DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
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<whitequark> this is incredibly impressive: 16-channel MIDI on a dot matrix printer: http://vimeo.com/58200103
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<nicksydney_> wpwrak_: what symbol is this http://ctrlv.in/297605 ?
<nicksydney_> in the qi-hardware kicad library
<wpwrak_> that's a switch. but it doesn't look like any we have. maybe the top and bottom connections are case / shield
<nicksydney_> that's from eagle and was wondering if we have something similar in kicad
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<wpwrak_> SW4 is relatively similar. has four contacts, though (each side goes to two contacts)
<wpwrak_> then we have SW-SPDT which is an ON-ON switch. the ON-OFF type is a bit less common nowadays because it's often just as much work to make an ON-ON switch instead
<wpwrak_> we also have SW-SPDT-S4, which is SW-SPDT plus four shell connections
<wpwrak_> if you want tacts switches, we have SW_PUSH and FSMRA2JH (contact plus two shell contacts)
<wpwrak_> i think that's all the switches we have at the moment
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<nicksydney_> i think will go with SW_PUSH
<nicksydney_> wpwrak_: this kind of inductor http://ctrlv.in/297630 we don't have but something different right ?
<wpwrak_> we have an inductor with just two terminals
<nicksydney_> wpwrak_: this one http://ctrlv.in/297637
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<nicksydney> wpwrak_: this Balun configuration doesn't look correct ( http://ctrlv.in/297644 ) or I'm not correct...the pin 5 is to GND while there is a label 6 connect to GND too ? doesn't seems right
<wpwrak_> there's also INDUCTOR, without the box
<wpwrak_> not too uncommon to have multiple ground connections
<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: "U6"?
<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: sounds like an active component
<wpwrak_> what U6 ?
<DocScrutinizer05> like: solid state relay
<DocScrutinizer05> http://ctrlv.in/297605
<wpwrak_> ah, that. well, could be. maybe there's more to it than meets the eye :) in which case there should be some label that tells you want chip it is
<wpwrak_> #s/want/what/
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
<DocScrutinizer05> missing context, literally
<wpwrak_> or maybe the person who picked the component reference U6 just had a strange sense of humor ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> in the end a schematics and the symbols used are way less of any "standard" than you might have expected
<DocScrutinizer05> it's more like an art, with some commonly accepted styles based on common sense
<whitequark> I'd like to watch cubist schematics
<whitequark> er, look at
<whitequark> or postmodernist
<wpwrak_> the schematics you can actually watch may even be more fun :)
<whitequark> wpwrak_: take LSD and stare on schematics for, say, motherboard ?
<nicksydney> was looking around for to learn more about Balun configuration in schematics
<whitequark> "everything is connected"
<wpwrak_> whitequark: yeah, something along these lines :)
* whitequark has learned an important thing today, the warnings against cleaning laser printers with flammable substances are there for a very good reason
<whitequark> also it still works, that is after I've removed smouldering paper out of it
<nicksydney> the switch is labelled as U6 on the left sidwe
<nicksydney> wpwrak_: why balun need to have 2 track running from Pin 5 of the Balun to GND...thought 1 should be enough ?
<wpwrak_> nicksydney: are you sure it's two separate traces in the layout ?
<wpwrak_> whitequark: well, if you clean your printer with flammables, at least make sure they have plenty of time to evaporate into the surroundings :)
<nicksydney> looking at the schematics isn't it ?
<nicksydney> oh hang on..there is pin5 and 6
<nicksydney> need to zoom in to see that properly ;)
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<whitequark> wpwrak_: forgot to turn it off
<whitequark> rather I *thought* it was turned off
<whitequark> but it wasn't, and the air stream tripped some switch or somesuch
<whitequark> resulting in quite entertaining picture with flames erupting out of every hole
<wpwrak_> ;-)
<wpwrak_> the fact is that it's not because of russian customs that electronic toys don't reach you. what really happens is that they fight all the way against being shipped once they find out you're their destination :)
<whitequark> lol
<whitequark> but, so far all the toys have reached me easily!
