<Taek>
the first is a hidden attacker with like 40% hashrate, who continuously merges the other blocks on the network but never announces his own blocks