Topic for #milkymist is now Milkymist One, Milkymist SoC & Flickernoise development channel (LLHDL/Antares are welcome too) :: Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs :: JFDI
<wpwrak>
no, the VBUS switch we consider adding
<wolfspraul>
I'm also for enabling software switching
<wolfspraul>
of course it's another risk, but so what
<wpwrak>
very good :)
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<kristianpaul>
software switching reads like power saving feature for me :)
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<kristianpaul>
btw is anyone using FEL16 here? i guess/hope at least sebastien..
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<aw_>
wpwrak, seems that you prefer to use an unpopulated 0402 footprint in series with them to s/w enable usb switch. Smart it is! so this won't affect if real know FPGA's pins in after reset as either Z or pull-up. Does it the idea go on? http://en.qi-hardware.com/mmlogs/milkymist_2011-11-17.log.html#t23:13
<wpwrak>
yes, it's independent. of course, it will default to on, which may not be ideal. but at least we can easily get control. and once this has worked for a while and sebastien stops worrying, we can simplify it :)
<wolfspraul>
aw_: I think we should make this work right away
<wolfspraul>
make it really work or just don't do it at all :-)
<wolfspraul>
the idea of replacing something that we worry about with something that only does the worrisome thing half-way sounds like a foolish attempt to battle with Murphy's law to me
<wolfspraul>
either break through, or don't do it at all. I support either way.
<wpwrak>
naw, it doesn't do the worrying thing. but we can easily make it do it. so no risk but all the fun :)
<wolfspraul>
foolish attempt to battle with Murphy
<wolfspraul>
that's what that is
<wpwrak>
well ... the things we do for peace :)
<wolfspraul>
and then some problem will show up with the half-way approach, guaranteed
<wolfspraul>
either we make this work, or we don't do it at all
<wpwrak>
let's first see if any glitches pop up
<wolfspraul>
if it's too risky, then let's put it aside
<wolfspraul>
ok that's design verification...
<wpwrak>
i don't know yet whether to take sebastien's premonitions serious or not :)
<wpwrak>
and it may be a while until we really exercise this
<wolfspraul>
I just want to say we should focus on valuable working things, not on adding insurance everywhere.
<roh>
glitches?
<wolfspraul>
it seems there is some merit to the idea, with mwalle also supporting it
<wpwrak>
yeah, remember GTA02 and all the 0R/NC ? ;-))
<wolfspraul>
the idea is that we can enable/disable power to USB ?
<wpwrak>
roh: during reconfiguration/partial reconfiguration
<wpwrak>
yes
<aw_>
wolfspraul, i know your words. me also wanted this feature to be implemented actually. as management your thinking is good, but as executive side we can try this. from my views on routing, I don't see how it big risk on it.
<roh>
so what. what should these glicthes do? enable usb power? nothing bad should happen then
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<wolfspraul>
aw_: ok. but like I said - I either want to work towards something that actually creates value, or not work on it at all.
<wolfspraul>
I don't want to work on virtual features, then we loose all focus and concentration.
<wpwrak>
roh: he thinks they could cut power. of course, there's a big silo cap right after the switch, so ...
<roh>
its not a power-amp for a man-sized metal mill which is contolled, its if a usbport has power within spec or not (and if it draws too much it will limit by hw, right?
<wpwrak>
when the switch os there, yes
<aw_>
wpwrak, btw, so your idea is to use only two routes to connect ENs of usb-switch. so how about FLGs or indicator, it seems that you wanted to use them for led.
<roh>
wpwrak: when? reconfig doesnt happen while using, right?
<wpwrak>
sebastien's approach would be "always on". so the only thing he can worry about is accidental off
<wpwrak>
roh: not yet ...
<roh>
so if it happens once on boot, who cares? the usb will be rescanned after that anyhow
<aw_>
wolfspraul, true. understood. we can prepare parts first then design verification with Werner later, how so you think?
<wolfspraul>
sure
<roh>
if the chip gliches on generic io while reconfig we can not use that while the user has it
<wolfspraul>
definitely, get the parts, try, verify it's stable
<wpwrak>
aw_: ah, the FLG wold be nice, too. you can never have too much information :)
<roh>
'in production use' anyhow
<wolfspraul>
but I need to understand which real goal we are chasing, and in this case it seems to be the ability to enable/disable usb power in software (from the fpga)
<wpwrak>
roh: as i said, i don't know what he's worried about and whether it makes sense
<roh>
wolfspraul: ack. not a bad idea. also wire the overcurrent-fail line also then (feedback from the switch to the fpga)
<wolfspraul>
that sounds like a nice little feature to me
<wolfspraul>
roh: what is that? the FLG aw_ just mentioned?
