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<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: he i delete my forecast app because of that ;)
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<kristianpaul>
but i was in a motorcycle in the middle of a road 50km away from home..
<kristianpaul>
on the*
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<wpwrak>
ah, must be nice to come home, looking like a drowned rat :)
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<wpwrak>
well, the rain here was just long enough to make me collect all the tools and go inside. after half a hour, things were dry enough to finish. now the lamps are curing (sealed them with silicone - one of them had given me no end of trouble with rainwater crawling in and getting into the apartment's electrical system)
<roh>
yummi
<wpwrak>
the rain basically has to fall upward to reach that one. that's why it took me a long time to even suspect it. surprisingly, it often enough managed to do just that
<roh>
do you have gpf stuff?
<roh>
'nen fi'
<wpwrak>
ah yes, i do. and yes, that's the one that tripped.
<wpwrak>
i suspected a very different area (well, some 3-4 m away), where we had had a major leak before
<roh>
heh. lucily we got more than a dozend seperate ones here
<roh>
even untypical for germany, but they had sunbanks in there originally
<roh>
very nice for us.. we actually tripped some from time to time
<wpwrak>
there, the chimney of one of the building's internal air channels had ruptured at the base. plus, the drain of the (flat) roof there it came out was clogged. so once, in a heavy rain, the water rose and rose, until it entered that air channel, and happily made its way from there into pretty much everything else.
<roh>
eek
<wpwrak>
one of the more impressive sights was to see the water come out of some walls, then head for the staircase and cascade down on the 13 floors below :) interestingly, on the other side of the wall, there was no visible damage
<roh>
sometimes i think one really should build his own house.. just to make sure no obviously stupid failipures in planning happen
<roh>
or atleast one knows who is the perp then ;)
<wpwrak>
yeah, the latter may be where the danger lurks :) "oh, that's fine. it's dangerous but i'll pay attention."
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<kyak>
if someone could give me an insight about what's wrong with FSF, it would be interesting for me to know
<kyak>
i'm not exactly in the loop here, but i always thought that they were kinda the leading force of FOSS movement
<kyak>
or are you bashing them in the same way i bash openwrt, but deep inside you love it? :)
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<lindi->
kyak: for one it's very unclear to me who actually makes decisions there
<kyak>
does it mean FSF are not open source enough themselves? :)
<lindi->
kyak: I think the term here would be transparent
<kyak>
sure.. from what whitequark said, it was RMS's decision to make GCC non modular. Is he a decision maker?
<whitequark>
this reminds me of how Linus has omitted the "[GPL2] or any later version" clause in Linux
<whitequark>
turns out it was a wise decision
<Fallenou>
for sure
<kyak>
hm, interesting
<kyak>
then there is noone behind the open source community, i think it's bad
<lindi->
kyak: huh?
<whitequark>
there is no such thing as an "open source community"
<whitequark>
or rather "the open source community"
<kyak>
yeah, that's what i wanted to say
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<whitequark>
kyak: huh? I don't get why is this bad. or how this could be different, in fact.
<whitequark>
"open source community" as a term is something like "humanity". not referring to a single entity under circumstances I could imagine.
<wpwrak>
kyak: we all are. that's strength.
<wpwrak>
whitequark: the other model would be: one community, one fuehrer, ... ;-)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: exactly
<whitequark>
BDFLs work for *parts* of OSS communities. preferably very small parts.
<wpwrak>
well, it sort of worked for apple ;-)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: not long-term
<kyak>
wpwrak: how is that a strength? What can we do? Go sign an online petition?
<kyak>
the community is sparse and uncontrolled, that's efeectively means it doesn't exist
<kyak>
there is noone behind our backs
<kyak>
that is, if FSF is what you described (non-transparent and loosing members)
<lindi->
kyak: uncontrolled? you mean unorganized?
<lindi->
kyak: what's your native language btw?
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<lindi->
kyak: but there is FSFE too
<kyak>
lindi-: (unorganized) sorry for that. It's Russian.
<kyak>
never heard of FSFE
<wpwrak>
kyak: i see that you don't believe in self-organizaion. good that we didn't have to rely on evolution to get us out of the primordial dirt. that would never have worked ;-)
<kyak>
wpwrak: i see that you rely on self-organization, let's mee where it brings in a nearest future :)
<kyak>
hm, 'm' is not even close to 's' on keyboard
<lindi->
kyak: fsfe.org -- I'm a member of the Finnish team there
<kyak>
i see the same "secure boot" story on main page
<lindi->
kyak: this year we were planning free your android workshops
<wpwrak>
whitequark: (GPL v2+) don't see the connection. the risk is basically that GPL n (n > current) might allow things you'd rather want forbidden. GPL < n already gives you a perpetual license to use the sw under the present term, so it's not possible to take anything away.
