<wpwrak>
hm, but maybe i could use this as substitute ? ACIDO FOSFORICO 85% FG
<whitequark>
no
<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
I always wanted to do this, so, let's develop a new process with more commonly occuring reagents
<wpwrak>
and they also have HF. let's have a party ;-)
<whitequark>
I'll poke my friends who know chemistry
<whitequark>
shouldn't be too hard; you just need a copper salt and a reducing agent
<whitequark>
I bet there are hundreds of combinations which would work.
<whitequark>
I don't want to have my analytical chemistry course go to waste :p
<whitequark>
it was awesome and I got straight A... though I since forgot it almost entirely
<wpwrak>
yeah, i was doing well in chemistry, too, even though i didn't really "grok" some parts of it. but that wasn't needed to solve the exams :) alas, too many years of not using any of it ...
<whitequark>
it'll also probably give me some cred in US, because hypophosphite is in DEA Schedule I there
<whitequark>
for some absurd reason, likely just bureaucracy failure
<wpwrak>
ah, they would explain why i didn't find it
<whitequark>
does US influence AR that much?
<wpwrak>
#s/they/that/
luke-jr_ is now known as Luke-Jr
<whitequark>
I thought they were a bit at odds
<wpwrak>
well, if one day run out of stupid ideas of their own, why not copy from someone else
<whitequark>
hahaha
<wpwrak>
there's a bit of a love-hate relationship
<whitequark>
apparently, you can make meth with it
<wpwrak>
bah, sell the kids paint thinner to sniff ...
<wpwrak>
copper salt .. seems that Copper(II) sulfate is the only one i can easily find
<wpwrak>
they list it under "ALIMENTACION ANIMAL"
<wpwrak>
well, considering that it's used as a whatever-cide, perhaps there some sort of truth in this ..
<whitequark>
wpwrak: that's what you need, yes
<whitequark>
pretty standard thing
<whitequark>
could also get battery acid and dissolve copper in it.
<wpwrak>
reacts with iron
<whitequark>
in fact, that's likely to lead to better quality reagent, since that whatever-cide may well be dirty
<whitequark>
(reacts with iron) mmm yes, a redox reaction. fe displaces cu from solution
<wpwrak>
naw, that's a chemicals shop. i think they sell clean stuff
<whitequark>
ah, excellent.
<whitequark>
you don't need very high grade stuff, just reasonably pure.
<whitequark>
Because hypophosphorous acid can reduce elemental iodine to form hydroiodic acid, which is a reagent effective for reducing ephedrine or pseudoephedrine to methamphetamine,[5] the United States Drug Enforcement Administration designated hypophosphorous acid (and its salts) as a List I precursor chemical effective November 16, 2001.
<whitequark>
argh, what an idiotic regulation
<whitequark>
you can't easily synthesize it either, because P4 (white/red phosphor; precursor) is also Schedule I substance
<whitequark>
what are other methods to make it... hm
<whitequark>
oxidation of phosphine. thank you but no
<wpwrak>
phosgene ? :)
<whitequark>
phosphine. it's slightly less toxic.
<whitequark>
PH3
<whitequark>
spontaneously flammable in air
<wpwrak>
sounds useful for the party
<whitequark>
let's search JACS
<wpwrak>
some fireworks before the cups of FOOF go around
<whitequark>
hm. no relevant hits. wonder if they filter papers on synthesizing DEA-listed substances
<wpwrak>
Copper sulfate can cause conjunctivitis. oh joy. it's been almost a year since my last one (which was the first ever and something i'm in no hurry of repeating)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: presumably if you are using it as an aerosol insecticide
<whitequark>
just wear eye protection, as you should, and you'll be fine -- you shouldn't normally even touch the bath
<whitequark>
much less get it in your eyes
<wpwrak>
you should make friends in your local underground techno scene. let the dealers that usually hang around at such places know you know some things about chemistry. work your way up in the organization until you get at the formulas ;-)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: lol, HPA is legal in RU. I just ordered 0.4kg of it
<whitequark>
why would anyone synthesize stuff they can buy for $10/kg?
<wpwrak>
HPA ? Harry Potter Alliance ?
