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<karstensrage>
who
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<karstensrage>
can someone point me to a surprisingly well written library so i can get a feel for what good ruby code looks like
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<karstensrage>
i came across this, and i know its sarcastic, but its hard to tell what all is sarcastic except the same stuff people complain about wrt Java
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<davidokner>
Hi
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<davidokner>
I'm having trouble understanding the difference between a variable and an object in practice. I understand the difference in concept, but in actual code I don't see how a variable can not be an object in some instances.
<davidokner>
As I understand it a variable is just a pointer.
<davidokner>
So take this example.
<davidokner>
text = "#{name.capitalize} has a health of #{health}."
<davidokner>
The tutorial I'm reading says that "name" is an object and "text" is a variable.
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<davidokner>
But, wasn't name a variable too when you created it?
<Spitfire>
Everything is an object.
* Spitfire
mindsplode
<davidokner>
Spitfire: But what about pointers to objects.
<Spitfire>
Everything is an object except pointers to objects.
<davidokner>
Ok, that is what I'm trying to get the difference.
<RubyPanther>
davidokner: a variable is like a pointer, but since everything is an object it is just thought of as a generic container.
<davidokner>
In my tutorial is says that "text" is a variable and that "name" is an object.
<davidokner>
text = "#{name.capitalize} has a health of #{health}."
<RubyPanther>
So when you are using a variable, you often talk about it as "being" the object. Just as if you have a box of foo in your hand, you might point at the box and call it foo.
<davidokner>
So, I never get to address the object directly then, right?
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<shadoi>
it's best to think of variables as things that become objects when they are assigned.
<RubyPanther>
No. Unless you're using the C API...
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<shadoi>
davidokner: in your example text becomes a string object when you assign it.
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<davidokner>
shadoi: It creates a new object.
<RubyPanther>
davidokner: in the example text and name are both variables, and like all variables they hold an object.
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<shadoi>
sure, creates, becomes.
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<davidokner>
Look at this example.
<davidokner>
my_favorite_movie = "Goonies"
<RubyPanther>
name.capitalize is a local variable name and the object it contains is receiving the message :capitalize, or, is having the instance method :capitalize called on it
<davidokner>
In that case you didn't create a new object you just pointed the second pointer to the same object.
<RubyPanther>
But you normally don't talk about the variable, just the object, because there are no explicit pointers, which is to say, everything is pass-by-reference
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<davidokner>
I get it, but I'm aslo confused.
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<davidokner>
It is because of the example.
<RubyPanther>
It sounds like the example sucks. Use _why's poignant guide, or the pickaxe book
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<davidokner>
Well the example is good. It is just that if I don't understand the underlying stuff %100 I know I don't get it.
<fowl>
davidokner: it is a new string, but it doesnt call String.new
<davidokner>
How does it not?
<davidokner>
Ok, well I think you can do the exact same thing by doing String.new("xyz")
<davidokner>
movie = "Goonies" creates the same result as
<davidokner>
movie = String.new("Goonies")
<davidokner>
It seemed to me that ruby just allowed the shorthand.
<fowl>
the same result doesnt mean they are the same thing
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: do you understand the idea of an object literal?
<davidokner>
I don't think I can define that
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: also, do you see that String.new("Goonies") is taking a string literal "Goonies" as a parameter? :P
<davidokner>
I can define string literal
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<davidokner>
Yes
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<RubyPanther>
string literals are optimized, as are the string interpolations
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: great, so you then see that "Goonies" is in no sense a short-hand for String.new("Goonies") as String.new("Goonies") requires the use of your so-called short-hand itself
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<davidokner>
I don't get it
<RubyPanther>
String.new("foo") is actually redundant, you're creating a String instance from a literal and passing it to String.new which probably calls the #to_str on it
<charliesome>
davidokner: "Goonies" is a string literal, String.new("foo") is passing a string literal to a method call on a constant
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<davidokner>
What are you supposed to pass to string.new then?
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: String.new("foo") is just the same as "foo".dup
<RubyPanther>
You don't have to worry about classes being stored in constants unless you're meta-programming, you can just think of them as classes
<davidokner>
Are you saying you are supposed to use single quotes in String.new ?
<davidokner>
String.new('test') that is not a string literal because it is not double quotes?
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: String.new() is essentially useless, forget about it
<davidokner>
ok
<RubyPanther>
You don't pass anything to String.new because you don't call it. You either have a string literal, or an object, and an object you would say obj.to_s not String.new(obj)
<davidokner>
Ok, but I do have to realize that when you to some = "string" you are creating a new object
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<davidokner>
So if I do
<davidokner>
movie = "Goonies"
<davidokner>
And then.
<davidokner>
my_favorite_movie = movie
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<davidokner>
It copies by value the refence stored in the pointer "movie"
<charliesome>
both of those variables are pointing to the same string object
<davidokner>
Yes, I know
<davidokner>
Is there a way to make on variable point to another?
<davidokner>
"one variable"
<charliesome>
no
<davidokner>
So it would work like this.
<RubyPanther>
No, it copies the reference, there is no such thing as pass-by-value in Ruby, and there are no explicit references. There is just one kind of container, variables (that come in different scopes) and their semantics can only be as references.
<davidokner>
my_favorite_movie -> movie -> "Goonies"
<davidokner>
instead of
<davidokner>
movie -> "Goonies"
<davidokner>
my_favorite_movie -> "Goonies"
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<charliesome>
you cannot take a reference to a variable in ruby
<RubyPanther>
If you want to copy a value, you can't copy a value of a reference, you don't get explicit references, and you can't copy a value, you have to call some method that creates a new object and copies the values it carries
<davidokner>
You would have to copy the the reference of the variable to the other variable.
<RubyPanther>
You can't copy a reference because there are no explicit references
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<davidokner>
What happens if I lose the reference to an object? Can I get back to it?
<davidokner>
Say, if I had the object_id for example.
<davidokner>
What happens to that object once no variable points to it anymore?
