<leftylink>
let's see if we can't do something even worse
<leftylink>
than what I thought was already the worst
<leftylink>
oh no
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<samoersand>
Hi; where can i provide feedback about `$/` and `$\` being deprecated?
<havenwood>
samoersand: Oops, i totally failed to answer that. >.> You can comment on this issue but it'd probably be best to start a new issue, and link to this: https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/14240
<samoersand>
I saw https://bugs.ruby-lang.org/issues/14240 this, but it was made 3 years ago, so it didn't seem like it was going to happen any time soon. But with all the deprecations happening in 3.2
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<sampersand>
cool ok
<havenwood>
An issue is the best way to get feedback. Then if it's not closed and seems viable, you can add it to the next developer meeting for discussions.
<sampersand>
i know flipflops are no longer on the chopping block, so i figured why not my pet globals
<havenwood>
Matz will sometimes just green light from the issue but for bigger stuff seems to usually go to dev meeting.
<havenwood>
haha
<sampersand>
also, without `$/` there's no way to do paragraph mode, no?
<havenwood>
sampersand: Flip flops were saved!
<havenwood>
sampersand: (Couldn't figure out a reasonable way to implement a few things.)
<havenwood>
At least I *think* that's the case. I'm distrusting my memory today...
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<havenwood>
sampersand: Yeah, a "no way to do this anymore" case might indeed save it...
<havenwood>
I don't know.
<sampersand>
i mean i find `$;` and `$,` generally useless outside of golfing or "WTF" moments, but the other two i genuinely use.
<sampersand>
oh, i also found an oddity: If you use a regex literal in an `if` statement, you get a warning but it still matches against `$_`. But if you negate it (eg, `unless !/.../` ), then no warning is logged but you get the same functionality. intended?
<havenwood>
sampersand: I think `!/.../` statement is getting evaluated first to `true` before the warning check.
<sampersand>
another question: why on earth wasy `=` chosen instead of `=>` for endless methods? it makes stuff like `def foo(x) = @stuff[x] or raise "whoops"` not behave as expected
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<havenwood>
sampersand: It was a colon in earlier iterations.
<havenwood>
sampersand: At the time, => was going to be rightward assignment
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<havenwood>
sampersand: It was like: def foo(x): @stuff[x] => @x
<havenwood>
Hmmm
<sampersand>
a colon's even worse .-. and i think using `=>` for endless expressions would be good because it'd both get rid of the lack of setter endless methods, as well as it'd be unambiguous ( `def foo(x)` isn't a valid expression)
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<sampersand>
plus, stuff like `def initialize(x=3) = @x = x` is just hard to parse mentally
<scriptonaut>
what uses less memory, a stack (really just an array that I treat like a stack) or recursion?
<sampersand>
a stack; recursion has to set up a whole new call frame
<scriptonaut>
ok
<scriptonaut>
I will use a stack then, or a queue if I do breadth first traversal
<scriptonaut>
I guess I should calculate the width and depth of my tree to see which one is smaller and go with that
<scriptonaut>
I was thinking since ruby is always pass by value, that recursion might use less memory
<scriptonaut>
it would really help if I could pass by reference to my array
<sampersand>
you're going to be using the value anyways, either in an array or a stack. so the size of it's irrelevant, no?
<sampersand>
what are you trying to pass by reference?
<scriptonaut>
sampersand: I'm going to be using them, but let's say I put it in a queue, and my tree's average level has 30 nodes. That means I need to keep 30 arrays in memory at a time
<scriptonaut>
if the tree is only 6 levels deep, I would only need to keep 6 in memory at at ime
<scriptonaut>
time**
<sampersand>
oh i see what you mean. recursion sounds better then
<scriptonaut>
cuz with breadth first traversal, I scan the tree horizontally before moving down a level
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<scriptonaut>
ya, I'm going to write a method to calculate the max width of my tree
<scriptonaut>
and see which is larger
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<scriptonaut>
each node has a collection of active record objects, on the 2nd level of my tree one of the nodes already has 10,000 records
<sampersand>
you can also use `require 'benchmark'` to test it out
<scriptonaut>
ah cool, I'll look into that, thanks
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<sampersand>
what's the most active ruby community?
<sampersand>
i know of the discord and this irc, but both are sadly somewhat quiet :(
<havenwood>
sampersand: There's a Rails Slack channel but I don't know of any more active Ruby chat community.
<sampersand>
that's really disappointing :(
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<sampersand>
i want `.find_map` :(
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<havenwood>
sampersand: Elixir calls that one Enum.find_value.
<havenwood>
It looks like Matz isn't against it so much as wants concrete use case.
