Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: clean up pattern generation and boundaries (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/fa8b5b6
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: describe the pattern transfer logic (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/e5cb1c9
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c (dma_pattern): move pattern parser to parse_pattern (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/3febc90
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: DMA has mystery glitches. Use PIO for now. (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/908b063
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<wpwrak> larsc: have you ever seen data glitches when DMA'ing to the MMC controller ? all is well when i use PIO, but DMA acts up every once in a while. happens under mlockall, with interrupts off, etc.
<wpwrak> the only thing that seems to help is a strategically placed printf. sleeping at the same spot doesn't do the trick :(
<wpwrak> larsc: (all this is on the Ben)
<larsc> the kernel driver only uses pio
<wpwrak> oh :) thought you'd use DMA
<wpwrak> the funny thing is that UBB-VGA doesn't have any visible issues. of course, it could be that repetition makes the problem go away.
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<wpwrak> ah. maybe i've just answered my own question :) let's flush that CPU cache ....
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<wpwrak> 1380 tests passed and counting. seems that we have a winner
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/: flush dcache and write buffer before doing DMA (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/b6ee672
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: DMA works now. Get rid of the PIO option. (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/c6306ff
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c (dma_pattern): mlockall (before address translation and DMA) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/dad9739
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<wpwrak> first failure after 6675 tests. and that was the scope mis-triggering (the signal is somewhat marginal in that setup), not the pattern generator getting things wrong
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<LunaVorax> Hi!
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<wpwrak> ben nanonote mmc bus clock frequencies cheat sheet: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/ubb/ben-mmc-clk.png
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<zear> wpwrak, how is NanoNote doing nowadays?
<wpwrak> zear: hmm, the community seems fairly dormant. about the only somewhat regular activity are openwrt updates.
<zear> i see
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<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: clean up section structure (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/a5fbf55
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: libubb/mmcclk.c (mmcclk_start): also reset the MMC controller (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/72f2125
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: clean up usage (-c selects clkout only; -C to monitor) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/6e67671
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: remove pattern frequency and use -f for bus clock (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/1111156
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: "ubb-patgen -f FREQ" calculates the frequency (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/eedb0f0
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: option -q when dumping frequencies suppressed details (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/1aedd4b
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/table/: generate a PNG with a table of MMC bus clock frequencies (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/3c94432
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/table/mktab: make the long vertical axes thinner (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/653910b
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: accept file (- for standard input) as pattern source (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/69aba6a
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: new option -p to force interpretation as pattern (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/d60ef14
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<whitequark> wpwrak: neat graph. how did you compose it?
<wpwrak> and then ./mktab FREQ | gnuplot -persist >ben-mmc-clk.png
<wpwrak> no ruby, sorry :)
<wpwrak> FREQ comes from running ubb-patgen -q on the ben (it queries some system settings to determine the available frequencies, that's why it has to run on the ben itself)
<whitequark> I might use that sometimes, thanks
<wpwrak> good :)
<whitequark> (no ruby) please, don't portrait me more as a zealot than I actually am ;)
<wpwrak> maybe you have to work on your PR ;-)
<whitequark> well, as a guy writing an implementation of Ruby dialect I sorta should prefer it to other languages, no? :)
<wpwrak> that would depend on how well things are going :)
<whitequark> maybe I should just go and write a helloworld for ben now...
<whitequark> given that I don't even need to recompile LLVM, shouldn't be that hard
<wpwrak> that's usually a good start :)
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<larsc> why is it that a programming language has either sane semantics or good practicality?
<whitequark> larsc: could you elaborate?
<larsc> not sure ;)
<wpwrak> would C, having both, be the exception to larsc's rule ? :)
<whitequark> if only it actually had at least one of them ;)
<wpwrak> it somehow doesn't surprise me that you'd say that :)
<whitequark> well, that's because I think so?
