Quanttek has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
NkWsy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
NkWsy has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
belcher has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
belcher has joined #bitcoin-wizards
williamdunne has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
williamdunne has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
grandmaster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nullbyte has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
nullbyte has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dasource has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
belcher has quit [Quit: Leaving]
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
Tiraspol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
[7] has quit [Disconnected by services]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nullbyte has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
nullbyte has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nullbyte has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
nullbyte has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nullbyte has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
nullbyte has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nullbyte has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
nullbyte has joined #bitcoin-wizards
larraboj has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Cory has joined #bitcoin-wizards
larraboj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jae_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jae_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Tiraspol3 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jae_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tiraspol3 is now known as Tiraspol
Tiraspol has quit [Changing host]
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jae_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
p15 has quit [Excess Flood]
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arubi_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ebfull has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
arubi_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kmels has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
wallet42 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ebfull has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
hktud0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hktud0 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
p15 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ebfull has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
nullbyte has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
nullbyte has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ebfull has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15 has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Mably has joined #bitcoin-wizards
antanst has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
andy-logbot has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
andy-logbot has joined #bitcoin-wizards
* andy-logbot
is logging
frankenm_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenm_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
b_lumenkraft has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dr-G has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dr-G2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Dr-G2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Dr-G has quit [Disconnected by services]
p15x has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sparetire_ has quit [Quit: sparetire_]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
frankenmint has joined #bitcoin-wizards
helo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
helo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
helo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
helo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
gill3s has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
gill3s has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
Quanttek has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gill3s has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
adam3us has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gill3s has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
d1ggy_ is now known as d1ggy
adam3us has quit [Client Quit]
moa has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
MoALTz_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
LeMiner has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MoALTz has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MoALTz_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
nuke1989 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
wallet42 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
adlai has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
arubi_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
belcher has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
p15 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
adlai has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arubi_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lclc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
p15 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
xenog has joined #bitcoin-wizards
xenog has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
xenog has joined #bitcoin-wizards
xenog has quit [Client Quit]
xenog has joined #bitcoin-wizards
damethos has quit [Quit: Bye]
berndj-blackout is now known as berndj
damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Cory has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Pasha has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mpmcsweeney has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mpmcswee_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mpmcsweeney has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Tiraspol has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Tiraspol has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Pasha is now known as Cory
HostFat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
xenog has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
KuDeTa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
melvster1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
spinza has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kmels has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lclc has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
u7654dec has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards
StephenM347 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ur5edgb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
arubi_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
jae_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jae_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
NkWsy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NkWsy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<Taek>
One of the big things I don't like about merged mining + sidechains is that the security model is much weaker if your chain isn't funding the majority of the mining
<Taek>
And one of the problems with larger blocks is that validating becomes expensive
<Taek>
One of the ways to approach this problem is to have 20 parallel utxo sets in the blockchain
<Taek>
each set permitted 1mb of transactions in each block
<Taek>
and some form of sidechains implementation to move coins between the utxo sets
<Taek>
You end up with 20mb as the maximum blockchain size, but people can now hold all of their coins in only 1 of the 20 sets
arubi_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek>
and then they can validate that set and ignore all of the others
<Taek>
The improvement to merge mining comes in from a new consensus rule
<Taek>
once a valid set of transactions is in a 20mb block, it can't be reorg'd unless you completely reorg the whole system
<Taek>
so, instead of 20 blockchains, it's just 1 blockchain, but with 20 utxo sets
<Taek>
Since you are only validating 1 set, there's a chance that the other sets have invalid transactions
<Taek>
if a block appears that has invalid transactions for your utxo set, you just ignore the transactions for that set
<Taek>
but the block as a whole is still valid
<Taek>
this makes SPV trickier to implement, but I think it's still possible to have SPV nodes (you might need an additional consensus rule about miners committing to which prior blocks have been valid)
<Taek>
There might be a way to improve on everyone needing to d/l the 20mb blocks as well
<zooko>
Hiya Taek! Nice to meet you IRL.
HM has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<Taek>
hey zooko! I enjoyed chatting
<Taek>
The only reason that you need to d/l the whole block is to be certain that none of the data is being withheld
<Taek>
as the security model breaks if someone can hide a valid portion of the chain
HM has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Taek>
Previous discussions with gmaxwell suggest that there might be ways to avoid needing to download the entire 20mb block while still having high certainty that no data is being withheld
antanst1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
antanst1 has quit [Client Quit]
antanst has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
justanotheruser has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
antanst has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
<Taek>
I'm curious if the above idea is something worth putting on the mailing list
dEBRUYNE_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<Luke-Jr>
zooko: so is this a Zerocash softfork? (was Zerocash actually released in some form?)
zooko has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
StephenM347 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dEBRUYNE_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
KuDeTa has quit [Quit: KuDeTa]
gill3s has joined #bitcoin-wizards
StephenM347 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dgenr8 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
dEBRUYNE_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
dgenr8 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kanzure_ is now known as kanzure
dEBRUYNE_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
airbreather has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gill3s has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
<theymos>
Taek: That's a bit like tree chains, isn't it?
helo has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<theymos>
Taek: I'm also not confident that merge-mined sidechains will be particularly useful if any big Bitcoin pool can destroy them at will almost for free.
