sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<danrobinson>
@skang404 Did you make the video private?
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<Taek>
Seems like Zcash chose to use equihash as their base PoW, which strikes me as an odd choice.
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<needmoney90>
It looks really interesting to me, and seems viable as a way of ensuring immutability (and history rewrite attacks) on weaker blockchains, by writing merkle roots of your chain into the Bitcoin chain
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<uiuc-slack>
<amiller> what are your thoughts about equihash, Taek?
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<Taek>
amiller: my understanding is that no matter what algorithm you set up, professional miners are going to be able to do a lot better than home miners
<Taek>
I haven't read too much about it, but from what I understand GPUs are within an order of magnitude of CPUs in terms of effectiveness
<Taek>
but that's still really severe
<uiuc-slack>
<amiller> it might still be worthwhile to reduce it to merely 1 order of magnitude
<Taek>
I have an anecdote to support that idea
<Taek>
When Sia launched, GPU mining was about 15x as fast as CPU mining (today the code is better, the disparity is closer to 300x)
<Taek>
And I had a friend with access to a 24-core server, but no access to GPUs
<Taek>
so he solo mined with his CPUs on the server that he wasn't paying for
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<Taek>
today with Sia, the professional miners do a lot better than the home miners, because they have the *right* GPU, and they actually dual-mine Sia and Ethereum, as Sia is a computation-bottleneck and Eth is a memory bottleneck. Mining both gets you less coins of each, but more value overall
<Taek>
The *right* GPU iirc is something like 3x or 4x as good as the average gpu
<Taek>
it's more power effecient and blah blah blah, not so useful for gaming b/c it's just not very fast
<Taek>
but great for mining
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<Taek>
I'm not super clued-in, but I don't think Sia has any altruistic miners, even though we have lots of users with idle GPUs
<Taek>
And I'm forecasting that a similar situation will apply to Zcash
<othe>
equihash closed src miners are already 1000x faster tho...
<Guest31069>
othe: seriously? Link?
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<othe>
so far cryptonight and cuckoo, cuckoo having some nice advantages as easy to verify tho, seems to be the only thing that kinda holds up
<othe>
also the stuff BBR uses, seems to work, using the blockchain as a scratchpad
<Taek>
Sia had a similar problem. Professional alt-coin-GPU-code-people released stuff that was 10x as fast as the open source alternatives. We got lucky because one of them was very eager to share his knowledge about GPUs, and so while he never shared code with us he shared basically all the important techniques that applied to blake2b.
<Taek>
Many coins don't get that out of the gate the way we did
<bsm117532>
I had been thinking to do that with Zcash, but haven't had the time...
<bsm117532>
Mining algos are boring. :-/ They all reduce to two things: (1) startup capital costs and (2) running capital costs.
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<needmoney90>
Short description is that dPoW takes the merkle root of your alt’s blockchain and embeds it in the BTC blockchain, which prevents history rewrite attacks
<bsm117532>
jl777 is that you?
<needmoney90>
I am not him, no.
<needmoney90>
I read it and thought it was really promising, it’s a twist on what Factom does
<bsm117532>
Seems really obvious to me. :-/
<uiuc-slack>
<amiller> taek that was a really interesting anecdote
<bsm117532>
Any successful consensus mechanism can be used as a bootstrap.
<needmoney90>
Yup, this just formalizes it
<needmoney90>
I think we’ll be seeing a lot more dPoW coins coming out, it’s a pretty neat use bootstrapping off of BTC’s hashpower
<needmoney90>
Even if it’s a fairly obvious logical step, it hasn’t been formalized/used before, as far as I’m aware. The closest thing I can think of is how Factom drops anchors in the BTC chain
<Taek>
needmoney90: there is the problem of censorship, and the problem of SPV. If not all the data is in the Bitcoin blockchain, you need some other guarantee that you'll be able to download whatever the btc miners commit to.
<Taek>
And, since people can put fake data in the blockchain, you don't have any SPV
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<othe>
the whole WP is utterly stupid, especially the 64 notary servers, why an even numbers, if half of them disagree of sth u have a split network...
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<Taek>
amiller: he stopped mining after the difficulty raised enough that he was no longer getting a block every day
<Taek>
at that point the GPU algorithm had not yet improved
<Taek>
(there were no mining pools)
<bsm117532>
needmoney90: Komodo has all the hallmarks of a scam. Buzzword-laden blahblah on the front page. Several things I think are bullshit (NXT, Proof of Stake).
<othe>
he could have mined with AWS instances easily, guess it was just a small time miner
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<musalbas>
I've never heard of a proof-of-publication definition that excludes the use of hashes, but I'd like to hear of one.
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<instagibbs>
publishing hashes by itself isn't proof of publication but timestamping
<Guest26311>
Oh you're just saying that the data may not be available?
<musalbas>
instagibbs, publishing hashes where, on the blockchain? timestamping vs proof-of-publication is one of the myths addressed in the linked post
<instagibbs>
musalbas, on any trusted timestamper
<instagibbs>
in the context of embedded consensus systems he's talking about bitcoin blockchain
<instagibbs>
Guest26311, yeah, the data itself has to be published
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<Guest26311>
Picking nits...that's a useless definition then.