<charliesome>
it gets garbage collected
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: You can get it back
<davidokner>
Yeah, I thoguht so
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: ObjectSpace._id2ref
<RubyPanther>
You normally don't say "reference" you would say, "the variable points to an instance of Foo" or some such thing. bar = foo = 42 # "foo and bar point to the same object"
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<RubyPanther>
the _semantics_ are only by-reference, but there _are_no_references_
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: that will raise an exception if that object has already been gc'd. Or you could end up with a totally different object which has been allocated the old object's id
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<davidokner>
oh, ok. Not a good idea
<RubyPanther>
Even in the C API, you have a VALUE type and you have to call additional methods to get back a reference to a structure. On the Ruby side that is completely invisible and opaque.
<davidokner>
Only solution is to change the object, instead of creating a new object with a new value and reassigning the variable to that new object.
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<RubyPanther>
davidokner: methods often change instance state in-place.
<RubyPanther>
The problem is even thinking of references or copy-by-value. Better is to not even go there. You have containers, and in those containers, objects. Objects carry state.
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<davidokner>
But, I can call a method on a variable and it will pass that method to the object
<davidokner>
I start getting confused.
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: think of variables as just nicknames for a person
<RubyPanther>
You can always write all your Ruby in C though, if you are attached to references.
<fowl>
davidokner: what's your programming background just curious
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: it's the same person, just a different name for him
<davidokner>
I'm not. I don't want any C.
<RubyPanther>
rb_funcall(rb_mKernel,rb_intern("puts"), 1, rb_str_new2("C is fun"));
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: so, okner.read_a_book() is the same as dave.read_a_book() is teh same as davidokner.read_a_book()
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<banisterfiend>
davidokner: okner, dave, davidokner are just different nicknames/names for the same dude
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<davidokner>
Different variables, that all point to the same object.
<davidokner>
But that could only happend if I did.
<davidokner>
dave = okner = davidokner
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<banisterfiend>
davidokner: the variables dont 'point' at anything, they're just different names for the same object. Internally, there's just a hashtable that connects a variable name to an object
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<davidokner>
I was thinking you wouldn't want to destroy that object because something else would be calling it, but that would only happen if you alliased one variable to another.
<charliesome>
as a general rule.. if there's >1 reference to a string, you shouldn't mutate it
<RubyPanther>
We don't normally do that, it would be silly I would just say foo = "World"
<RubyPanther>
Containers are happy to hold a new value.
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<davidokner>
So that would mean it is also not very common to aliase one variable to another?
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<davidokner>
Because that is the only way you would create a situation where you needed to use .replace
<charliesome>
you're not aliasing one variable to another, you've just got two variables pointing to the same objecvt
<charliesome>
which is fairly common
<davidokner>
Ok, I guess so. But You would have to update all those variables individually.
<RubyPanther>
You can't alias a variable because a variable is _only_ a container, it is not an object, and therefore it can't be pointed to
<charliesome>
davidokner: there's no good reason to use String#replace really
<davidokner>
So if you had a bunch of variables pointing to the same object.
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<davidokner>
If you didn't use .replace, you would have to update all those variables, isntead of just updating the object once.
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<charliesome>
davidokner: if you're in a position where you can 'update all those variables', why don't you just have one variable
<fowl>
davidokner: you would not often keep multiple references to one string, its just weird
<ryanf>
yes, but it's much more common for that to be a bad thing instead of a good thing
<davidokner>
Because if you created anew object all the other variables would be pointing to the old object
<fowl>
totally possible, but weird
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<davidokner>
oh ok
<ryanf>
that's kind of like saying
<ryanf>
if you have a bunch of variables set to 10
<ryanf>
it's good to be able to change all of them to 20 at once
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<ryanf>
instead of having to go around changing them separately
<RubyPanther>
davidokner: You would have an object that itself had a list of these other objects, you wouldn't have a bunch of variables sitting around being important by themselves.
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<davidokner>
Is it really common to have a bunch of variables all pointing to the same object? Why would need more than one variable pointing to the same object?
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: what's your programming background?
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<davidokner>
I never got too deep into programming. I took a computer science degree program and they covered things like c, assembly, scheme, c++
<banisterfiend>
davidokner: so you have a degree in compsci? :P
<davidokner>
I do
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<banisterfiend>
well, you really should already know this stuff like the back of your hand ;)
<banisterfiend>
weird
<banisterfiend>
anyway bbs dinner
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<davidokner>
I don't know programming very well. But I do know about pass by reference and value.
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<davidokner>
That is why I was trying to understand what ruby is doing in terms I was familiar with.
<banisterfiend>
thats kind of weird, after a degree in compsi you really should know programming pretty well
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<davidokner>
Not me, I hated it
<davidokner>
Also, we never spent much time on any one thing so I never got very good at it
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<davidokner>
And programming in c was very hard to do much
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<davidokner>
Each semester was a different language or something and all different, so I couldn't really build a programming skill
<davidokner>
They started out with c, then assembly, then some c++ and then scheme, then it was over.
<davidokner>
A computer science program is probably the last way I could learn programming.
<davidokner>
But we certainly didn't learn Ruby, so I don't know these things.
<davidokner>
I did ask some general questions, but that is because I don't think the programs I wrote exposed me to the general experience of what I would encounter as a programmer outside of school.
<fowl>
thats pretty crazy that you can get a degree and end up not really knowing how to program
<fowl>
nice system, eh
<davidokner>
It is not a software engineering degree.
<davidokner>
I guess you could say I did learn how to program, but not in a very practical way you could use on a job.
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<davidokner>
They spend time teaching you the science behind building a shell and a lot of systems programming, not application programming.
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<davidokner>
And a lot of the degree is not programming. And you learning assembly and scheme don't really help.
<davidokner>
If somebody wanted to learn programming I'd suggest to study on their own and not get a degree in computer science.
<davidokner>
My school didn't have a software engineering degree
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<davidokner>
I haven't programmed much since I graduated so I'm going back now and trying to learn the right way.
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<davidokner>
We couldn't use .net, IDE's, non-basic libraries, it was not a lot of fun. Just a lot of re-inventing the wheel all the time.