<kanzure>
well they are giving up the opportunity to mine for other things during that time
<kanzure>
i mean during the time that they are attacking
dEBRUYNE_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
(depending on how weak the target is)
<Taek>
it's not a huge sacrifice though, b/c they are still getting the rewards from the majority chain. It's even more significant if they can merge-mine many chains at once.
<Taek>
then their only opportunity cost is the reward on the chain they are attacking
helo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
they only get the rewards from the majority chain if they are actively mining
<kanzure>
oh merge-mining an attack? hm
<Taek>
right
<Taek>
especially if you're including behaviors like bribes, a coin with a very small reward doesn't require much of a bribe to convince a pool to attack-mine or just not mine.
<Taek>
that ceases to be a problem in my 'merged block' scheme, because reorging any set of transactions requires reorging every set of transactions - you lose out on the rewards of the majority chain as well as the rewards on the minority chain
chmod755 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
adam3us has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<theymos>
Instead of doing PoW on sidechains, I wonder if you could do something like this: After creating a new sidechain block without any PoW, broadcast or mine a transaction on the Bitcoin network with an OP_RETURN output containing some sidechain-identifying leading info and the sidechain block hash. The real next block in the sidechain is the first such transaction listed in a Bitcoin block. The Bit
<theymos>
coin network already keeps track of ordering, so don't allow reorgs on the sidechain without reorgs on the Bitcoin chain.
<Taek>
what is the sidechain identifying leading info? That is very important
<Taek>
If it's just a hash, someone could hide a different reorg in the bitcoin chain, and then reveal it
<Taek>
if there's some identifying prefix, someone could release a prefix followed by a nonsense hash, and you have to figure out how to choose which entries to ignore
dEBRUYNE_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<theymos>
Ah, good point.
<theymos>
Maybe this particular idea doesn't work then, but I feel like if possible it'd be better to do sidechain-type stuff without any additional PoW (including merged mining) by attaching sidechain stuff more tightly to Bitcoin blocks, in this general vein.
jtimon has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet421 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 is now known as Guest69714
wallet421 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guest69714 has quit [Killed (orwell.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))]
<fluffypony>
theymos: that's basically what we're going to do be doing with some of the Monero daughter-chains, no coinbase and more tightly coupled to the mainchain, with nodes being able to advertise what additional chains they serve
<fluffypony>
but then it's less of an "anyone can make a chain!" thing, and more of a "hallowed be thy blessed other-chains"
KuDeTa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has quit [Client Quit]
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
NkWsy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Pan0ram1x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
maraoz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chmod755 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
sparetire_ has quit [Quit: sparetire_]
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NkWsy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
NkWsy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jae_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bosma has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
zooko has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
dEBRUYNE_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Zooko-phone has joined #bitcoin-wizards
b_lumenkraft has quit [Quit: b_lumenkraft]
felipelalli has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
adam3us has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
bosma has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<Luke-Jr>
fluffypony: Monero daughter-chains for Bitcoin, or within Monero?
<Luke-Jr>
theymos: also to consider, what if it's an invalid sidechain block
DrWatto has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
DrWat has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NkWsy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<fluffypony>
Luke-Jr: within Monero
spinza has quit [Excess Flood]
grandmaster has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tcrypt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jae_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
frankenmint has quit []
jae_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NkWsy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
Zooko-phone has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
mpmcswee_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
zooko has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
arubi_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Guyver2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
StephenM347 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
damethos has quit [Quit: Bye]
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Burrito has quit [Quit: Leaving]
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
epscy has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2]
Mably has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
NkWsy has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
antanst has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
StephenM347 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
StephenM347 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
p15x_ has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
KuDeTa has quit [Quit: KuDeTa]
nullbyte has quit [Quit: leaving]
mpmcsweeney has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mpmcswee_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mpmcsweeney has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
NkWsy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mpmcswee_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mpmcsweeney has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moa has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
zooko has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mpmcsweeney has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
moa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GGuyZ has quit [Quit: GGuyZ]
dEBRUYNE_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]