<whitequark>
hypophosporous acid
<wpwrak>
ah :)
<whitequark>
also, neither I2 or HI is controlled substance here as well
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<whitequark>
hm... so HPA is a really powerful reducing agent. meaning to synthesize it out of H3PO4 say you'd need an even more powerful one
<whitequark>
which are not easy to come by :/
<whitequark>
also means HPA is not easily replaced in this electroplating process
<whitequark>
aha, found someone's thesis on synthesizing it in a lab
<wpwrak>
interesting. xchat's spell checker doesn't even know that "neutralino" exists :)
<whitequark>
nice, apparently L-ascorbic acid can do this perfectly
<wpwrak>
i'm looking forward to hear about your results ;-)
<wpwrak>
or read about them, depends on which way the reactions go :)
<whitequark>
hehehe
<whitequark>
okay, "the temperature of the mixture was kept at 100°C for several hours"
<whitequark>
that's a bit disconcerting
<wpwrak>
under how many GPa ?
<whitequark>
1 atm
<whitequark>
hm, glyoxylic acid...
<whitequark>
oooh, you can do it with just formaldehyde apparently
<whitequark>
cool. room temp and pressure. this may be the best reaction so far
<wpwrak>
oh, excellent. kl26 has massively improved gpios compared to kl25
<wpwrak>
can switch pull-up or -down, and has 8 more interrupt-capable gpios (3/5 banks vs. 2/5 in the kl25)
<whitequark>
I know, screw all that. I'll write my analytical chemistry professor
<wpwrak>
yeah, i think that's better :)
<whitequark>
he's a pretty cool guy. still waters run deep, so to say
<whitequark>
he enjoyed mentioning various illegal things on lectures and exploding stuff in demonstrations
<wpwrak>
my hopes for getting a reproducible process are sinking again ...
<whitequark>
hahaha
<whitequark>
oh btw, I found a reference to a working process using formaldehyde
<whitequark>
but it's a bit evil so
<wpwrak>
how many goats ?
<whitequark>
goats?
<wpwrak>
evil processed usually require some goats to be sacrificed
<whitequark>
oh
<whitequark>
hmmmm
<whitequark>
it came to my attention that the relevant part is not that HPA is a good reducing agent
<whitequark>
but that copper hypophosphite is thermally unstable
<whitequark>
i.e. any thermally unstable copper salt would fit
<wpwrak>
i don't quite like the ring of "unstable" ...
<wpwrak>
i see nitrogen atoms reach escape velocity ...
<whitequark>
nah, here it means "will decompose at above ~150 degrees celsius"
<wpwrak>
is that because the reaction happens at that temperature or is it a protection against thermal runaway ?
<whitequark>
the reaction is endotermic here
<whitequark>
so, it doesn't self-sustain
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<whitequark>
okay, wrote him a letter
<whitequark>
the formaldehyde process apparently requires you to activate surface with palladium
<whitequark>
argh
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<whitequark>
really, there is not very much options for activation...
<DocScrutinizer05>
copperacid! ;-P
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: hmmm?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or was it acetylite
<DocScrutinizer05>
fulminate?
<DocScrutinizer05>
COPPER ACETYLIDE
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can blast the holes and plate them with nanocopper in one step ;-P
<whitequark>
fulminate sounds explosive indeed
<whitequark>
>Copper acetylide can form inside pipes made of copper or an alloy with high copper content, which may result in violent explosion.
<whitequark>
ooo I've read that in an encyclopedia a few years ago
<whitequark>
I recall being really impressed by that article; it said at some point officials gathered about 1.5t of various pipes and primed them. the resulting explosive moved the whole container 6cm or so
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<wpwrak>
gigacraters plated with nanocopper ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
the problem is you'll need to find something that is a) somehow soluble in a liquid b) somehow you can make it come out of that liquid (prolly easy) c) the remaining copper salt needs to decomposite leaving elementary coppy, at temperatures well below PCB decomposition
<wpwrak>
... and a fine mist of charred organic residue, origin unknown. btw, has anyone seen DocScrutinizer ?
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: exactly
<whitequark>
it appears that hypophosphate hits a sweet spot in all three
<whitequark>
*phosphite
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: ideal suicide method
<wpwrak>
maybe one should just forget about copper and use mercury instead. low melting point, just dunk the pcb in it and keep it refrigerated. done.
