<wpwrak>
the DS1000Z also has segments, but weaker and optional (so its price either jumps in a higher category or you have to hack it)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: thanks for this useful link to the comparison video. It's absolutely clear now that siglent is unusable
<DocScrutinizer05>
slightly better hw (except for the UI aka knobs) but terrible firmware
<wpwrak>
;-) seems that rigol had similar problems when the ds2000 came out. the big problem with the ds2000 is the 2 channels limit. else it would be perfect.
<DocScrutinizer05>
as already elaborated upon, I'm way more happy with 2ch-A+16ch-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
you hardly ever need *analog* recording/watch of more than 2 signals, when you can watch a 16 signals on logical level in parallel and even trigger on them
<DocScrutinizer05>
the waveforms/s capture rate of siglent is sometimes abysmal. The 30min dial-wanking to move form frame 1 to frame 80000 is plain ridiculous. The analysis + playback of history is useless on just one speed and incredibly slow analysis
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the two turn knobs in close vicinity are an absolute killer on top of the dial-wanking
<wpwrak>
i suppose our experiences diverge there. i had (have) 2A+16D and find myself longing for 4A. i could imagine adding some D to the A, though, if they're nicely made.
<wpwrak>
i expect the dial-wanking to go away as firmware improves. in a way, neither gets it quite right. the analysis mode of rigol is nice, but why not just merge segments and greyscale them ? then one could see a large bundle with each screen.
<DocScrutinizer05>
umm, maybe I don't get it yet, but aiui each segment/frame has its own trigger and they are not supposed to be consecutive/gapless in time domain
<wpwrak>
waveforms of siglent are okay in the ranges that most matter. in ones where it drops badly you're basically just magnifying the interpolation anyway
<wpwrak>
correct
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, you got me wrong I guess
<DocScrutinizer05>
lemme try to find the right timecode
<wpwrak>
so i'd overlay frame #0 with frame #1, etc., through frame #n. each with trigger point at the same position. then divide brightness by n
<wpwrak>
so "zoom" would not be on the time axis (though rigol seem to do that, which looks odd even if it may be convenient) but on the number of waveforms that make up one screen
<wpwrak>
it's the same as intensity grading in normal operation: there you also have multiple waveforms visible at the same time
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not buying anything ever based on "hoping that they will fix this issue eventually"
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
an open source scope would be great for that. there, you'd have certainty, not hope :)
<wpwrak>
"it will be fixed. and if i have to do it myself." :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
*maybe* when *I* could fix it
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's why I insist on comprehensive remote control option
<DocScrutinizer05>
it *might* be possible to "fix" the siglent on that level
<DocScrutinizer05>
39:00
<wpwrak>
that's not the same. yes, you can work around some limitations, but there's a huge convenience penalty
<DocScrutinizer05>
also a killer, and start of analysis mode I mentioned (iirc)
<wpwrak>
well, let's see how siglent proceed with those things. i'm not buying a new scope these days anyway, so i have time :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
waterfall mode in siglent is what you asked for above, no?
<DocScrutinizer05>
40:50
<DocScrutinizer05>
41:50 !! No analysis mode in siglent
<wpwrak>
waterfall mode seems to have an offset, so it shows wave #0 at horizontal 0, wave #1 at -1 div, wave #2 at -2 div, etc.
<DocScrutinizer05>
42:55 s/"minutes and minutes"/"hours and days"/
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, overlay is the version without offset
<DocScrutinizer05>
all the way up to 44:00 has a clear statement that siglent is useless for a dso, since the most important feature is flawed to oblivion
<DocScrutinizer05>
no use in recording a 20mio points when you can't analyze/search them for that glitch you're looking for
<wpwrak>
(overlay mode) yes, but the step size of 20 should be variable
<DocScrutinizer05>
44:40 is about where it shows the difference between rigol and siglent regarding this
<wpwrak>
(recording) you could proabably download them to a PC :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
then I don't need all that sophisticated stuff in scope at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
also the mere ergonomics of placing the menu softkeys above the 4 BNC for the probes is already giving my wrist aches from just watching this guy operating those
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<DocScrutinizer05>
50:38 :-S
<wpwrak>
dunno. i have my scope on a shelf and the bncs are right under the main controls. not a problem.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
"I first have to *stop* the scope, then I can move around and manipulate the timebase..."