<davidokner>
I'm not a fan of computer science as a degree.
<davidokner>
Did you all get computer science degree's?
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<davidcelis>
yes
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<davidcelis>
every one of us
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<Hanmac1>
davidokner ... for my job i learned how to write an Http server ... in C :P
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<davidokner>
Any of the people asking me, did you get a degree is CS?
<davidokner>
"in CS?"
<shaman42_>
i did.
<shaman42_>
i am doing degree in cs:go now.
<shaman42_>
i have like half of the achievments already
<davidokner>
At least it cost less than a CS degree
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<davidokner>
So anyway, now I'm going to educate myself and do a better job than a CS degree could have.
<Mon_Ouie>
It can also evaluate expression into a live Ruby session (like C-x C-e does in lisp with Slime)
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<banisterfiend>
Mon_Ouie: cool, so you have a server running in the process ?
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<Mon_Ouie>
Yes
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<matti>
;]
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<ENK|2>
hello
<matti>
Hello
<ENK|2>
I try to create a model by 2 references to user "rails g model Work user:references user:references" what is te correct method to create it? (user create a work for other user)
<ENK|2>
hello matti
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<Spooner>
ENK|2 : #rubyonrails or #rails might know better than us here.
<ENK|2>
sure I try it on #rails but not resolve it :(
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<shevy>
matti, help with RubyOS pls
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<seanstickle>
RubyOS eh?
<matti>
?
<shevy>
seanstickle YEAH
<shevy>
with as much ruby as possible
<shevy>
(and secretly C too but never admit this officially)
<matti>
shevy: I am not a Ruby developer / programmer. Ask Mon_Ouie ;]
<shevy>
no he speaks only french
<seanstickle>
matti: you don't program in Ruby? what an odd channel for you to be on.
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<shevy>
perhaps he is a #perl spy
<matti>
seanstickle: I am here just because I am one of many gruppies that follow shevy
<seanstickle>
Ah, that makes sense
<shevy>
hmm who was the guy here who recently started with ruby, coming from perl...
<matti>
I knew you'd understand.
<matti>
seanstickle: I am trying to find Ruby-oriented job with very little success ;d
<matti>
seanstickle: Therefore, I cannot call myself a Ruby Developer.
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<charliesome>
shevy: rubyos?
<matti>
charliesome: shevy is insane ;d
<matti>
charliesome: Just smile and wave.
<matti>
;d
<shevy>
charliesome yeah, an operating system written in Ruby
<charliesome>
shevy: sounds interesting, go on
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<matti>
There was an attepmpt to write one on Python some time ago.
<Mon_Ouie>
matti: By that definition, I’m not developer at all :p
<seanstickle>
Well, Symbolics machines had a very nice Lisp OS
<shevy>
charliesome there isn't much to detail :(
<seanstickle>
I don't see any reason not to have a Ruby OS
<seanstickle>
It would be delightful interesting
<charliesome>
i've written one for javascript
<charliesome>
it was pretty fun
<matti>
Mon_Ouie: Oh noes.
<matti>
Mon_Ouie: ;]
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<matti>
We unedd ulsif ;d
<matti>
need*
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<shevy>
lol
<shevy>
we uneed ulsif
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<matti>
;p
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<weeb1e>
Can anyone please help me with mkmf? I can't get find_header to find the header I need to inlcude
<weeb1e>
s/inlcude/include
<weeb1e>
It just says "no"
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<Kneferilis>
quite new in ruby
<Kneferilis>
a simple example of a class in ruby?
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<seanstickle>
class Foo; end
<Hanmac>
weeb1e show me your mkmf.log
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<weeb1e>
Hanmac: I'm busy trying to work out how to convert a couple lines from a sample Makefile to use mkmf, can I paste you the sample Makefile?
<weeb1e>
I have never used mkmf before
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<Kneferilis>
seanstickle: thanks, I need an example with a couple of variable and a method
<Hanmac>
weeb1e when you run it, it creates an mkmf.log file ... i want this too
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: Well I figured out I was doing to completely wrong, but from what I see you need to nest certain methods inside with_cppflags blocks, but I'm not exactly sure about it
<weeb1e>
Kneferilis: It would be far faster for you to just google some simple ruby examples
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: I need some pointers on how to rewrite that with mkmf, I am completely lost.
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: The only thing I know how to do with mkmf is dir_config(extension_name); create_makefile(extension_name)
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<weeb1e>
Else I must drop mkmf and write the Makefile by hand, which I'd rather not do if possible...
<weeb1e>
I have not been able to find many examples for mkmf
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<Hanmac>
you said that find_header says no, then there must be an mkmf.log file
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: It says no because I have no idea how to give it the paths that are in the sample Makefile I pasted for you...
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<weeb1e>
Can you please tell me how to define those include paths with mkmf?
<weeb1e>
Or anyone for that matter, I'd really appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction here...
<Hanmac>
is possible use pkg_config
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<weeb1e>
Sigh, how does that help me? Do you even understand what I'm trying to do?
<weeb1e>
I thought pasting you the 3 line example Makefile would make it obvious
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<weeb1e>
I can't believe it is so hard to find out how to use mkmf to include a lib from another path, there is no real documentation or examples
<Hanmac>
find_libary("name","main","/usr/lib")
<weeb1e>
Bleh
<Hanmac>
imo it seems that you first need to know what you realy want ... and you should notic when someone is helping you ... and mkmf is NOT designed for making Testapps ... its for c-ext
<weeb1e>
If anyone here knows how to use mkmf, I would really appreciate it if you could tell me how to rewrite the following 2 lines: CPPFLAGS = -m32 -I"/path/to/header/dir" \n LDFLAGS = -m32 -ldl ../Resources/Libs/Linux32/steamclient.a
<Hanmac>
i know how to use mkmf ...
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<weeb1e>
Hanmac: I need to write an extension that uses this library, I have a 3 line Makefile for a sample application which builds fine. I cannot build my ruby extension without the above two files being included in the Makefile that mkmf builds
<Hanmac>
and i said you that you make me a pastie of mkmf.log
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<Kneferilis>
I am building various simulation games, one is in ruby and tidesdk, is there something wrong with this code: http://pastebin.com/LHfcqSzX ?