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<DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: (galden test) I still can spot some liquid moving along the "corner" of the glass, when tilting and spinning it
<DocScrutinizer05> soon it will be too spread over the glass surface to spot it anymore
* DocScrutinizer05 wonders what's with https://github.com/Pinoccio/pinoccio-hardware-reference/blob/master/pdf/pinoccio-sch-v0.13.pdf - looks rather normal and boring. A bit too "eagle-y", I honestly despise that style
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<DocScrutinizer05> it always looks a bit like a mixture between school first class "I learn to write AAAAA BBBBB..." and a strange reminiscence to windows2.x resp DOS
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe Hercules gfx
<wpwrak_> use kicad :)
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<whitequark> heh. now twitter suggests me to follow almost exclusively heise-related accounts, and google puts the first link to a german page like third of the time
<whitequark> it's quite creepy
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<whitequark> ooh, my hotbed magnetic stirrer has arrived
<DocScrutinizer05> magnetic stirrer, doesn't sound particularly useful for electronics purposes. Rather an equipment for chemical lab
<whitequark> sure
<DocScrutinizer05> but hey, maybe makes for a geeky teapot warmer with automatic stirring. Ideal for rock sugar ;-)
<whitequark> I've got it for etching and preparing other solutions
<whitequark> mainly for etching though. remember our discussion?
<DocScrutinizer05> ooh, for preparing solutions it's for sure convenient
<whitequark> exactly
<DocScrutinizer05> sure I remember
<DocScrutinizer05> :-D
<whitequark> hrm. temperature not adjustable... fixed at 100°C
<DocScrutinizer05> thought I been able to convince you not to waste money on that
<DocScrutinizer05> ouch
<whitequark> ouch indeed
<DocScrutinizer05> so not even useful for teapots
<whitequark> well, I'm pretty sure it's adjustable with a spare resistor or something
<whitequark> :D
<DocScrutinizer05> who knows
<DocScrutinizer05> I've seen room heater fans where the fan motor been on a resistive voltage divider built from the heating err wires
<DocScrutinizer05> extremely nasty and scary design
<whitequark> ugh
<whitequark> wow, it is so extermely... soviet in design
<whitequark> manually soldered lm317 with legs bent *sideways*
<whitequark> no, I should just take a photo of this
<whitequark> that's basically all it has
<whitequark> actually I don't think it is thermoregulated *at all*
<whitequark> also note the chipped "PCB"
<whitequark> it's not even FR4, it looks more like cardboard
<whitequark> no mask, flux all over... hrm
<whitequark> yep. there is absolutely zilch thermoregulation measures. it's just a nichrome wire plugged right into mains
<whitequark> WTF I even bought
<DocScrutinizer05> imgut down
<DocScrutinizer05> >>Imgur is over capacity!
<DocScrutinizer05> Sorry! We're busy running around with our hair on fire because Imgur is over capacity! <<
<whitequark> f5 it
<DocScrutinizer05> wow, it worked
<DocScrutinizer05> cool russian design, pretty futuristic
<DocScrutinizer05> ;-P
<whitequark> if by "futuristic" you mean "from the age where word 'futuristic' was cool beans"
<whitequark> then yes :D
<DocScrutinizer05> I'm amazed they wasted a second mount post for the PCB
<wpwrak_> lovely FR2, too. very smoothly broken. made at "angry ivan fabs" ?
<DocScrutinizer05> rotfl
<whitequark> wpwrak_: yeah, locally made
<wpwrak_> (cardboard) well, that's what FR2 basically is :)
<whitequark> I should've known better
<whitequark> "made in russia" is the biggest ever warning flag you can see
<DocScrutinizer05> depends
<larsc> 'made in germany' was meant as one as well
<DocScrutinizer05> on tanks and other heavy steel stuff it's not all that bad
<wpwrak_> you need those tanks if yo8u have that sort of equipment in your lab ...
<whitequark> well... AK-74 is pretty good
<DocScrutinizer05> I had a multimeter from USSR, came in a nice steel mini suitcase
<DocScrutinizer05> and wasn't completely useless
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: have you got a hernia from it?
<DocScrutinizer05> nope, it was "small"
<whitequark> larsc: I dunno, here "germany" = "quality" pretty much
<whitequark> there's even an idiom, "exemplary german quality"
<whitequark> and "exemplary german order"
<DocScrutinizer05> I used the suitcase later on to pack a 10Ah bike battery into it and connect that to a selfmade 50W flood lamp
<DocScrutinizer05> made from a car fog light
<whitequark> I see why you put "small" in quotes
<whitequark> did you mean "it was somewhat smaller than a tank" ?