<havenwood>
Still in Feedback after 7 years. :)
<sampersand>
yeah, i posted two examples in the discord. i'll put 'em ehre for posterity
<sampersand>
First: `tokenizers.find_map { _1.parse!(stream) }` —find get the first token that can be created from the stream. Second: `fruits.find_map { TASTINESS[_1] }` — get the tastiness of the first fruit that exists
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<havenwood>
An aside, but I love we can do one-liners now without ;s...
<havenwood>
module Enumerable def find_value(&block) = lazy.filter_map(&block).first end
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<sampersand>
wait what
<sampersand>
that's amazing havenwood
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<panorain>
hi
<havenwood>
panorain: hi
<panorain>
Thank you for allowing me to think about 'Ruby' I think about openSUSE. ok I listen. Ruby lines are nice.
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<xco>
anyone seeing my messages?
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<xco>
sent a message earlier and got no response and my msgs earlier are not in the logs :D :D
<sampersand>
hi
<sampersand>
what was your msg
<sampersand>
xco
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<xco>
oh looks like things are working now :)
<xco>
just a sec
<xco>
msg was
<xco>
i'm playing with this new rightward assignment thing
<baweaver>
Amusingly to use Ractor effectively you end up going real hard functional
<sampersand>
i already use ruby fairly functionally lol
<sampersand>
(which is why `Enumerator#find_map` should exist >.>)
<baweaver>
I'd be willing to bet people start rediscovering Future, Either, Maybe, IO, and State real quick
<sampersand>
idk, it feels like there's a lot of stuff i _should_ like in 3.0, but i dont
<sampersand>
wait, `Either` / `Maybe` exist in Ruby? or am i misinterpreting
<baweaver>
Not quite yet
<sampersand>
lol ruby monads would complete my life
<sampersand>
but, the "header typing system"'s a headache in the first place
<baweaver>
But if they want Ractor to work well those patterns are going to start emerging organically until someone reminds them what monads are.
<baweaver>
Hindley Milner?
<sampersand>
what about it?
<sampersand>
also, there's a 7-year-old issue for deprecating `$/` and `$\` , and i want to not have them deprecated; should i make a new issue, or reply to the old one?
<baweaver>
Soutaro is at Square too so we can bribe him into adding some support for more sum and product types :D
<sampersand>
i use `$/` and `$\` _all the time_ (idc about `$;` lol)
<baweaver>
Could make a new one, but who knows.
<sampersand>
`$,` could go either way
<baweaver>
(Soutaro is behind Steep and RBS)
<sampersand>
im new to contributing in the first place
<sampersand>
i literally just activated my ruby bugs account during our convo
<baweaver>
Speaking of I should really do an article on how Steep and friends work later.
<baweaver>
Well I should get some sleep tonight
<baweaver>
'night!
<sampersand>
cya!
<sampersand>
nice article btw
<sampersand>
i _hate_ the `=` syntax for single line functions wow. i wish it was `=>`
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<leah2>
but => is assignment! it should be <= :p
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<Borg>
howdy
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<Borg>
I have question about Data_Make_Struct class argument.. Im doing some simple module... and I want pass struct to ruby (no class.. just bounch of data) so it have no initializers.. and Im not sure what I can put in there... I used 0 as argument.. and it works.
<Borg>
but.. I dont see anything in documentation about it.. is it legit use?
<leah2>
it's literally been decades since i last used the C API, but in the ruby source you find cases where Data_Make_Struct is used with 0
<Borg>
oh.. cool.. them its legit.. thx
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<al2o3-cr>
def x = 42 => :x => m; [x, m] # endless method definition, one-line pattern matching and right-hand assignment all in one.
<al2o3-cr>
WOW
* leah2
goes back to perl :p
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<Borg>
leah2: yuck^5 ;)
<Borg>
leah2: last time I touched perl.. was like 15 years ago? or so.. and I decided.. enof... and I found ruby and never looked back :D
<leah2>
fun fact: i properly learned perl after using ruby for a few years
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<Borg>
okey.. now something more complicated.. is there a way to register Struct from C?
<Borg>
lets say, struct point { int x;int y; }; and I want it to be registered in ruby as Point struct, aka Point=Struct.new :x, :y
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<Borg>
probably no shortcut here.. I need to use full flegged Class...
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<Borg>
or not.. I can try use rb_define_attr()
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<FrankyCyborg>
compared to the "usual" configure, make, make check / test, make install routine when installing other software, is there an equivalent for the "make check / test" -step when installing ruby gems with the 'gem' program? like running a testsuite, checking for missing (optional) dependencies etc.
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<adam12>
FrankyCyborg: Not really.
<adam12>
FrankyCyborg: Most gems don't ship tests/specs, and some that have don't anymore (ie. Sequel).
<FrankyCyborg>
so... in the end it's like I have to trust that everything works out
<FrankyCyborg>
I would see errors (if there are any in those gems) much later after installing, let's say 700 of the 'basic' gems, which are widely used by other gems - hm, well, if that's it in the ruby world .. ok
<adam12>
FrankyCyborg: Are you basing this on experiences in another language?