<Mon_Ouie>
The fact it uses global variables for everything
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: Ah sorry, it was not a path issue. "CSteamID.h:30:22: error: iostream: No such file or directory"
<weeb1e>
But I still don't know how to fix that
<weeb1e>
It is a path issue, it just isn't an issue finding that header
<Hanmac>
its not a path issue ... its an issue that your ruby is to dump
<weeb1e>
So again, I'm pretty sure I need to use something equivalent to -m32 -I"/path/to/header/dir"
<Mon_Ouie>
$rank should probably be an instance variable, @rank; $chance doesn't seem to be needed at all; $criminal should just be a local variable (again, if needed)
<seanstickle>
Kneferilis: yes, don't use global variables
<Hanmac>
weeb1e add with_cflags("-x c++"){ .... } around your find methods
<seanstickle>
This isn't BASIC
<Kneferilis>
seanstickle: I don't know how to use variables in a class
<seanstickle>
Kneferilis: perhaps you should read a book on Ruby
<seanstickle>
Kneferilis: this stuff isn't something you intuit from the universe
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<weeb1e>
Hanmac: The complier failed to generate an executable file. (RuntimeError)\nYou have to install development tools first.
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: Any idea what development tools I must be missing?
<Hanmac>
is your g++ installed?
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: g++ is already the newest version.
<Kneferilis>
thanks
<Hanmac>
weeb1er ruby-full is installed too?
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: /tmp/ccAxRqTR.o:(.eh_frame+0x12): undefined reference to `__gxx_personality_v0'\ncollect2: ld returned 1 exit status
<weeb1e>
That is from mkmf.log
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: I installed the full ruby from source
<Mon_Ouie>
The 3rd argument of rb_define_method, as said in the error
<Hanmac>
ruby1.9 is inteligent enough to detect C++ when you have cpp files ... ruby1.8 is far to dump
<weeb1e>
I am using 1.9, not 1.8
<weeb1e>
I guess I'll try find a newer example extension...
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<Mon_Ouie>
That's not related to recency, it's related to language; it's one of the few practical examples showing that C++ is not a superset of C.
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<weeb1e>
Mon_Ouie: Well could you please tell me how method_test should be casted? I have hardly used C in years and C++ in even longer. rb_define_method(SteamInterface, "test", method_test, 0);
<Mon_Ouie>
Just using the type indicated by the compiler error
<weeb1e>
Bleh, now the init function cannot be found
<weeb1e>
It was found just fine before, but I assume that was because it was being built as C not C++?
<Hanmac>
add extern "c" before the method
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<weeb1e>
So the init function cannot be built as C++?
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<Hanmac>
yes, but the other stuff can
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: error: language string â"c"â not recognized
<weeb1e>
Heh
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<Mon_Ouie>
extern "C", capitalization matters
* weeb1e
goes back to his corner
<Mon_Ouie>
Also notice this directive is just about symbol name exportation, it doesn't prevent you from using C++'s features
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<weeb1e>
Right, ok
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<weeb1e>
Hanmac: steamclient.a isn't a header, so I can't use find_header to find it can I?
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<weeb1e>
I don't know how with_ldlflags could be used to find that file like you would with -ldl
<Hanmac>
find_library
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<weeb1e>
mkmf really abstracts everything :)
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<weeb1e>
A ruby C extension should have access to LD_LIBRARY_PATH, right?
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<weeb1e>
Hanmac: Are you still around?
<weeb1e>
I am pretty sure I still need a way to add the -ldl argument from mkmf :(
<Hanmac>
why do you need to play with LD_LIBRARY_PATH?
<Hanmac>
weeb1e: find_library("dl","main")
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: The only way the library can load the shared libraries is using LD_LIBRARY_PATH and without that -ldl arguement pointing to that .a file it is not loading the shared libraries even with LD_LIBRARY_PATH correctly set
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<weeb1e>
Hanmac: That doesn't help either
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<weeb1e>
The make line it generates is g++ -shared -o steam_interface.so steam_interface.o -L. -L/usr/local/lib -Wl,-R/usr/local/lib -L. -rdynamic -Wl,-export-dynamic -ldl -lpthread -lrt -ldl -lcrypt -lm -lc
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<weeb1e>
That is missing "-m32 -ldl /path/to/Resources/Libs/Linux32/steamclient.a"
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<Hanmac>
you can add the stuff directly without mkmf functions $LDFLAGS << " -m32 -ldl ../Resources/Libs/Linux32/steamclient.a"
<weeb1e>
Ah
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<horrror>
does anybody know a good NLP lib that doesn't require JRuby?
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<weeb1e>
Hanmac: Then how do I add -m32 to the mkmf methods? Since now it cannot compile it as x64 with the 32bit libs
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<Hanmac>
hm yeah ... you need an x64 lib of streamclient :(
<Hanmac>
horror hm i found libalglib-dev it has * Solvers (linear and "nonlinear") ... i think that is what you want?
<weeb1e>
Hanmac: Why? Is ruby compiled as x64?
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<weeb1e>
Hanmac: Why exactly can't I compile the extension as m32?
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<Hanmac>
weeb1e i think you can, but i thon think it will work ... you need libs matching your achitecture
<Hanmac>
i mean i dont think it will work
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<weeb1e>
Hanmac: Unless theres something specific about ruby extensions, it should work fine as m32, providing I can figure out how to get mkmf to build a m32 Makefile
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<weeb1e>
These libs are in use right now on multiple of my x64 linux servers and work just fine
<Hanmac>
debian/ubuntu has multiarch support ... that means you could run 32bit apps in a 64bit system ... but the 64binary needs 64libs and 32binary need 32libs ... it seems that you try to mix them
<weeb1e>
Yeah I know that, so the question is what is ruby compiled as
<Hanmac>
ruby is comiled as system arch
<Hanmac>
so on a 64bit system you has "normaly" an 64bit ruby
<weeb1e>
Damn, it is x86-64
<weeb1e>
Well this was a huge waste of time :(
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<Hanmac>
with a bit tricking you could install an other version ... but it may not what you want ...