<larsc> whitequark: but it was introduced as a warning sign in GB after the war
<larsc> it turned on them quite quickly though
<DocScrutinizer05> well, yes. That's about the right description
<larsc> ok, not after the war
<whitequark> hmm weird. there's a few patches left on board, which basically don't want to etch
<DocScrutinizer05> I had a tiny bench vise made in USSR, which been extremely cheap (some 5 deutschmarks) and worked fine, despite the whole thing been covered by filler paste to get it in shape prior to painting it in usual metallic blue
<whitequark> most of the copper thickness was removed, so it's not surface thing
<DocScrutinizer05> o.O
<whitequark> seems kinda like crystals if you look at it at an angle. you know, like zincified steel
<whitequark> this kind of reflection
<DocScrutinizer05> copper impurities?
<whitequark> and it just sits there for 10 minutes already and doesn't etch, despite all other parts etched fine
<whitequark> well idfk
<DocScrutinizer05> weird
* wpwrak_ wonders how much longer until you give in and get the HCl ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> russian product?
<wpwrak_> russian chemistry. probably too radioactive. disturbs the chemistry :)
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: nope, MGChemicals
<whitequark> ... same guys who sold me that shitty printer film
<DocScrutinizer05> I mean the PCB
<whitequark> exacrly
<whitequark> *exactly
<whitequark> etchant is russian
<DocScrutinizer05> ooh
<wpwrak_> *giggle*
<whitequark> wpwrak_: what?
<DocScrutinizer05> they seem to be experts in fake sub-par quality stuff
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: I even scratched that copper and... newsflash... NOTHING HAPPENS
<whitequark> like it just sits there with a scratch
<wpwrak_> "etchant is russian" that explains it :)
<whitequark> how on earth scratched copper in etching solution is not etching
<DocScrutinizer05> well, when it's no copper
<DocScrutinizer05> simple as that
<whitequark> ok, it's definitely not going to etch
<whitequark> lemme just throw another chunk of PCB there, even without resist
<DocScrutinizer05> make MGChemicals eat it!
<whitequark> I should leave another angry Amazon review
<wpwrak_> maye sure you scrub off the oxides first
<DocScrutinizer05> err, depending on etching fluid you usually don't need to worry about oxides
<whitequark> wpwrak_: I didn't do that and it etches just fine
<wpwrak_> yes, but since it already acts kinda weird in that role, i'd try to even the odds
<DocScrutinizer05> it's rather like etching fluid is like very strong flux
<wpwrak_> ah, good. maybe the other one just had some odd contamination.
<DocScrutinizer05> impurity, told ya
<whitequark> wpwrak_: no, I mean at surface
<whitequark> the other one was just fine at the surface as well
<whitequark> it's just at the end of etching where the devil hides
<wpwrak_> with toner transfer, some adhesive residue is often the culprit if something just doesn't want to etch
<DocScrutinizer05> some bored worker threw his snack wrapper paper on the copper bar before it gone thru the roles thinning it
<wpwrak_> well, etching is always at the surface. if it's not exposed, it won't get etched :)
<whitequark> oooh wait, interesting effect
<wpwrak_> now comes the cold fusion
* wpwrak_ turns on CNN
<whitequark> I think I figured it out
<whitequark> the etchant is too concentrated
<DocScrutinizer05> or even a beer bottle lid
<larsc> the cold fusion?
<DocScrutinizer05> LOL
<whitequark> in fact it is concentrated enough that when I place a board in it, the etchant *crystallizes on the board*
<wpwrak_> quick, describe it before the radiation kills you
<whitequark> literally, there appear hard white crystals on the surface
<whitequark> obviously preventing any more access to the copper
<DocScrutinizer05> that's kinda same effect as with acid in steel tank
<DocScrutinizer05> old news
<whitequark> and if I wash it under tap water, they just wash away, meaning they're water-soluble
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: passivation is a different effect
<whitequark> but I see what you mean
<DocScrutinizer05> slightly
<DocScrutinizer05> the copper salt created from copper and etchant still needs to be able to solve in the liquid
<DocScrutinizer05> in a saturated solution this will probably fail
<DocScrutinizer05> btw you're not supposed to use 99% alcohol for desinfection. Kinda for same reasons
<DocScrutinizer05> bacteria just dehydrate and survive
<whitequark> oooh you're right
<whitequark> could be CuSO4
<whitequark> instead of etchant
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<whitequark> or even a mixture of both
<whitequark> it surely looks like copper crystals...