<wpwrak>
yup. gain flexibility for whatever we may want to do with it. one use could be not powering USB when starting, so M1 would have a lower total current consumption around reset time
<roh>
wpwrak: 'normal' usb host ports on the pc disable/enable power to hard reset the bus as kind of last resort to get a port useable again after real bad issues (usually these come from bad/broken usb cables)
<wolfspraul>
software control over power is good
<wpwrak>
roh: yes, that's another use case :)
<aw_>
wpwrak, if adding usb-switch in rc4, i can see i can just wire two wires from J21 to usb-switch while design verification stage. and connected +5V and VBUS power rail lines.
<roh>
wolfspraul: yes.. its sometimes called a flag. its simply a line which signals the status of the current limiter inside such usb-vbus switch/limit chips.
<roh>
for lowering consumtion you need to also disable the usbphy also... but that would be another todo ;)
<aw_>
the usb-switch chip has a good two pins for two usb channel to indicate usb host current (charging status, etc) so my question is werner will you want to use FLGs to as led for two ports?
<wpwrak>
aw_: no, i'd want FLG1 and FLG2 at the FPGA. and separate lines to the LEDs
<roh>
wpwrak: ?
<wpwrak>
aw_: no hard-wired power status logic, cf. ben charging led ;-)
<wpwrak>
but now .. dinner :)
<aw_>
wpwrak, so this desire needs total four routes under fpga then connect to usb-switch.
<roh>
ah. OC is called FLG there
<wpwrak>
aw_: yup
<aw_>
wpwrak, got it
<roh>
nice.. the chip you found even has seperate flags for each port? nice.
<aw_>
so i think we can pick active-low with AP2142A
<roh>
hm. and we need 2 pullups on flg1/2 then
<roh>
from my pov, if we add the possibility to hardwire the en_ pins we have basically zero added risk
<aw_>
wpwrak, i think later we can use J21's four pins to implement this usb-switch while verifying.
<roh>
the chip selected is built for what we want to use it, and with the possibility to place resistors to hardware it to on, its even a zero sw change needed.
<wolfspraul>
aw_: yes, I agree. do not connect leds to things that are automatically triggered by hardware/electrically.
<wolfspraul>
that way we loose control over our board. Remember we are all software people in the end :-)
<wolfspraul>
the report wires go back to the fpga, and the fpga controls the leds...
<roh>
hm. is the rc3 schem still altium? search is broken and one cannot click on signals *sigh*
<roh>
one question.. do we really need extra leds for that?
<aw_>
rc3 sche is broken? checking...
<roh>
well.. not broken. just less featured
<roh>
seems pixels not vectors/text.
<aw_>
roh, oah..okay
<kristianpaul>
roh: yeah is a shame, but good side you develop patience and visual skills :)
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<roh>
kristianpaul: i was just wondering. i thought we are on kicad now, not altium anymore
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
too many battles
<kristianpaul>
he, how you get to that conclusion roh :)
<kristianpaul>
indeed
<wolfspraul>
my next kicad task is to uptick the keyboard patches (and work on 1-2 todo items regarding those from Werner) - haven't done that IN A YEAR
<wolfspraul>
we could transfer the schematics into kicad as a first step
<wolfspraul>
because they are fairly stable
<wolfspraul>
that way they would start to show up in schhist with proper version history etc.
<wolfspraul>
and we could boomify the bom, but that would most likely require more work in boom
<wolfspraul>
work everywhere
<wolfspraul>
can someone drop 500 people from somewhere? :-)
<roh>
easy... 500people working without pay would be impressive
<wolfspraul>
after the schematics and bom, we could do the layout, but after we move the layout to kicad we loose access to the layout house we are using now, which is sad since they can share their experience and reduce risk
<wolfspraul>
but at least on my todo list, that's many items away from the top :-)
<wolfspraul>
it starts with upticking keyboard patches and trying to upstream them into kicad
<wolfspraul>
dormant since January (!)