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<Hanmac>
arubin but MriRuby and Rubinius are more cool when you want C-extensions
<arubin>
I did not know that "coolness" was one of the criteria.
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<arubin>
Rubinius also implements 1.8.7.
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<Hanmac>
arubin there is also rubinus for 1.9.3+ ... i think
<Hanmac>
currently my gems only support mri or rubinius ... NO Jruby
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<headius>
if they're C extensions, I can understand that…but if they're just Ruby there's no reason JRuby couldn't be supported
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<headius>
C extensions are a blight on Ruby, if you ask me
<headius>
pretty much every advancement in performance, threading, security that could be made in Ruby *can't* be done on MRI because of the C API
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<arubin>
headius: They are a necessity if one wishes to take advantage of the thousands of C libraries out there.
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<headius>
I'm not opposed to native extensions in general…just to MRI's API for implementing them
<headius>
you can use FFI today to call C libraries (in JRuby as well), and get similar performance to a C extension
<headius>
and with a more reasonable C API, all Ruby impls could support native extensions
<Hanmac>
headius i dont think that FFI works on C++ (and all libs i bind are in c++)
<headius>
MRI's C API is the #1 thing holding Ruby back
<headius>
FFI can't bind C++ classes directly, no, but a non-MRI-API C stub could wrap C++ easily…the same way you write an MRI-API extension now
<headius>
i.e. write a C wrapper around the C++ that's not specific to MRI's API, and then bind it with FFI…it would work anywhere FFI works
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<headius>
honestly, I have no problem with native extensions and I fully recognize there's a lot of native libraries out there that are useful…but MRI's API cripples Ruby's future
<headius>
I'd actually be curious what wx lets you do that SWT doesn't do
<headius>
SWT works just fine with JRuby, across platforms, with binary builds and tons of users
<seanstickle>
Avoid Java, I'd reckon.
<Hanmac>
i try to avoid java
<seanstickle>
Boom.
<Hanmac>
they keep breaking the apps ...
<headius>
seanstickle: you're like…psychic
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<arubin>
Breaking which apps?
<headius>
"they" "apps"?
<seanstickle>
I can see 2 seconds into the future
<headius>
I have no idea what that means
<seanstickle>
Which is less useful psychically than you'd imagine
<headius>
seanstickle: use your powers for good
<Hanmac>
last time i make a patch update of java and eclipse is not working anymore ... that should NOT happen on a patch update!
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<headius>
reminds me of the Mitchell and Webb skit where he has telekinetic powers…but only for cookies/biscuits
<conor_ireland>
I can see 2 seconds into any ruby programs future - I see it still running slowly
<headius>
conor_ireland: you must not be running JRuby ;)
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<headius>
Hanmac: good point…no other runtimes ever accidentally break
<conor_ireland>
headius: No, that runs on the JVM and is a lot faster than "base" ruby
<Hanmac>
conor_ireland the last time i make a test with my 3D test app i get more >200FPS
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<conor_ireland>
Hanmac: yep
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<headius>
I've got nothing against MRI…I have just seen so many potential improvements killed because they couldn't be made compatible with MRI's C API
<Hanmac>
can Jruby do that too?
<headius>
Hanmac: do what? 200FPS?
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<Hanmac>
yeah :P
<headius>
I'm sure it can…JRuby's faster than MRI, and there's several OpenGL bindings for JVM
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<headius>
hell, I've seen apps that didn't use OpenGL and did all rastering of 3D entirely in Ruby in JRuby get reasonable FPS
<Hanmac>
opengl itself is lame ... i bind entire Graphic systems like Ogre ... including ParticleSystem or other cool stuff
<headius>
there's several other GL toolkits for JVM that a re more recently maintained, also
<Hanmac>
hm its for java not for ruby
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<arubin>
Hanmac: JRuby can use Java libraries.
<PetePorty>
Hey guys; objectively speaking, do you consider Ruby to be easier to use than Python? Python was the first language I managed to learn and have played with it a little; I know nothing of Ruby. Is it worth it to swap now to Ruby or should I go on until I'm proficient with Python before changing languages? Thanks in advance for your anshwers. ^_^
<headius>
directly, even
<headius>
calling Java libraries from JRuby is like calling any Ruby library
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<arubin>
PetePorty: Which language do you think that the people in this channel prefer?
<shevy>
PetePorty, I think both languages are ~of similar complexity, ruby perhaps a bit more complex than python as it allows more freedom
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<PetePorty>
arubin: I'm assuming most people who are on IRC channels for programming languages are on more than one at a time.
<PetePorty>
shevy: thanks. :)
<seanstickle>
PetePorty: it doesn't really matter
<seanstickle>
PetePorty: it's a coin toss
<Hanmac>
PetePorty imo ruby and python are like twinsisters ... but ruby is a bit meaner :P
<PetePorty>
Oh?
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<PetePorty>
lol
<seanstickle>
PetePorty: hell, pick up APL first, that's what I would recommend.
<PetePorty>
O.o
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<seanstickle>
PetePorty: or C++ if you're more of a compiled stuff kind of person.
<seanstickle>
PetePorty: and Perl has a lot of power and beauty as well.
<seanstickle>
PetePorty: it doesn't really matter that much.
<PetePorty>
Well, I'm an exceedingly lazy person, seeing both Python and C++ code, I decided Python seemed friendlier.
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<seanstickle>
PetePorty: pick one, learn it, do interesting things with it.
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<arubin>
gour: So to answer your question, wait a few years for Rust to mature.
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<conor_ireland>
Python has two things against it imo - passing self and whitespace
<seanstickle>
Everything has some downsides.
<seanstickle>
If it didn't, everyone would be using the same thing.
<PetePorty>
True. :p
<shevy>
no no it is not a coin toss at all
<seanstickle>
Of course, part of the problem is that different people rate different things as downsides.