<wpwrak_> with HCl + H2O2, you can tell simply by the color if the chemistry is right :)
<whitequark> "if your face is blue, you're doing it just right?
<wpwrak_> (-:C
<whitequark> anyway, failboard: http://imgur.com/SKMWPU6,WZhM5ql
<DocScrutinizer05> LOL
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: hmm?
<DocScrutinizer05> shit happens
<whitequark> yeah it is rather horrible
<DocScrutinizer05> but interesting
<whitequark> yeah, do you see those 'crystals'?
<whitequark> they're much more evident in person
<whitequark> like it has very characteristic alternating-matte-and-gloss surface of zinc coatings
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: on a second thought I think you're exactly right about passivation
<whitequark> if the copper was covered by reaction product = CuSO4 this is exactly what passivation is
<whitequark> same as in oxide case
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<whitequark> I should write a note about all this crap
<wpwrak_> so 100 um traces are about where you should stop. maybe even 150 um, to have a bit of a margin. not too shabby.
<whitequark> wpwrak_: keep in mind it's ridiculously overetched
<whitequark> it was in solution at least 2x longer than it should have been
<wpwrak_> sure. but it's also good to have a bit of a reserve
<whitequark> in fact for 100µm and 50µm resist simply detached from traces
<wpwrak_> besides, you probably won't use any components that needs that fine traces anyway ;-)
<whitequark> that's true too
<whitequark> oh and it's not actually 50µm and 100µm. printer has screwed up.
<whitequark> so it's just a pile of various screwups :)
<DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: you should read his fine "paper"
<wpwrak_> so how much is it ?
<DocScrutinizer05> and watch the awesome test PCBs there
<whitequark> wpwrak_: let's measure. the pcb is 32mm wide.
<DocScrutinizer05> pretty much to the resolution of the resist
<DocScrutinizer05> don't bother, that's futile effort
<whitequark> wpwrak_: think DocScrutinizer05 means this: http://lab.whitequark.org/notes/2014-02-16/optimizing-for-best-photoresist-adhesion/
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: why?
<whitequark> I'm going to measure it by looking at photo in GIMP
<DocScrutinizer05> what do you learn from measuring trace width on that messed up board?
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> you're right actually
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, that one
<DocScrutinizer05> you can learn form TAHT
<DocScrutinizer05> not his horror PCB
<DocScrutinizer05> a piece of artwork
<whitequark> glad you like it :D
<DocScrutinizer05> I'd say 0.10 has already plenty of safety margin
<DocScrutinizer05> though for a true test you'd have to chech trace pitch, not trace width
<DocScrutinizer05> check*
<DocScrutinizer05> like 5 lines plus 5 gaps on 1mm
<whitequark> right... could make that test too
<whitequark> o/ sleep
<DocScrutinizer05> you got very weird sleep schedule
<DocScrutinizer05> says the guy living his 30h day in JRTZV
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<larsc> thanks to all the ESD in the lab I don't even have to touch the reset button anymore to reset the board
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<wpwrak> larsc: ask them to open a lab in buenos aires. more than enough relative humidity to never have to worry about ESD ;-)
<larsc> I asked to be transferred to austraila for the winter months here in germany
<larsc> that request got declined
<larsc> not sure if bunenos aires will work
<wpwrak> it's much closer than .au :)
<wpwrak> or maybe brazil. rio also has a nice and humid climate :)
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<pcercuei> I'd totally go to Buenos Aires
<larsc> the problem is to get approval
<pcercuei> quit your job ;)
<wpwrak> pcercuei: any hand to kick to get the KK out would be welcome ;-)
<pcercuei> KK?
<wpwrak> Kirchneristas, affectionally called KK, pronounced ka-ka, ...
<pcercuei> it's a political party?
<pcercuei> anyway. off to get a beer :p
<pcercuei> or eight
* pcercuei afk
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