<wpwrak>
that's modules, with realtek chips. realtek are usually friendly, yes
<wpwrak>
these modules could indeed be nice. lacks details, though.
<nicksydney>
the realtek/mediatek chip is not easy to source...can't get it from big wholesaler...only can get from taobao
<wpwrak>
yes, this type of chips is always hard to find. problem is that the big distributors don't seem to like cn/tw chips
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, for some reason
<wpwrak>
naw, if you buy from the factory, you have your supply chain well enough under control
<DocScrutinizer05>
the only way to know what you got there on your palm is to use stuff like xray and excessive testing gear
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, then yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
sometimes
<wpwrak>
digi-key and such could do that. then you're pretty safe. but now you're forced to buy from unknown resellers and get all the risks.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<wpwrak>
i'd view these preferences more an act of protectionism
<DocScrutinizer05>
another problem is mere payment
<wpwrak>
hmm ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, a million copycats in CN demonstrate every day that you got the loser part when it comes to enforcing your rights against someone in CN that ran a scam on you
<DocScrutinizer05>
heck, I'm pondering to *fly over there* just for some 5k of components
<wpwrak>
you could still return home with a bag of bad parts ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
funny thing: seems the chinese feel all the same about their chances to get money from western countries for the goods they ship
<nicksydney>
sometimes the company is good and able to tell you which reseller to buy it from....that's what happened when I was looking for RA8875 and they send me the dsitributor contact to buy it from for overseas mkt
<wpwrak>
and yes, forget enforcement. but that's a cross-border problem anywhere
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, I have zilch problems to sue some idiot in italy or spain or UK when they sell me crap
<wpwrak>
many companies are nice, though, especially chinese. if you complain, they don't just ignore you.
<DocScrutinizer05>
even in USA I guess I have good chances to get any scammer arrested
<wpwrak>
.it and .es are basically slave states to the .eu, where .de is one of the rulers ;-) (not the .de population, though. just your betters.)
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway this international trading is a PITA
<wpwrak>
.us ... good luck :) you may succeed if you put enough effort into it, but i mean, how much do you really want to spend on revenge ?
<wpwrak>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
I evaluated option to get a 300 N900 devices from HK
<DocScrutinizer05>
ouch!
<DocScrutinizer05>
"send 30k EUR, then wait a 3 weeks for your 20 bricks in a cardboard box to arrive"
<DocScrutinizer05>
#s/20 bricks/<whatever junk they thought would be funny in there>/
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: ticket to HK is not expensive nowadays :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then what?
<wpwrak>
first find out where they keep them :) the company may be in .hk but their warehouse can be far far away
<DocScrutinizer05>
"Ders Sir, Madam! We soory inform our sales has suffered delay, please agrre on new meeting in 9 days"
<nicksydney>
i have experience in textile before helping my uncle few years ago....we have to fly to China to look at the goods ourself and we stand there until they pack everything into the container and we went with them to the port until it is released to the custom and then we left :)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: prepare meetings with >1 companies. if one of they bounces you, you just ignore them. chances are very slim that they'll do that to you out of spite.
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: sounds like a good strategy :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly the strategy I planned for the 300 N900
<nicksydney>
HK is easier for shipping as their process are very streamlined compared to China and they are good in helping foreigners nowadays.....don't know how China is now !
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<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: you should also calculate costs with a generous safety margin. so if you get a batch of 100 bad devices, you can absorb the loss
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<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, I'm aware of all that
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's however not as simple when we talk about high priced goods
<DocScrutinizer05>
or large quantities
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: what i've heard, "complex". you also have a whole transport and customs agents mafia involved that probably doesn't want to you hang around
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: get 100 units and indicate that you'll come back for more if you're happy
<wpwrak>
at some point you'll also have to worry about .de customs. e.g., beyond some value the paperwork may get a lot more intense
<DocScrutinizer05>
wow!! I just got an epic err "SPAM"(?)
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually beyond some point the paperwork tends to get more simple
<DocScrutinizer05>
you just do the usual things
<DocScrutinizer05>
(if you're not doing sth unusual)
<wpwrak>
well, once you cross a certain threshold, it reaches peak complexity, but doesn't get much worse after that. correct :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
every day there arrive a few thousands of containers from HK, CN etc at sea harbors in Germany. Quite simple stuff to process them I guess
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<wpwrak>
so it's a pain if you're near the threshold (however it's defined in .de), but after that, importing 10x the stuff is not significantly harder
<DocScrutinizer05>
but you can afford throwing 10 times the effort and expense at it, making it 10 times easier basically
<wpwrak>
no, not really. you don't really gain anything by putting 10 times the effort. you just have to do the bureaucratic procedure. but that's "single-threaded"
<DocScrutinizer05>
the maximum relative hassle been my "import" of a N900 donation, it took me 12.73EUR VAT payment and a whole afternoon proceeding to remote customs office and getting the N900 evaluated and cleared there
<wpwrak>
did you have to contract a customs agent ?
<wpwrak>
(broker)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: nope. The point is: at a certain threshold not *I* do that anymore
<DocScrutinizer05>
no broker. That concept is unknown here in germany
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least on that level of sub-1000g private parcels
<wpwrak>
yes, exactly. the simple process is: you go to customs and do the formalities with them. the complex / general process: you do the (more involved) formalities with your customs broker who then goes to customs and repeats the stuff with them.
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe there are broker services for containers
<wpwrak>
well, maybe you can present the papers yourself. but you still need an intermediary.
<DocScrutinizer05>
nfc
<wpwrak>
e.g., once i brought a few pcs for a demo at a conference from .ch to .de
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh, THAT is hassle
<DocScrutinizer05>
you don't want to import them, just bring them in temporarily
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know that from 1984 when we moved a DELCOM256 video wall computer and monitors to Strasbourg. Took us 4h at frontier to clear the papers
<wpwrak>
for the "temporary import", i had to go to a trading/brokerage (dunno the exact term) company in .ch, get them to prepare the paperwork, then present it on entry, and on exit (not to the friedly guy who asks you if you have something to declare but in a back office, with a wait)
<wpwrak>
yeah, that sort :)
<wpwrak>
for large-scale import/export it's similar
<DocScrutinizer05>
oops, it's not about DELCOM-256, it just mentions it
<DocScrutinizer05>
NMT was a funny time in my professional career
<wpwrak>
whitequa1k: this has tldr potential :) he seems to be heading in the direction of "what's unfamiliar and implicitly adverse makes us uncomfortable", isn't he ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
(large scale import) 300 units don't usually qualify for that (unless it's 300 cars or sth like that)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
300 N900 devices for sure are exactly in between, where you can ruin yourself when shit hits the fan, but not large enaough yet to get into "the comfort zone of large scale"
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe I could order door-to-door service from seller ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
let *them* fly here, instead of me flying to CN
<whitequa1k>
wpwrak: no, not at all
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: dream on ! ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know African dope dealers offer such service ;-P
<whitequa1k>
tl;dr could be something like "we can only sensibly define consciousness as a process participating in the arrow of time"
<whitequa1k>
i.e. an "uploaded" mind is not actually conscious
<wpwrak>
you mean uploaded + stored, but not "running" ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I stopped reading 5 words after the big red warning
<DocScrutinizer05>
tl;dr especially for a joke
<whitequa1k>
DocScrutinizer05: it's not a joke.
<whitequa1k>
the warning is for excessively pedantic people who want everything defined with 100% rigor
<DocScrutinizer05>
then i'm sorry for the guy, he managed to waste my and his time
<whitequa1k>
the text is serious and way more interesting than some of the supposedly scientific material on topic (e.g. IIT)