<shevy>
the biggest difference is the philosophy
<shevy>
yeah
<conor_ireland>
seanstickle: two major downsides, obviously everything has downsides
<shevy>
I hate explicit self
<seanstickle>
I for one have no issue with the whitespace, some people think it's a real problem.
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<seanstickle>
I like typing also.
<shevy>
what about explicit self?
<seanstickle>
Doesn't really bother me very much.
<arubin>
shevy: That seems like an incredibly minor thing to get hung up on.
<shevy>
arubin I cant stand objects that aren't self-aware
<conor_ireland>
what annoys me about the self is Guidos pointless answers as to why it is still in the language
<seanstickle>
Closing methods with "end" struck me as VBA-like when I started with Ruby
<seanstickle>
Now I don't care about that so much either
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<seanstickle>
I do like a nice functional language. I am less keen on OO-with-state
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<arubin>
conor_ireland: Imagine that you are in charge of a language and all these geeks are whining about ridiculous bullshit.
<shevy>
the whitespace is the only thing guido said he would do different if he were to start from zero
<seanstickle>
And I love Scheme.
<conor_ireland>
arubin: yeah, he is the first person to do that sure
<seanstickle>
LOVE it.
<shevy>
(scm('is not so bad yeah
<seanstickle>
To me, it's like saying "should I learn Japanese or Icelandic?"
<seanstickle>
Whichever you want, depending on what you are looking to do.
<seanstickle>
Learning Icelandic to watch anime is probably a not-great choice.
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<arubin>
seanstickle: Ruby and Python have very similar purposes though.
<shevy>
why not
<seanstickle>
Learning Japanese to read Sagas is a bad idea.
<shevy>
anime p0rn with icebears
<quiliro>
hello...can this be done in ruby and rendered on a browser by means of an http server http://ompldr.org/vZmNtNQ ?
<seanstickle>
arubin: so do Japanese and Icelandic -- to talk with people
<seanstickle>
:D
<arubin>
seanstickle: To different people though.
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<shevy>
quiliro that's html right?
<seanstickle>
arubin: Yes, different people, different cultures.
<arubin>
How about Attic Greek or Latin?
<seanstickle>
arubin: much like choosing Ruby or Python
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<seanstickle>
Different cultures
<quiliro>
or is it possible only in javascript?
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<quiliro>
shevy: yes
<seanstickle>
Computer languages are incidentally about talking to the machine, much more about talking to other programmers.
<seanstickle>
IMO
<seanstickle>
arubin: what about Attik and Latin?
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<arubin>
seanstickle: I meant that perhaps they made a better analogy.
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<arubin>
Since people often learn them for similar reasons.
<shevy>
quiliro the browsers only care about javascript, so you must use it
<seanstickle>
arubin: could be
<seanstickle>
arubin: some people are scared by ancient languages, so I don't bring them up much
<seanstickle>
arubin: outside of our Other Channel
<Hanmac>
seanstickle you only need latin when you want to timetravel
<arubin>
seanstickle: I like to scare people.
<seanstickle>
Hanmac: I need Latin on a weekly basis
<seanstickle>
Hanmac: but not for time travel
<shevy>
when I go buy bread I speak in latin
<seanstickle>
shevy: over at Circus Circus?
<conor_ireland>
I heard Latin yesterday at my Grad (in Ireland, a country which never spoke Latin)
<quiliro>
shevy: can the server by the way of ruby make shapes like that and change colors while hovering on html output?
<seanstickle>
conor_ireland: the Church spoke Latin quite a bit
<shevy>
seanstickle hehe
<seanstickle>
conor_ireland: I hear stories that the Church used to have a presence in Ireland
* Hanmac
remembers that he wants to develop an new language ...
<shevy>
quiliro not really... the browsers will only use javascript
<quiliro>
shevy: ok thanks
<conor_ireland>
seanstickle: yes, but the latin mass has been gone for years and no one in ireland spoke or heard latin in ireland outside of that 30 mins a week
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<seanstickle>
conor_ireland: I meant the Church officials.
<seanstickle>
conor_ireland: not just the Mass
<shevy>
Monty Python taught me all I have to know about the Church in Life of Brian
<seanstickle>
conor_ireland: and I was mostly referring to the Middle Ages
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<seanstickle>
conor_ireland: your lawyers don't use Latin terms?
<conor_ireland>
seanstickle: in ireland? in the middle ages they mostly spoke irish afaik
<seanstickle>
conor_ireland: the Church spoke in Latin for internal purposes
<seanstickle>
conor_ireland: even in Ireland
<seanstickle>
conor_ireland: obviously, they also spoke Irish
<conor_ireland>
seanstickle: mostly irish, except when speaking to officials outside ireland
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<conor_ireland>
they even glossed latin manuscripts with irish - latin never had any real usage in ireland
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<seanstickle>
Barbarians
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<conor_ireland>
we did not gather to watch men fight to the death
<arubin>
Hibernia is the Classical Latin name for the island of Ireland.
<arubin>
That is reason enough to use Latin!
<arubin>
Look at the cool name you get!
<seanstickle>
I think Cú Chulainn did most of that
<conor_ireland>
arubin: we have cooler names for ireland, imo
<seanstickle>
And my favorite -- Dem Der Land O' Potaters
<conor_ireland>
seán, ssh
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<seanstickle>
Well, at least someone knows how to accent the name
<arubin>
Hiberno-Latin, also called Hisperic Latin, was a learned sort of Latin literature created and spread by Irish monks during the period from the sixth century to the tenth century.
<seanstickle>
arubin: impossible!
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<seanstickle>
arubin: a real leprechaun just told us that they only spoke Irish
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<conor_ireland>
bi-lingualism, madness
<arubin>
James Joyce's work Finnegans Wake preserves something of the spirit of Hiberno-Latin in English. In fact, book I, chapter 7 of Finnegans Wake quotes bits of the Altus prosator in an untranslatable Latin passage full of toilet humour.