<whitequark> a language which does not by default have even opt-in safe string manipulation functions isn't practical by any means; and the problem with semantics is that fundamentally every datatype in C is a leaky abstraction
<larsc> I just sometimes get the feeling that for languages with sane semantics people where focused so much on the semantics they forgot about making the language actually usable in everyday programming
<wpwrak> whitequark: C forces the programmer to think about what they're doing a bit earlier than other languages do
<wpwrak> whitequark: that's how C developers get more exercise in thinking ;-)
<whitequark> wpwrak: ... about things they in 90% cases don't and shouldn't care about
<whitequark> regardless, I'm not even referring to that
<wpwrak> trolling is fun :)
<whitequark> C's semantics is very poorly defined. for example, both signed and unsigned overflow is an UB, because we totally work on non-two's-complement machines
<wpwrak> larsc: and yes, the fear of imperfection often drives them to strange omissions
<whitequark> and there's something similarly crazy going on with floats
<larsc> 'loops are evil, you must always use recursion'
<whitequark> and there's all the ways you cannot define a bitfield in a portable way, or even specify alognment
<wpwrak> larsc: until, if the language catches on regardless, the pragmatists roll in and add generally particularly ugly hacks that overcome all those omissions again
<whitequark> larsc: the part about loops is probably one of the most misunderstood concepts in FP
<whitequark> first, to my knowledge, it was an academic language (Scheme) which first opted to omit loop syntax entirely
<whitequark> a language which was explicitly designed for teaching students and not doing real work in
<whitequark> CL has loops, for example
<whitequark> second, it is quite natural in Lisp, where a rule of thumb is that you should shape your code like your data structure looks like, and data structures are generally recursive [linked lists]
<wpwrak> lithp hath (prog ...) complethe withth gotho :)
<wpwrak> which i think proves my point of the fix being uglier than the imperfection whose avoidance the fix aims to fix
<whitequark> wpwrak: scheme has continuations, which are generalized *and* safe form of goto's
<whitequark> this is the primitive which can be used to make exceptions and fibers, for example
<whitequark> so you fail at trolling ;)
<wpwrak> scheme is very very new stuff. not a good example to start explaining the evolution of functional languages
<whitequark> (very very new) 1975?
<whitequark> C is from 1972 ;)
<wpwrak> LISP started in 1958 ...
<whitequark> well, so? I demonstrated how a functional language doesn't have ugly hacks over strange omissions
<urandom__> larsc: well there is always lua, practicality und (relative) sane semantics
<wpwrak> maybe the makers of scheme thought that, now that lisp was about to reach the age of consent, they really ought to make something new that's pure again
<whitequark> rofl
<whitequark> that's all I would say
<urandom__> well one can just use CL if there is need to get shit done ;P , never understood whats cool about scheme
<wpwrak> (makes me wonder what languages came out around 1990, when scheme reached that age. hmm, haskell ...)
<wpwrak> i always wondered what the "ask" was doing in that otherwise quite self-explaining name. but maybe it's self-referential and you're supposed to ask about the "ask".
<whitequark> wpwrak: please proceed to completely miss the reason of haskell's creation
<wpwrak> to preserve the proud tradition of INTERCAL ? :)
<whitequark> to be able to precisely represent side effects in the type system
<whitequark> which is a neat thing theoretically, but is a royal pain in the ass to write code in
<wpwrak> hence my comment about "haskell" minus "ask" being rather descriptive :)
<wpwrak> regarding "side effects in the type system" ... makes you realize how small the hamming-distance to a turing machine really is
<whitequark> not sure what do you mean by the part about turing machine
<wpwrak> clear to bits and you have s/type/tape/
<wpwrak> s/to/two/
<qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "clear two bits and you have s/type/tape/"
* whitequark shrugs
<whitequark> makes me wonder who of us is a zealot
<wpwrak> "side effects in the tape system". doesn't that sound like a pretty good description of a turing machine ?
<larsc> there are no side effects in the tape system ;)
<whitequark> larsc: have you seen languages of the ML family?
<whitequark> OCaml/SML
<larsc> yes
<larsc> actually taking a course on sml at this very moment
<whitequark> larsc: oh interesting. could you share a link? I'm going to learn it (or OCaml maybe) too.
<larsc> it's a course on programming langues in general, but starts with sml
<larsc> and later on ruby
<whitequark> oh, two more people recommended this to me today
<whitequark> is this a good course?
<larsc> so far, so good
<larsc> but it just started this week
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: new option -m MASK to choose which DATx lines to use (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/1c76cab
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: libubb/mmcclk.c (BUS_LIMIT_MHZ): explain the 56 MHz limit (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/10b0dea
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: new option -t 0|1 to start pattern on TRIGGER/CLK (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/0bb711e
<whitequark> um emacs
<larsc> hehe
<whitequark> meh, sublimetext2 has this syntax either
<larsc> andalso is a keyword...
<whitequark> "fun" is a keyword either
<larsc> fun is ok
<whitequark> it's fun!
<larsc> the other one is 'orelse'
<larsc> I guess they wanted to make it more explicit that the 2nd expression is only if the first was true(for and)/false(for or)
<wpwrak> as in "either you obey or else ..." ?
<whitequark> larsc: is only evaluated?
<larsc> yea
<larsc> I wish I had had the speedup feature which coursera offers for lectures, for the lectures I visited when I was still at university ;)
<whitequark> larsc: so you've graduated?
<larsc> long time ago
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<whitequark> if not a secret, what are you doing now?
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<larsc> working ;)
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<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/README: brief description how ubb-patgen works (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/d5ea5d9
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<whitequark> huh. found a bug in llvm. got an immediate response from the person responsible for it...
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<larsc> are you writing a frontend for llvm?
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