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, we don't actually need to discuss siglent any longer
<DocScrutinizer05>
rigol it is, MSO2102A
<DocScrutinizer05>
siglent is a poor man's knockoff of rigol
<DocScrutinizer05>
years behind in maturity, firmware and UX wise
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't need 4chan that are useless
<DocScrutinizer05>
when for same money I can get 2chan that work the way they are supposed to
<whitequark>
yeah, siglent is kinda crap
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>But most disappointing to me was the lack of any meaningful ability to navigate the huge sample sets that the unit is capable of capturing. Whether in Frame mode or History mode, it can collect more data than you could ever do anything useful with. Which is a real shame, since it basically negates a very powerful feature. It's bad enough that there is no quick access mechanism, just slow knob twiddling, but that's compounded by
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, as I already said that's the ultimative knock out criterion
<DocScrutinizer05>
(buttons spaced to tight)
<wpwrak>
(post) yeah, planting the idea of open source. you never know when and where it may bear fruits :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
while it could get some stopgap fix by disabling the other (trigger) button during rotating the left one, to avoid "stealing focus", it still is a mech UI inconvenience that I don't see myself to get used to
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-D @ FOSS
<wpwrak>
(knob spacing) it does look like a bad flaw. well, maybe after a while you get used to it. for most usability problems it's hard to predict whether they will still bother you after a few weeks of regular use. sometimes even nasty stuff just "disappears". on the other hand, some annoyances annoy forever ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
and it seems siglent hasn't even disclosed/published the SCPI(?) specs/docs
<DocScrutinizer05>
so my approach for a fix by midi tablet would fail as well
* DocScrutinizer05
afk, having a look if Nue changed
<DocScrutinizer05>
also enjoying own shower, nothing better in the world really
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/
<wpwrak>
they seem to be busy writing that document. they've already "pre-announced" to their distributors (who then of course post about it in eevblog :)
<wpwrak>
what puzzles me is that i can't find the programming document for the sds1000 series. that one ought be be around and would provide clues of what the sds2000 will be able to do.
<wpwrak>
of course, you have to be careful with such things. there are often weird little bugs and crippling misfeatures. also ran into such things in high-end scopes from tek and agilent.
<wpwrak>
(high-end) the USD 10k+ type
<DocScrutinizer05>
the only thing that can help on that is an agile responsive customer service
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas this type of service is more likely to be found on very small companies, not on the expensive huge ones. Usually
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway thanks to today's discussion my idea about Rigol changed, till yesterday it had a certain russian army "takes sledgehammer to make it work" appeal to me
<DocScrutinizer05>
that changed completely
<wpwrak>
naw, rigol is a solid company. i think they started as makers of lower-end agilent, then began using their own brand
<DocScrutinizer05>
now somehow siglent inherited that stigma
<wpwrak>
yes, they're a few years behind rigol in profile development. they do look like the next chinese scope company to make it out of the "china crap" swamp, though.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wonder how reasonable it would be to speculate on hacks/cracks to enable features like enhanced triggering and stuff in a MSO2102A
<wpwrak>
there's a thread on that, too ... ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, but...
<DocScrutinizer05>
a huuuge field to grok it all
<wpwrak>
a bit ugly for the ds2000a series, though. like retrieve old fw, patch it, send it back. in the ds1000z it's just a code you have to enter.
<wpwrak>
and i don't think they cracked the mso2000a yet. it's just a few weeks on the market.
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g. would a DS2102A be capable of MSO aka LA, just with a key to unlock?
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly not
<wpwrak>
if it has the connectors, yes :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
they even might be mechanically different
<wpwrak>
but it seems that rigol are keeping the two apart
<wpwrak>
unlike siglent, which seem to include MSO also in their DSOs. though without connectivity kit. so it's not entirely a software-only change.
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<wpwrak>
it also shows in the time: took rigol about 2 years to go from DS2000 (via DS2000A) to MSO2000A
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly it's also not really "fair" to buy a cheap model, hack it, then complain about stuff not working as expected
<wpwrak>
siglent are now beginning to market the MSO capability, merely half a year after introducing the scope
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wonder if a AWG is worth it
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly not, rather you'd want a LA-reversed
<wpwrak>
one of my more stupid purchases was a function generator (with AWG and such). i hardly ever use it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
so the thng could actually do tricks like "speak I2C"
<wpwrak>
it can actually do LA-reversed, too. but then, so can, say, a Ben ...