<seanstickle>
Oh shit, I thought this was the Other Channe
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<seanstickle>
Channel
<seanstickle>
Sorry for my rudeness
<seanstickle>
In the more public channels, I try to be more polite
<seanstickle>
I try to control my ríastrad
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<Hanmac>
i want to make some "literary language" where you have symbols for "change-reading-order" ... like "when you come from left-to-right, read now up-to-down"
<gour>
Qt5 and their pushing of JS, is really not accoring to my taste
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<shevy>
ack
<shevy>
javascript will kill ruby :(
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<gour>
is delay of ruby-2.0 'cause of it? i remember talk of ruby-2.0 many years ago...
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<shevy>
dont think so
<shevy>
they are just slow :)
<shevy>
and I think they want to have named parameters
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<Hanmac>
ruby1.9.3 does have named parameters (or something like that) ... or the users are to dump?
<remi>
is there a way to quickly create Hash with an array of keys and another array of values? Like combining [2,5,9] with [:foo, :bar:, :baz] would return { :foo => 2, :bar => 5, :baz => 9 } ?
<lupine_85>
remi, not aware of anything one-step, but Array#zip and Hash[] can be combined to do it
<Spooner>
Main problem is that it adds so much cruft that people get confused when it isn't in "vanilla" Ruby :D
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<Spooner>
Anything but web and mobile development is dead (And that is probably going to be the same thing by next week). We might as well pack up and go home.
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<gour>
lol
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* Spooner
packs up and goes home.
* gour
is one of those die-hard os2 users
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<atmosx>
Spooner: what are you developing? Desktop apps in ruby?
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<shevy>
sad but kinda true
<shevy>
the www crushed the GUIs (in ruby at least)
<shevy>
I had a lot of fun with ruby-gnome ~3 years ago
<atmosx>
shevy: why, there were ever guis in ruby?
* atmosx
missed that part
<shevy>
but I cant get the new bindings to compile at all
<shevy>
yeah atmosx
<atmosx>
ruby-qt?
<gour>
www/mobile hype will come to an end at one point of time
<atmosx>
fxruby?
<shevy>
maintained by one guy
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<shevy>
fxruby abandoned 3 years ago by lyle
<atmosx>
gour: ahm, hm… maybe when people have some sort of bio-tech integration with the mobile-device, in 3.050
<gour>
in any case, while ruby seems to be cool, it's not option for us to replace python :-/
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<atmosx>
ah, whatevah
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<Hanmac>
last commit of rwx is 4 month old ... but currently i do ogre stuff ...
<shevy>
btw it is a good article by him
<shevy>
it explains why many other ruby projects are also kinda dead :(
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<shevy>
there would need to be more incentive to keep on maintaining and using a (ruby) project
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<atmosx>
shevy: if as he writes there's no new FOX version, why bother?
<atmosx>
times are a changin'
<atmosx>
anyway, I like desktop apps when run natively. if I wanted to get involved i'd start with Obje-c & cocoa, since every other env sucks big time imho wout there
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<Spooner>
atmosx : I am defying all common sense and developing games in Ruby. I used FXRuby back in the day to develop a couple of simple apps; miss that we don't have a (working) GUI library any more.
<atmosx>
Spooner: then maybe you should also start working on a decent up-2-date gui library :-D
<Spooner>
atmosx : I made one (fidgit) but it is really only designed for use in pixelly games, so not useful for anyone else. That and it is dreadful...
<reashlin>
why does creating instances of Two clear all instances of One from ObjectSpace?
<atmosx>
reashlin: I don't understand this part => ObjectSpace.each_object(One)
<atmosx>
never saw this
* atmosx
newbe as well
<Spooner>
reashlin : You are creating the objects, but not preseving references to them, so they get GCed up.
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<shevy>
wow
<shevy>
that is the first time I read "GCed up" as "fucked up"
<Spooner>
:P
<atmosx>
Spooner: I see your poinD
<shevy>
hehe upcased d
<atmosx>
shevy: that's what you get when you're writing game sin ruby -> Spooner
<shevy>
atmosx, it is true that he abandoned fxruby because FOX was dead, but take ruby-gnome, it slowly became less and less important, because upstream changed things so quickly, and downstream, that japanese dude, just couldn't keep up with the pace on his own
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<shevy>
what the GUIs would have needed would have been one language alone to prevent fragmentation
<atmosx>
Well since it's an open source project, *we* can't ask too much from *that japanese guy* :-P
<shevy>
like javascript for the www
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<shevy>
yeah :(
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<shevy>
no commercial interests there
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<atmosx>
maybe Spooner should help the Japanese
<reashlin>
Spooner: aah, that makes sense
<Spooner>
The poor Japanese. I can't even get my own projects to work/be finished, so I wouldn't want to inflict myself on them.
<reashlin>
atmosx: yeah, something I found in a guide somewhere. It's a nice syntax
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<atmosx>
reashlin: cool
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<Spooner>
reashlin : You can use ObjectSpace.each_object(One).to_a instead the code in #find
<atmosx>
guys is that the same thing: hash1 = { :key => :value} and hash2 = {key: :value} ?
<Spooner>
The latter is the optional 1.9 syntax for Hashes.
<atmosx>
ah cool
<Spooner>
But yes, they are identical.
<atmosx>
actually much cooler
<Spooner>
Well, strictly for Hashes keyed by Symbol, not Hashes in general.
<reashlin>
Spooner: ah yeah, this has come from some slightly more complex code
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<Spooner>
And in Ruby, we'd usually:
<Spooner>
>> @foo = 1; @bar = 2; "#@foo #@bar"
<al2o3cr>
(String) "1 2"
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<Spooner>
But I will stop simplifying code ;)
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<reashlin>
Spooner: no please continue, I'm new to the language and need to learn fast
<Spooner>
reashlin : That was about all the code in the example. I won't go as far as prescribing that you use "@foo, @bar = foo.to_i, bar.to_i", though you can if you want :D
<reashlin>
I would for this example, but the real code has several more arguments
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<crack_head>
I'm installing ruby...any adice on which version I should install?