<adam12>
I'm not sure I've ever seen 700 dependencies _ever_.
<adam12>
Maybe a couple dozen.
<adam12>
If you're installing software, the software should be testing it's dependencies.
<adam12>
FrankyCyborg: Definitely a bunch, but in practice, only 4 _direct_ dependencies when using `gem install`.
<adam12>
(those 4 probably have some transitive dependencies).
<adam12>
But that's a great example. To run tests, you'd likely need the other 36 + their dependencies.
<adam12>
Not sure I'd want that many pulled in, just to gem install in production.
<FrankyCyborg>
what I mean is, that it's "normal", when you install perl and then all those modules, which are usually required, let's say for XML::Parser, which in turn is used by other third-party non-perl software, you end up with about 300 perl packages installed (out of the, I don't know how many thousands there are on cpan.org)
<FrankyCyborg>
so, I expect it would be similar with ruby (or python, or erlang, haskell, ..)
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<FrankyCyborg>
therefore there are some modules, which are "usually" there / to be installed, when you want something like a "minimum complete" environment in ruby on a machine - and since I just a DESTDIR installation approach for distribution at a later time, I was just wondering, if, like it is with perl modules and most other software so far, there is check / test phase with ruby gems - but if there is usually not, then it's ok, I would stop my
<FrankyCyborg>
investigation about that now
<adam12>
FrankyCyborg: Ruby relies on Semver + good packaging principles more than running tests on install, if I was to wage an opinion.
<adam12>
FrankyCyborg: The gem you provided as an example relies on a bunch of database-related dev dependencies. These wouldn't really be testable easily during the install process, so I think it's generally just easier to rely on semver+CI.
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<adam12>
Not running the full test suite (ie. no mysql database available) would just be a false sense of security anyways.
<FrankyCyborg>
interesting approach of ruby.. regarding the testsuites (of other software): I run it always (if possible) to have a log about it and to detect missing (optional) dependencies - but main reason is to be able to check the log and maybe compare it with those from other machines/os
<FrankyCyborg>
it also means, that I can now remove/comment any lines in my packaging script about trying to invoke a test/check routine, when it comes to ruby modules.
<adam12>
FrankyCyborg: It's rare that I run into optional dependencies in practice, at least for something I `gem install`. Applications built are different, but they are deployed differently as well.
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<adam12>
There's actually no real support for "optional dependencies" as far as the package manager goes. It's either a dependency to run, or a dependency for development. I wonder if other package managers offer a more granular specification.
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<adam12>
Maybe an optional dependency could use `Kernel.gem` to restrict what it supports...
<JanHebler[m]>
I never experience a missing dependeny with ruby gems. The dependencies should noted in the gem itself. And if the developer is to lazy to write the correct dependencies, i hardly doubt that he is diligent enough to wrote meaningful tests anyway.
<adam12>
I think there's a spec field for defining optional deps, but it's freeform. Like `requires libpq >= x` or something.
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<FrankyCyborg>
so.. what would happen, if try to install hyper-model for example and no dependency of those which are listed on that webpage is present on the system?
<FrankyCyborg>
would 'gem' happily install it or start complaining?
<adam12>
FrankyCyborg: It will install them for you.
<adam12>
(the 4, not the 36)
<adam12>
By default; you can turn this off of course, but default is to resolve and install dependencies.
<FrankyCyborg>
ah see, that's what must never happen (in this project of mine) - it's required that I install each software for its own to have a sane and comparable log file
<FrankyCyborg>
must be the '--ignore-dependencies' parameter to 'gem' as it seems
<JanHebler[m]>
Then maybe it is better you go with bundler.
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<havenwood>
Cubixusin[m]: Please be careful to only paste a message once. You're spamming.
<havenwood>
Cubixusin[m]: Could you please show the error output?
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<Cubixusin[m]>
<havenwood "Cubixusin: Could you please show"> sorry,
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<Cubixusin[m]>
havenwood: i change `db = Sequel.connect(CONFIG[:database])` to `db = Sequel.sqlite(CONFIG[:database])` and datebase was created. Someone can explain ?
<havenwood>
Cubixusin[m]: You still haven't shown the error, as far as I've seen. Maybe I missed it?
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<havenwood>
Cubixusin[m]: Are you getting an error backtrace in your output? If so, please share it with us. Or is it hanging rather than giving you an error?
<Cubixusin[m]>
<havenwood "Cubixusin: You still haven't sho"> `NoMethodError: undefined method `to_sym' for nil:NilClass`
<havenwood>
Cubixusin[m]: That was the full output???
<havenwood>
No backtrace whatsoever?
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<havenwood>
Cubixusin[m]: P.S. There's a #sequel channel here and a Google Group too.