<kyak>
lindi-: (procurrement violations) interesting, but is it really open-source related?
<lindi->
kyak: definitely
<kyak>
means you are proposing open source (and free) replacementS?
<lindi->
kyak: if the public organizations only buy "Oracle" or "Microsoft" products then it is hard to compete
<lindi->
kyak: no, we are making sure that FLOSS solutions can compete on equal grounds
<wpwrak>
kyak: it's lobbying the surroundings of free software
<kyak>
i see.. but it's really hard. If they want Oracle, they will find reasons why
<lindi->
kyak: but the Finnish law will not allow them to do that
<kyak>
their admins are good at Oracle
<lindi->
kyak: it's complicated but if they are dependent on Oracle then they need to publish a document where they explain why they are stuck to this one vendor
<lindi->
kyak: as I understand it the law is pretty clear on this for public organizations
<wpwrak>
kyak: it's not necessarily about forcing them not to make bad choices, but about encouraging them to make good ones. not all public servants are moles of big capital and organized crime ;-)
<kyak>
wpwrak: i don't believe that after you said them that mysql is a better choice, they would say "really? thanks, we never heard of that"
<kyak>
and then would thank you for helping them make a better choice
<lindi->
kyak: but you need to understand that procurement does not quite work like that
<lindi->
kyak: they publish the specifications and they pretty much need to take the cheapest offer
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<kyak>
yeah, that's right
<kyak>
so who will offer on behalf of some open source project?
<kyak>
they don't even have an accounting :)
<lindi->
kyak: there are many companies that sell solutions based on open source components
<wpwrak>
kyak: there are lots of companies that sell open source. ever heard of, say, red hat ? :)
<wpwrak>
lindi-: heh, nearly identical :)
<kyak>
red hat is another monopolist
<wpwrak>
yawn :)
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<larsc>
here in munich the public administration switched to a Linux based infrastructure some time ago, not only servers but also desktops
<lindi->
at least our university bought midgard CMS and dovecot from private companies
<larsc>
they claim that they saved money, but their calculations are a bit fisht
<lindi->
larsc: we haven't been able to access the calculations yet
<kyak>
cool.. some companies work their ass off making software, and others just package open source software with minimal resources
<lindi->
larsc: I have a Gardner account but it does not have enough privileges to see that Gardner publication
<kyak>
i say, that the second company is a leech
<lindi->
Gartner even
<lindi->
kyak: what second company?
<lindi->
kyak: dovecot?
<kyak>
lindi-: the one that just packages open source software and sells it. As opposed to the company that actually spends money to develop software (and it doesn't matter at this point if it open or closed source)
<lindi->
kyak: well the dovecot company developed dovecot
<lindi->
" Our game is email storage. We are pretty good at it."
<kyak>
there are many open source projects with no companies behind them
<lindi->
kyak: so? anyone can start a company to sell solutions based on those
<kyak>
or even, there are few open source projects with companies behind them
<kyak>
lindi-: that anyone would be a leech
<lindi->
kyak: why?
<kyak>
because they are not investing their money
<lindi->
kyak: why would they not invest money?
<kyak>
or, as much money as company that actually develops software
<lindi->
if their entire business depends on that piece of software they would be very unwise to not invest money
<kyak>
because i can package shit for free
<lindi->
kyak: I think you need to name some specific company, it is difficult to speculate
<larsc>
redhat ;)
<kyak>
redhat probably develops something...
<larsc>
packages all the stuff and then sells expensive support contracts for it
<lindi->
redhat paid a lot of people to work for free java and now they are paying people to develop systemtap
<larsc>
I was joking
<lindi->
:P
<kyak>
lindi-: i can't name anything specific.. maybe, who is behind postgresql?
<kyak>
or another example, octave
<lindi->
kyak: redhat and some postgresql experts inc.
<kyak>
how it can enter a procurement contest?
<lindi->
kyak: you just form a company and fill out some forms
<lindi->
kyak: and hire a lawyer
<kyak>
exactly.. so easy
<kyak>
that's why it's leeching
<lindi->
kyak: I don't understand you
<roh>
hm. fsck. its january and my accounting sw hates me.
<kyak>
getting money for doing nothing.. using other people's labour
<whitequark>
lindi-: btw, redhat develops a proper free AA64 JIT for OpenJDK right now
<lindi->
kyak: doing nothing?