<Spooner>
1.9.3 is current, crack_head
<crack_head>
I've heard in the past that I should stick with 1.8
<crack_head>
does that still hold true
<Spooner>
"it depends"
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<crack_head>
what does it depend on?
<GoHuyGo>
I'm using 1.9.3
<GoHuyGo>
works fine
<atmosx>
Hanmac: is that a bot?
<atmosx>
crack_head: 1.9.3
<crack_head>
I'm starting fresh...so no legacy stuff
<reashlin>
oh, then go for the newest
<atmosx>
fresh fresh exciting
<crack_head>
so fresh and so clean clean
<Spooner>
There are things that don't work in it, but unless I know every thing you ever want to do, I can't promise you that you will never have problems with it. Yeah, go for 1.9.3 unless you have legacy stuff floating around.
<crack_head>
could it possibly be the case that 1.8 has more support?
<Hanmac>
>> "yeah i am a bot"
<al2o3cr>
(String) "yeah i am a bot"
<crack_head>
btw...I have a perl background...and I'm still waiting for perl 6 to be supported :/
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<shevy>
lol
<Spooner>
crack_head : No, 1.8 is close to losing support. 1.9.3 works fine.
<shevy>
perl 6 will never happen
<shevy>
for bootstrapping parrot, you need perl 5 (!!!)
<Hanmac>
crack_head: ruby1.8 will die next year
<crack_head>
good to know
<crack_head>
1.9.3 it is
<crack_head>
!
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<Spooner>
Hanmac : 2.0 out in 6 months, in theory, so 1.9 will get thrown out too by the bleeding edge people :D
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* Hanmac
looks at his fingers ... yeah i am a bloody stupid bleeding edge guy :P
<Spooner>
I completely avoided 1.9.1 myself. Not sure if newly released 2.0 will break so many gems. Hoping not!
<havenn>
Go to 2.0 already... =O: rvm install ruby-head -n newborn
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<arubin>
Why is all of the rvm/rbenv stuff necessary in Ruby?
<arubin>
Why would I not just run the latest version on my dev machine?
<arubin>
And the proper tested version in prod?
<Spooner>
Because people want to run more than one version of Ruby (essentially for developing backward compatible gems).
<Hanmac>
arubin rvm is not necessary ...
<arubin>
Spooner: Backwards compatible with 1.8?
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<Spooner>
arubin : Yep. Or with JRuby or Rubinius or whatever.
<shadoi>
arubin: they're just "convenient" for tinkerers.
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<havenn>
arubin: 1.9.3, 2.0.0-dev, Rubinius, Jruby, Macruby all installed side-by-side without having to think about the annoying problems.
<atmosx>
side by side
<havenn>
arubin: Even if you don't use 1.8 ever!
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<havenn>
atmosx: Actually, I follow Chicago Manual of Style on IRC, so "side-by-side" is correct.
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<atmosx>
good, I like Chicago Manual of Style
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<atmosx>
too bad the language is called 'English' and not 'Chicago' :-P haha nice one however
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<arubin>
havenn: How many Ruby developers have all of those installed? Or even need more than one version?
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* Hanmac
dont need rvm because his system ruby is the latest 1.9.3
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<arubin>
I am using OS X, which does not come with 1.9.3, but I installed 1.9.3 with homebrew and put /usr/local/bin first in my path.
<arubin>
I am just wondering what I am missing.
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<matti>
;]
<Spooner>
arubin : If you don't have a need for rvm (et al) then you don't need it. No problem.
<arubin>
Spooner: I am just wondering why it is so frequently mentioned on so many sites.
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<arubin>
Whether there is some common problem that I have no experienced yet.
<Spooner>
Well, one thing it gains is not having the gems owned by root, so you don't have to sudo everything associated with gems.
<arubin>
I do not have to do that now...
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<Hanmac>
arubin because the sites wants anoy you :P
<Spooner>
Although, in truth, I've mainly seen people have problems because they sudo gem when they have used rvm, which does cause all sorts of problems.
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<havenn>
arubin: I like to switch my Ruby to RBX then show-source standard library methods. Nice to read the implementation of Ruby methods in Ruby rather than C.
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<havenn>
arubin: Then Jruby for JVM, Macruby for Cocao. And if you are a freelancer or consultant nice to have all versions ready to go.
<arubin>
I suppose that I will just have to do Ruby development for a while and then perhaps it will become obvious.
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<Spooner>
If you come to a point where you need it, then use it then. It is a good point though, since the assumption is that everyone who uses Ruby is a tinkerer, but if you aren't a tinkerer, why aren't you using Windows? :P
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<shevy>
only gamers use windows
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<Spooner>
I use (and develop on) Windows most of the time. Amusingly, the reception that information gets from Ruby devs is very similar to the reception from C/Java devs when mentioning that I use Ruby, so pah!
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<atmosx>
Spooner: is Java a programming language?
<shadoi>
I think it's some sort of coffee
<atmosx>
me too
<shadoi>
according to teh goggles
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<atmosx>
smells bad
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<Spooner>
atmosx : It meant Javascript :D
<atmosx>
aaah
<atmosx>
coffescript!
<atmosx>
:-P
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<atmosx>
much more rubish looking forward to get my hands dirty with it, as long as I finnish my sinatra book!
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<reactormonk>
machty: looks like an index... you could create a new class for that instead of some obscure code
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<machty>
ryanf: what exactly is the mechanism with the square brackets? is that just some syntactic sugar to define :[] on the Hash class that constructs Hashes based on arrays?
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<machty>
or is it something a little lower level built into the language?
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<machty>
nevermind, looks like it's just a method on the Hash class
<machty>
ruby doesn't like building shit into the language
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<Karmaon_>
Hi, how would I create an array from a hash with multiple key-value pairs, such as countries = { :us => { :name => 'united states' }, :cn => { :name => 'china' } }
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<Karmaon_>
actually, trying to build an array with each of the countries' names
<blazes816>
like ['united states', 'china'] ?
<Karmaon_>
blazes816: yes
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<Karmaon_>
is country_names = []; countries.each_value { |country| country_names.push(country[:name] } the most efficient?