<wolfspraul>
roh: do you think you can find someone who is sourcing once in a while and could help develop boom?
<wolfspraul>
I want to use boom for m1 sourcing but I have so many tasks that realistically it just won't happen soon
<roh>
good question. i dont have any idea about a specific person yet.
<roh>
but i'll keep my eyes open
<roh>
btw. we now have a extra plastic printer in the works
<wolfspraul>
you mean a 3D printer?
<roh>
the kit arrived yesterday... we completed it today. now its up to testing and calibration
<kristianpaul>
btw shapercube said (i asked time ago) they dont have problems with hihg volumes (<500 units)
<wolfspraul>
I'm not one of the believers of the "3d printers will change the world" faction, but they are a great tool among many other tools, so that's good
<roh>
we basically bought it because its more massive and bigger than a cupcake and not so much more expensive in europe
<kristianpaul>
of course if just a _said_
<wolfspraul>
and also there are many different variants and processes (as always in mechanical)
<kristianpaul>
s/if/is
<kristianpaul>
ah sorry sorry
<kristianpaul>
i read bad and understood shapeways ,)
<roh>
reprap-based machines are still pioneer tools. and as such highly 'custom' over time.
<roh>
there is a lot of variants one could test in the details and basically thats crowdsourced... best results are that what lands in the next revision of a machine
<wolfspraul>
like I said. I think a lot of the people currently joining the 3d printing hype seem a little naive in thinking that earth was created when the first reprap appeared out of dark matter, or so.
<wpwrak>
(keyboard patches) you mean command-line :)
<roh>
i think its nice to have, nice to hack, nice to use to hack, but not really good for mass-prduction/selling stuff
<wolfspraul>
in reality there are thousands of tools with all sorts of optimizations, in speed, materials, cost, etc.
<wolfspraul>
our friend marcan from OpenLase seems to be doing a little detour to a laser sintering 3D printer first, if I understood him correctly
<wpwrak>
(3D printing) the good ones seem to produce pretty respectable results. but you have to put money on the table. if you flinch when you hear about 5-digit figures at the point of going 6-digit, then that technology is not for you.
<wpwrak>
(yet :)
<roh>
nice idea. havent seen any supply of materials there (sinterable stuff etc)
<kristianpaul>
there are actually roh , lase sintering looks very promising
<kristianpaul>
laser*
<wolfspraul>
oh I think there is lots of stuff available, used, for this or that
<wolfspraul>
industry equipment, from cheap to expensive, optimized for this or that parameter
<roh>
kristianpaul: depending on what your goals are. if its 'availability of raw materials/parts' should be good everywhere, you are a bit limited
<roh>
current reprap variants can be built basically everywhere from local sourceable materials. (that is/was a design goal in most projects afaik)
<kristianpaul>
and accurate, more natural at least can swap dark matter to chemical soup :)
<roh>
we currently have white(natural), black and red ABS, and natual colored PLA (transluscent to transparent)
<kristianpaul>
and now image this laser tech to micro umeter scale like azonenberg work :)
<kristianpaul>
roh: what color M1 next printed case will be? :)
<roh>
nice idea. different goal.
<roh>
kristianpaul: whatever wolfgang orders ;=)
<roh>
next we want to upgrade our laser.
<roh>
maybe we could do sintering experiments on that then
<azonenberg>
kristianpaul: if someone gets a device for under $2K that can do 365-405nm direct write at <50um resolution, i'm interested
<kristianpaul>
you just put that stl somwhere i can copy it :)
<azonenberg>
i dont need a lot of power, this is for photolithography and not ablation
<roh>
given that we find a source for sinterable dust
<roh>
azonenberg: i dont really know your setup.. is it documented somewhere?
<azonenberg>
homecmos.googlecode.com has some info
<azonenberg>
mainly i'm interested in mask fab
<azonenberg>
evaporate or sputter metal over a piece of glass
<azonenberg>
spin coat in photoresist
<azonenberg>
then draw my pattern at 1:1 scale into the photoresist with a laser
<azonenberg>
develop and etch the metal, then strip resist
<wpwrak>
azonenberg: we still haven't explored that direct bluray writer idea :)
<azonenberg>
wpwrak: i know
<azonenberg>
bluray has the power and then some
<azonenberg>
it's just focusing and aiming
<roh>
ack.