<whitequark>
(oracle has proprietary AA32 and AA64 JITs)
<larsc>
kyak: if anybody can do this you'd expect very hard competition which drives the price down
<lindi->
kyak: surely if you offer a solution based on postgresql you are going to have to handle a lot of support and integration issues
<larsc>
down to the point were you not pay for the software, but rather for the service
<lindi->
kyak: I don't think anybody has managed to do that with octave. sage might have a chance
<lindi->
our university pays to non-free things like matlab, mathematica, simulink
<kyak>
larsc: nobody does that because open source solutions usually are not quite comptetive. Also, usually the contest mentions that support is required. So it suddenly becomes not so attractive to package and sell open source software
<lindi->
I'd certainly welcome free alternatives
<lindi->
kyak: well the procurement notice could have almost any terms but usually it has some sort of a 5-year support contract
<kyak>
lindi-: there is another thing. If there is always a company behind any competitor in a contest (even open source), why are you doing their jobs?
<kyak>
it's their job to persuade customers, do marketing etc
<kyak>
or, i forgot.. they don't want to spend money?
<lindi->
kyak: well we are much more neutral body since we are not tied to some specific company
<kyak>
you are tied to open source companies, aren't you?
<lindi->
kyak: yes but not some specific company
<kyak>
lindi-: say, if there is a cheaper close-source solution and a more expensive open-source solution, and am open-source solution wa chosen. Will you fight for the rights of closed-source company?
<lindi->
but now time for dinner
<kyak>
bon appetit!
<kyak>
btw, such occasions are very much possible with redhat, i suppose
<kyak>
i think there are groups here in Russia doing the same. Mostly individuals, who keep track of official procurement site and make noise if they find something. But this is not really related to open source, since it can happen to everyone. That's why i asked initialy why it was open source related
<wpwrak>
kyak: you need to decide whether it's money for nothing or prohibitively hard work. right now you're saying it's both ;-)
<kyak>
wpwrak: if you package and sell it, it's money for nothing. But not anybody can do this, because it takes responsibility to support other people's code after you sold it. But it still costs less than adding the development costs to this
<kyak>
that's why i said it's not so attractive
<kyak>
..as it seems.
<kyak>
but i don't have to be a PhD in math to be able to calculate that developing+packaging+selling+supporting is bigger than packaging+selling+supporting
<lindi->
kyak: I still fail to understand your point here :/
<kyak>
my point is that everything needs to be protected during procurement. Not just open source
<kyak>
in fact, open source has nothing do with it at all.
<kyak>
have to go now
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<wpwrak>
kyak: the closed source companies can easily benefit from this as well - by opening their stuff ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: nasty H^3F fumes though ;-P
<wpwrak>
"IDF surplus store" ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah X-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
watch the exhaust fumes visible in infrared view of whole truck
<DocScrutinizer05>
tritiumflouride :-o
<wpwrak>
yeah :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
4:28
<wpwrak>
"ready to take the next step" ... MIRVs ?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
my neighbours don't like what the exhaust fumes do to their trees
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the tritium is a bit expensive
<wpwrak>
well, it should be easy enough to take out that critter - just fire a projectile without explosive aboard. all the laser will accomplish is make it come in a little hotter.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wonder which power this thing has, probably in the MW range
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<wpwrak>
whitequark: what kind of device is that ?
<wpwrak>
or is it a fake ? i don't get it
<whitequark>
wpwrak: Windows 8 phone
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<wpwrak>
oh, lovely :)
<larsc>
well I guess you can attach a usb diskdrive
<kyak>
or usb floppy drive
<kristianpaul>
haha looks fake
<kristianpaul>
i mean come on..
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<wpwrak>
the connector at the top and the exposed screws don't look very real
<wpwrak>
and if it's a prototype, well, i've seen worse mishaps :)
<viric>
damn spaniards; the royal academy of the language is changing the definitions of "nation" and "referendum", ahead of the coming referendum for the independence of Catalonia.
<viric>
(damn *ruling* spaniards)
<wpwrak>
hacking the language ? that's sneaky ;-)
<viric>
they did that already...
<viric>
about 'nation', when Catalonia aproved a new constitution
<viric>
where it was a key word.
<viric>
on 2010.
<wpwrak>
"estar en favor": to be undecided, reluctant.
<viric>
;)
<viric>
It's easier to change the meaning of words than the law texts.
* kristianpaul
tought was "estar a favor"
<viric>
similar
<viric>
does the royal academy of the spanish language still have a role in the spanish america?
<kristianpaul>
ehh there are many spanish derivatives
<wpwrak>
viric: of course. and even more so when trolling ;-)