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is logging
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<jmcn>
.list
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<nsh>
--
<nsh>
<TobiasFar> fod, thanks. however that doesn't seem to go beyond what's already shown at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montgomery_curve#Equivalence_with_twisted_Edwards_curves . I'm looking for a way to directly convert projective Twisted Edwards to/from to projective Montgomery, ideally without field inversions. My plan is to convert to montgomery, do scalar multiplication with its arithmetic and convert back to twisted edwards in the end.
<nsh>
<TobiasFar> nsh, is there a more appropriate for ECC related questions?
<nsh>
[..]
<nsh>
<TobiasFar> but djb, et al. use affine coordinates there, which is probably okay if you're interested in showing the birational equivalence...however in practice for performance reason most use projective coordinates, also shown in the paper for twisted Edards, and X/Z coordinates for Montgomery curves
<nsh>
assuming you read moonmath at an elementary level
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<CoinMuncher>
Possibly interesting paper for libsecp256k1 and/or Trezor developers? http://www.cosic.esat.kuleuven.be/publications/article-2475.pdf "The main advantages of the threshold implementation approach are that it provides provable security against first-order DPA attacks with minimal assumptions on the hardware technology, in particular, it is also secure in the presence of glitches, ..." Cum Laude at Dutch Twente University and Belgium Leuven U
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<Taek>
I can't speak for anyone else but I've found it difficult to understand what they are doing and why it's worth so much money
<Taek>
without knowing more, it's difficult to pass judgement
<hulkhogan_>
it almost sounds like they've created a cutting edge asic, and are using mobile as the distribution mechanism.
<hulkhogan_>
its too hard to say without details
<Taek>
mobile is a really weird choice. Your average phone battery has a hard enough time as is
<Taek>
unless their power efficiency is an order of magnitude better than anything else out there, I don't see how mining from a phone could be profitable
<hulkhogan_>
yea, thats my guess- otherwise it doesnt make sense at all (also the amount of money they raised, so they must be on to something (?))
<KuDeTa>
perhaps its more about the wallet technology, and the mining is over-egged. A hardware wallet in every device on the planet..
<Taek>
That makes more sense. Especially if they've reduced the power requirements of running a pruned node.
<hulkhogan_>
they sorta stated wanting to use the tech as a revenue model for 'pay-as-you-go' services, so you mine in the bknd and pay as you consume content (or whatever) to the distributor
<Taek>
maybe they meant by using payment channels? Again I don't see how a phone battery could mine enough bitcoins to 'pay as you go'
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<hulkhogan_>
me neither, but if you read the medium announcement, they allude to that a couple times iirc
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<temujin>
mining while your phone is charging most likely
<hulkhogan_>
ie "one can imagine the ultimate thin client [...] using the bitcoin generated therein to purchase computation in the cloud."
<temujin>
overnight and after work, can be 8-14 hours depending on your lifestyle patterns
<Taek>
I'd definietly be more interested in an asic that heats my home or water tank
* nsh
blinks
<nsh>
capitalism is stupid
<hulkhogan_>
lol
<Taek>
what specifically?
<frankenmint>
nsh: name a superior system
<frankenmint>
i implore you to
<nsh>
so a bunch of people with smartphones are going to perform a bunch of calculations that are essentially useless so they can buy imaginary items while presumably accidentally also paying for said items with their linked payment card
<frankenmint>
nsh: you must be talking about 21inc
<nsh>
or else somebody else has an incredibly optimistic business model
* nsh
nods
* frankenmint
agrees that is a doomed model
<nsh>
i mean, capitalism is stupid in general, but this is a particularly perplexing example
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<nsh>
.ety perplex
<yoleaux>
perplex (v.): "late 14c. as an adjective, "perplexed, puzzled, bewildered," from Latin perplexus "involved, confused, intricate;" but Latin had no corresponding verb *perplectere. The Latin compound would be per "through" (see per) + plexus "entangled," …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=perplex
<frankenmint>
I think the other models allow for gains to be taken from earners
<frankenmint>
which is why all other systems have gradually migrated to captialism
<nsh>
(almost certainly outwith channel scope)
<frankenmint>
the next system volunteerism is still too young and experimental, but I can see it increasing if proven models can indeed transition its users towards a 'utiopia' state
<hulkhogan_>
gime morr cripto
<frankenmint>
hulkhogan_: google DASC reddit, see my answer
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<hulkhogan_>
frankenmint: eh, i think nsh's comment was out of context, the weirdness of 21inc's plan is very left-field given what we know about mining economics
<hulkhogan_>
(unrelated to capitalism etc, its partly or wholly nonsensical)
<hulkhogan_>
s/nonsensical/nonsensical given what we know/
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<frankenmint>
I just dropped by reddit today and now see its everywhere
<frankenmint>
lol, so basically everyone knew from jump about it once they said quallcomm
<frankenmint>
hulkhogan_: really sucks, If it wasn't 'a phone' I may give it a shot, but because its gonna be near my head and asic chips run hot ....forget that
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<hulkhogan_>
yea, lol
<frankenmint>
I could turn this all around right now for them: Make the phones and service free If user agrees to keep them on X hours per month
<frankenmint>
basically once the device 'roi's itself 2x over, then its elegible for an upgrade
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<Taek>
Assuming $30 per user
<Taek>
that scales to ~800k users at todays prices
<frankenmint>
yea right unless we're talking feature phones
<Taek>
beyond that there aren't enough bitcoins that can be mined to pay for so many phone bills
<frankenmint>
well, i guess, if they're free that wont matter???
<frankenmint>
21 inc phone farms to mine passive + btc
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* nsh
frowns
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<hulkhogan_>
they might have a bunch of partnering agreements already, which might also be the reason its more profitable for them to launch a consumer product vs just mine with new chips
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<nsh>
(this is definitely a #bitcoin navel-gazing unless it's somehow inexplicably possible to discuss the actual theoretical advances of this VC moneyhole)
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