<roh>
i know of people using a blueray diode on a old pen-plotter to cut paper
<wpwrak>
roh: wow
<wpwrak>
i didn't imagine it to be that powerful
<azonenberg>
its a lot
<azonenberg>
i'd be firing it in short pulses
<azonenberg>
like 10-100ns
<azonenberg>
then moving the beam and firing another shot
<wolfspraul>
azonenberg: do you know marcan and OpenLase?
<azonenberg>
Negative
<wolfspraul>
ok I'll point him to this chat snippet
<wpwrak>
different scale :)
<azonenberg>
Lol
<wolfspraul>
nah, but he is doing a 3D printer now and the galvanometer stuff is the same I believe
<azonenberg>
Well, what I *really* want to do is skip the laser entirely and do e-beam :p
<azonenberg>
But thats a little... smaller
<wolfspraul>
don't know whether there is overlap or not, but there might be some, at least in knowledge/experience
<wpwrak>
maybe they're converging ;-)
<azonenberg>
or EUV :P
<wpwrak>
x-ray
<azonenberg>
i say EUV because even the real semiconductor industry cant get it working :p
<wpwrak>
see. there's you chance to be waay ahead of the pack :)
<azonenberg>
lol
<azonenberg>
I need a SEM first
<wpwrak>
semi-explainable matter, vulgo "dark matter" ?
<azonenberg>
scanning electron microscope
<azonenberg>
lol
<wpwrak>
(sem) the price tag of your mad scientist's lab keeps on increasing. already the bribes for the environmental agency and all your chemicals must be a fortune :)
<azonenberg>
wpwrak: no bribes, everything is above board
<roh>
azonenberg: wish for a FIB workstation eh?
<azonenberg>
roh: A SEM is actually on the feasible list
<azonenberg>
My school has one in the cleanroom that cost $1.3M new
<azonenberg>
consensus among a few friends is that used in good condition it'd probably sell for $500K ish
<azonenberg>
On the other hand the JSM-840 they sell on the same site is probably in the low five figures
<azonenberg>
about the price of a decent car
<azonenberg>
Which is entirely affordable for someone with a PhD making >$100K a year, as i hope to be by 2016ish
<azonenberg>
But i'm not going to spend five years' pay on one piece of equipment :p
<wpwrak>
let's talk about that in five years :)
<roh>
hehe
<roh>
well... give it time and a lot of hacking.. maybe it comes down to 'hackspace-affordable'
<roh>
i wouldnt have dreamed about being able to play with cnc equipment 5 years ago, in my own time in my own space
<roh>
and with industries and businesses crubling... keep your eyes open for surplus/used equipment :)
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<azonenberg>
roh: yeah
<azonenberg>
I am hoping to bring IC fab to that level
<azonenberg>
though its still a ways out
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<wpwrak>
roh: spoken like a true geek. the world is coming to an end => TOYS !!
<roh>
wpwrak: :)
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<lars_>
wpwrak: more importantly: _free_ toys
<lars_>
or at least highly subsidized
<lars_>
for the hamburg hacker space we recently managent to get hold of ~8 barely used cnc machines which were intended to go to the junkyard
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: now we know where to get the aluminium M1 case from :)
<lars_>
hehe
<wpwrak>
the quadcopter frame looks quite tidy indeed
<lars_>
unfortunately i'm no longer in hamburg
<wolfspraul>
yeah well. ownership of tools is only one small part of the problem, I think.
<wolfspraul>
in my experience
<wpwrak>
they got these mills to lure you back ;-)
<wolfspraul>
sometimes the people sitting on the most expensive stuff are getting the least done
<wpwrak>
true :)
<wolfspraul>
the next step is how to translate the power of such tools into tangible results
<wolfspraul>
I have come to find out that it's best to just use the services of specialized small service providers/shops.
<wolfspraul>
they are all over, and they will squeeze the last penny of value/revenue out of the machines they own (or have leased/etc).
<wolfspraul>
I'm not against hackerspace, academic 'shared/open' labs etc at all, just from practical experience. tedious opening hours, tedious communication channels, tedious access/waiting lists. stuff is 'unaccessible' for all sorts of minor maintenance problems, and so on. infinite list.