<Guest26311>
Call it "proof of existence" or "proof of knowledge" or "timestamping"...
<musalbas>
instagibbs, sure, publishing a hash proves that you've published *something*, but without showing what that thing is. That itself has some useful applications
<instagibbs>
not at all. different use cases
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<musalbas>
Also, perhaps you have a light-proof of what it is that is published if that thing is an IPFS hash
<musalbas>
instagibbs, or maybe we should call it proof-of-commitment
<bsm117532>
You can't guarantee that the IPFS node is online and available. So "proof of publication" is useless.
<musalbas>
bsm117532, no, just my idea of an implementation of it is useless :-)
<bsm117532>
Any such proof must include the entire file itself, in addition to a timestamp. So we're back to timestamping.
<musalbas>
bsm117532, you can have proof of publication by publishing the data directly to the blockchain, thereby pissing off all the Bitcoin devs that don't advocate the use of OP_RETURN for data storage :-)
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<bsm117532>
Yeah exactly. Not a useful thing IMHO...
<musalbas>
the concept is useful, the implementation isn't practical
<bsm117532>
This is along the same line of thinking as "proof of storage". I'm pretty convinced that it's impossible, because any proof must include the all the actual data being stored. Any short-cutting mechanism is only as secure as your ability to keep secret the shortcut algorithm.
<musalbas>
the definition of 'proof-of-publication' depends on your use case. e.g. if you have a software updater, and you want all updates to be transparent to all users, then merely publishing a hash is proof of publishing a software update, even if to 1 person
<musalbas>
but if you mean proof of publishing some secret about yourself to everyone .. then yes that's more problematic
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<musalbas>
blockchain proof-of-existence / timestamping for pre-defined endpoints in medical trials
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<adlai>
kanzure, and bsm117532 : putting a hash in the blockchain proves that data existed, not that anybody other than yourself (strictly speaking, the computer used to calculate the hash) knew the data
<adlai>
"publication" implies (to me at least - maybe i'm crazy here) that the data was accessible with relative ease / cheapness to whoever knew where to look
<kanzure>
so then you would argue that proof-of-publication schemes -- like the one that was posted on w3 -- are not proof-of-publication schemes?
<adlai>
but this wouldn't be the first time that words mean different things to different people
* adlai
notes to self that he's looking for "proof of accessibility", better names welcome, if anybody understood what i'm even on about
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<musalbas>
we need better way of defining things
<musalbas>
but yeah i'd agree with you that hashing only should probably be defined as proof of existence
<musalbas>
i've read the w3c protocol and it's not very good atm i think
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<musalbas>
though it's coauthored by someone from blockstream
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<maaku>
musalbas, which proposal?
<bsm117532>
I don't think that "accessability" can be meaningfully defined in a cryptographic sense.
<maaku>
Christopher A works for Blockstream representing us on standards bodies, but his isn't I think a Blockstream proposal
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<bsm117532>
As soon as the "accessibility" proof is created...the servers go down...
<musalbas>
maaku, oh I see
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<musalbas>
someone should clearly define proof-of-publication somewhere then, because this w3c proposal will historically define it as something more like proof-of-existence
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<petertodd>
it's proof-of-publication, in the sense that someone can get a full copy of that entire record, but there's better ways to do this (certificate transparency works similarly, and is similarly less-than-optimially designed)
<petertodd>
pro-tip: when writing a security standard, you need to clearly define what you are trying to prevent :)
<petertodd>
"that provides the ability to cryptographically prove when a digital signature was created" <- ah, there you go, that's clearly intended as a proof-of-existance, not a proof-of-publication
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<kanzure>
petertodd: so you agree that only OP_RETURN-style stuff is proof-of-publication...?
<petertodd>
kanzure: no
<kanzure>
v. confused
<petertodd>
kanzure: e.g. the example I give of proving publication of a hash preimage
<petertodd>
kanzure: you don't need OP_RETURN at all; what you publish can be a perfectly valid p2pkh output script, as an example
<kanzure>
ok sure, i mean "stuffing data into the blockchain" of course.
<kanzure>
sorry about that
<petertodd>
yeah, proof-of-publication requires an actual publication to happen
<petertodd>
e.g. certificate transparency is trusted proof-of-publication, with reasonable possibilities for auditing
<musalbas>
petertodd, so your definition of proof-of-publication requires being given access to that data along with the hash, rather than *anyone* being able to access it?
<bsm117532>
There are very limited cases where you want *everyone* to see your underpants. Usually you'll want to prove something to a particular third party, not the whole world. (e.g. for auditing)
<petertodd>
musalbas: no, what you are proving publication of may just be a hash digest
<musalbas>
oh right
<petertodd>
musalbas: equaly, the audience you are proving publication to may be very small and precise
<musalbas>
makes sense
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<adlai>
bsm117532: how's this definition of accessibility: "give me a node and a bitcoin, and i can publish to the world"
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<uiuc-slack>
<amiller> petertodd your testnet seed seems down
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