<DocScrutinizer05>
lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
if it wasn't for the holes, I'd consider the "exploding wire method" quite suitable
<whitequark>
I had absolutely no doubts "exploding wire method" would catch your attention
<DocScrutinizer05>
vacuum isn't that hard to create
<whitequark>
in fact it's the whole reason I posted that excerpt here :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
and for short distances it might even work in inert gas
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I have some experience with that method ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a funny efect keeping even molten and even boiling copper wires in shape when the magnetic forces from the several 100s of kA kick in
<DocScrutinizer05>
they try to trigger fusion this way
<DocScrutinizer05>
Mega Ampere though, in that case
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway exploding copper wire works, I witnessed it
<DocScrutinizer05>
seen the copper plating on my pliers
<DocScrutinizer05>
but it probably has a hard time to go inside holes
<whitequark>
put the wire through hole?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for exposed surface it's a pretty easy and convenient way to get a nano copper cover
<DocScrutinizer05>
might work :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
but pretty clumsy
<whitequark>
I'm almost inclined to test that just because of how insane it is
<DocScrutinizer05>
0.1mm copper wire + 500uF 400V
<DocScrutinizer05>
+ really heavy duty switch and wires
<whitequark>
relays with Ag coating work really well for this task
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds awesome russian way
<whitequark>
practically no welding even after 100s of discharges
<whitequark>
don't ask how I know
<DocScrutinizer05>
SUUUUUUCKEEEERS!
<whitequark>
oh and disposable photocameras make for an excellent source of high-voltage converters
<whitequark>
and caps, too
<DocScrutinizer05>
I created a special spam filter for subj:"Community & educational development" + body:"PRESS RELEASE"
<DocScrutinizer05>
now the give me "Cummunity & educational development"
<DocScrutinizer05>
fun part, many cats in fact are, at least for me
<wpwrak>
you mean, humans trigger a stronger response ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
research regarding which cats are allergene donors and which are not is ongoing
<DocScrutinizer05>
so far the only result seems to be: the allergene is NOT the hair (usual misconception), rather the proteines from either the saliva (fur cleaning) or the skin flakes
<DocScrutinizer05>
but maybe neither, but rather some secondary effect, like with "hausstaub milbe" (sorry dig fails on that)
<wpwrak>
House dust mite. google shows a nice picture.
<wpwrak>
well, so does wikipedia
<DocScrutinizer05>
the allergenes from that are the proteines in their shit
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<DocScrutinizer05>
for the german speakers: TV invented a new word "Litionenbatterie". Google gave me ~5000 hits, 8th one: http://kamelopedia.net/wiki/Lition
<wpwrak>
"Litionenbatterie" sounds like a useful technical temr :)
<wpwrak>
at least they didn't make it "Loewenbatterie" :)
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<whitequark>
wpwrak: ooo, the teacher I wrote to has responded
<whitequark>
"try copper formate or oxalate. also, acetyloacetate may work."
<whitequark>
hm. googled his suggestion. there's a russian forum with a topic where a single person talks with themselves specifically about thermolysis of various copper salts
<whitequark>
copper acetate (sic) appears unsuitable. decomposes at 250-300°C, if you take monohydrate, it also tends to bounce crystals around if heated. also, crystals are really big.
<whitequark>
copper oxalate is insoluble in water, so also seems to not work
<whitequark>
well, perhaps you'd manage to get a suspension into the holes. but it doesn't sound very reliable.
<whitequark>
aha, copper formate seems to be another industry-standard method of producing metal films
<whitequark>
... however it happens at 350-450°C. another strike.
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<whitequark>
though, let me recheck via other sources...
<wpwrak>
seems that he wasn't sufficiently aware of the various constraints :)
<whitequark>
well, he did give me a lot of pointers. it's now up to me to test them ;)
<whitequark>
would be strange to expect him to solve this completely
<wpwrak>
thinking of it, sodium melts at a convenient 97 C. ideal for dunking :)
<wpwrak>
well, almost 98 C
<whitequark>
and what are you going to do next?
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<wpwrak>
dunk the pcb in it, let the Na metal fill the holes, let it cool down, then wash off the excess Na :)
<whitequark>
how do you wash off excess Na ?
<wpwrak>
kitchen sink of course
<whitequark>
well, that'll 'wash off' all of it
<whitequark>
not excess
<wpwrak>
nitpicking :)
<whitequark>
grmbl. damn publishers.
<wpwrak>
paywall ?
<whitequark>
yeah. for once, their paywall actually worked on me.
<whitequark>
this is annoying.
<whitequark>
grmbl. seems like all the organic salts of copper have decomposition temperatures too high
<whitequark>
but I'd probably just order them all and verify
<whitequark>
need a temperature-controlled oven for that, hmm...
<wpwrak>
i'm beginning to wonder why the wire in the exploding wire method exploded ... could it have been out of frustration with all the other methods ?
<whitequark>
lol
<whitequark>
this is pretty much normal if you don't follow a well-known solution