<wolfspraul>
meanwhile whoever is running the hacker/shared/open space still has enough to take pictures and write blog posts :-)
<wpwrak>
yeah, you must be able to afford low duty cycles
<wpwrak>
e.g., my mill is ready whenever i am. but it's idle 99.9% of the time. of course, the transaction cost of doing things at a shop would be very large, in comparison
<wolfspraul>
don't understand
<wpwrak>
so i think for development, this sort of equipment is good to have
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, theoretically
<wolfspraul>
a shop has an efficient system of processes, communication and people built around investment in tools
<wolfspraul>
is that happening at the hamburg hackerspace?
<wolfspraul>
they push the inefficiencies outward because they have no incentive to make access to those tools easier
<wolfspraul>
let's say "could", because I don't know what exactly will happen
<wolfspraul>
let's find out in 1-2 years :-)
<wolfspraul>
the difficult part is not in getting tools/machines, I think the difficult part is to efficiently keep them running
<wpwrak>
well, if i did my milling to a shop, each cycle would take at last a day, probably several. and i may need a number of cycles to get the results i want.
<wolfspraul>
I have seen so much expensive stuff collecting dust by now, I don't want to see it anymore.
<wolfspraul>
I stand firm here making the point that the more expensive tools someone has, the less they get done. :-)
<wpwrak>
my volume is low, so there's little benefit in the shop then being able to do larger runs (which would be more efficient)
<wpwrak>
naw, not true
<wolfspraul>
he :-) it wasn't entirely serious...
<wolfspraul>
but let's say that happens sometimes, right? :-)
<wpwrak>
i see it a lot of times that i'm spending huge amounts of time and effort to work around equipment limitations
<wolfspraul>
wasn't there a guy at MIT saying he has this super great laser scanner and would scan the NanoNote parts in 30 seconds?
<wpwrak>
i think it depends on how you decide what to buy
<wolfspraul>
I think we are still waiting for anything but that mail from him...
<wpwrak>
if it's "this could be useful", then there's a high risk of it being unused
<wolfspraul>
that's not a lonely exception, in fact that is my expectation right when I read such a mail :-)
<wpwrak>
if it's "it would have helped with this task in the past, and there will be similar ones in the future", then that risk is low
<wpwrak>
heh. those case scans are indeed an interesting area :)
<wpwrak>
i think one of the expensive tools issues are also ritualized purchases. at a lot of places, you can't just go and buy things when you need them. you have to wait for the right moment. and then you suddenly have a ton of cash and need to quickly grab everything you'll need for the next year(s)
<wpwrak>
and then you have managers making engineering purchase decisions instead of engineers. then it can become a matter of prestige to buy the shiniest, whatever it does
<wpwrak>
you weren't around yet at openmoko when they shut down fiwin. you would have loved it ;-)
<wpwrak>
e.g., that stack of GSM protocol analyzers (each the price of a moderately luxurious car) that was just gathering dust in a corner of a room has "buying frenzy" written all over it
<wolfspraul>
yeah, that's why I say. my experience: expensive stuff collects dust, cheap stuff is used to produce results.
<wolfspraul>
it's not the whole truth, but there is some truth in it.
<wolfspraul>
has to do with human psychology, I guess :-)
<wolfspraul>
let's see what happens to the Hamburg machines, I hope they will be used and are easily accessible to as many worthy projects as possible
<wolfspraul>
but just right there the nasty little details start, right? :-)
<wolfspraul>
you wouldn't want some 'unqualified' (?) person break it? :-)
<wpwrak>
yeah, public access is always tricky
<wpwrak>
i prefer the ownership model - i own my tools and nobody else gets to touch them. keeps things simple ;-)
<lars_>
well, you are allowed to use them if you have undergone some basic training
<roh>
lars_: well.. if you need access to a mill in berlin.. holler ;)
<lars_>
roh: i'm neiter in berlin :/
<roh>
ah. right.. you went to muc?
<lars_>
yes
<wpwrak>
now that he's in muc, he can't muck with the toys in hamburg :)
<lars_>
;)
<roh>
hrhr
<roh>
but if you are at it.. we still have space for more cnc machines here at raumfahrtagentur. and the cccmuc would surely also gladly adopt one... and hh would have more free space to build more mills with mills
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
they're probably busy to turn them into a single monster with 8*3 = 24 degrees of freedom. then they can experimentally prove string theory :)