<wpwrak>
and the Ben can respond to what's coming back ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
it would for sure need some *logic* for such trickery
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<DocScrutinizer05>
not only braindead playback of a pattern
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh! will ponder getting me a MSO2102A, while thought float during taking a shower
<DocScrutinizer05>
bbl
<wpwrak>
enjoy ! :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure will
<DocScrutinizer05>
the standards in Spain are... not comparable
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g. I couldn't even figure how a 24kW water heater would get installed down there
<DocScrutinizer05>
would prolly cause Barbate go blackout
<DocScrutinizer05>
(j/k, not really. But actually electricity installations are kinda scary _still_)
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/
<wpwrak>
maybe they use gas ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup, they do
<wpwrak>
but yes, in places with a warmer climate, heating equipment is often at a surprisingly poor level. e.g., you'll be much warmer in winter in switzerland than in argentina, even if the outside temperature is 15 deg lower in .ch
<wpwrak>
heating water with gas works fine. i have one such critter. no complaints. and, unlike a boiler, you have an infinite reserve :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
in a heater sized ~50*30*20 mounted tightly into a wooden kitchen cabinet of exactly same size :-o
<DocScrutinizer05>
with door
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least they left out the bottom to give the thing some air to breathe, from below
<wpwrak>
25 x 40 x 75 cm here :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
fed by a 20L propane bottle that sitts inder the kitchen sink
<wpwrak>
yuck
<wpwrak>
these are dangerous
<DocScrutinizer05>
(50*30*20) the ones with the almost egg-shaped rounded corners
<DocScrutinizer05>
the ignition flame always is "open", not bimetal safety device opening only while heated or pushbutton pressed - WAAAAH! Duck and cover!
* DocScrutinizer05
wonders if such safety mechanisms are mandatory in Germany only
<wpwrak>
the "pilot" flame is a standard feature in this type of device
<wpwrak>
there are better ones with electric ignition but the gas-only type needs a pilot
<DocScrutinizer05>
err wut? I'm talking about switching it off when it's already off. By sensing heat and stopping gas flow when no heat
<wpwrak>
yes, then you'd need some sort of bypass valve
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have that on virtually every gas flame no matter where, here
<DocScrutinizer05>
bypass valve?
<wpwrak>
to turn it on. it has to be able to automatically turn on. so if you cut the gas when it's cold, you need to bypass the cutoff to turn on
<wpwrak>
btw, ovens are different. there, you just hold the button until the bimetal is hot enough
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually those things work with a thermocouple that actually provides enough current to magnetize an e-magnet consisting of some 20 windings of 1.5mm dia copper wire, and you push the steel plate to the magnet maually by pushing a button and thus opening the valve. When thermocouple heats up, the steel plate sticks to magnet
<wpwrak>
so that's an electric model. they can be more complex, yes. but we're talking about the basic gas-only ones, aren't we ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
on water heaters it works exactly same way like oven, just for the pilot flame
<wpwrak>
e.g., if electric, you don't need a pilot flame at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's no electricity fed to that type of security device
<DocScrutinizer05>
it consists of a thermocouple, a coaxial (dunno why) wire from couple to magnet, and the magnet coil. That's it
<DocScrutinizer05>
the thermocouple seems capable to provide some maybe 0.2V@3A or whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>erzeut der Thermofühler eine 40 mV Spannung und einen Strom von ca. 10 mA<< o.O
<DocScrutinizer05>
(coaxial) maybe for safety reasons, so nothing could induce a current into it
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually you press a pushbutton which moves the steel plate against the magnet and thus opens the pilot flame's (actually the whole device's) gas valve, and same time the pushed button closes a valve for main flame, defeating huge amounts of gas coming out the thing when pushing button while water flows and pilot flame not burning
<DocScrutinizer05>
then you ignite the pilot flame and wait until it heated the thermocouple, before you release the pushbutton and thus the device enters "normal operation mode"
<DocScrutinizer05>
no such pushbutton on the spanish water heater
<DocScrutinizer05>
which I guess is highly illegal even for Spain
<DocScrutinizer05>
I mean you don't want the gas even for pilot flame coming out of device for hours or days, right?
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<apelete>
Hi larsc, you there ?
<pcercuei>
larsc, how many MSPS can the FM-Comms 4/5 push?
<larsc>
54MHz is the analog bandwidth limit
<larsc>
the digital interface can do more
<larsc>
but there is really no point
<larsc>
FMCOMMS4 is one I/Q channel, FMCOMMS5 is 4 I/Q channels
<pcercuei>
so 54 MSPS for 4*2 channels in parallel?
<larsc>
yes, on each channel
<larsc>
so 54*4*2*2 bytes/second
<pcercuei>
that's not much :p
<larsc>
I think it is 56MHz actually
<pcercuei>
so that would be around 864 MiB/s max
<larsc>
MB/s
<pcercuei>
ok, thanks
<apelete>
larsc: I'm modifying dma-jz4740.c to make it work with jz4770
<apelete>
<apelete>
since there is no device tree support for jz4740, what's the best way to know which of jz4740 or jz4770 is using the dma-jz4740.c driver ?
<pcercuei>
use an ID; see our watchdog driver
<apelete>
I thought about using a platform_devic_id struct indeed, and came up with something like this: http://paste.debian.net/117277/
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<apelete>
pcercuei: ah, same trick is used in watchdog driver, would have save me some trouble if I knew :-)
<larsc>
yes, that's the way to go
<apelete>
pcercuei larsc: ok, thanks
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