hanachin has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ur5us has joined #ruby-lang
chadwtaylor has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
pr0ton has quit [Quit: pr0ton]
ta_ has joined #ruby-lang
timanema has joined #ruby-lang
ta_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
Aova has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
timanema has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
hendranata_ has joined #ruby-lang
enkristoffer has joined #ruby-lang
intinig has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jxie has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
intinig has joined #ruby-lang
Aova has joined #ruby-lang
jxie has joined #ruby-lang
djbkd has joined #ruby-lang
djbkd has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
hendranata_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
fusillicode1 has joined #ruby-lang
<maloik>
Probably a weird question, but what's the word people use when describing the amount of knowledge you need to keep in mind when thinking about a system?
djbkd has joined #ruby-lang
<maloik>
It often comes up in context of refactoring code, where small and simple methods are easier to make changes to as their result is very well defined
<maloik>
as opposed to code with 1000 if statements where you need to keep a ton of situations in mind, for example
<unsymbol>
maloik: see 'working memory' and 'chunking'
<maloik>
that's not what I had in mind... it's a single word but I can't remember what it is
<cdtaylor>
encapsulation?
fusillicode has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<DefV>
both situations need a big set of code knowledge
tunaCanBruh has joined #ruby-lang
<DefV>
so don't know if the argument you're trying to make is that valid :-)
<cdtaylor>
I kind of regret deciding to also make my own notes to go along with my work through of SICP.
<maloik>
wondering if "cognitive complexity" is what I'm thinking of, but I doubt it..
<cdtaylor>
I mean, if I never uploaded my notes up to the internet in the first place I could just abandon to taking notes, but nope. I'm committed now.
djbkd has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
arBmind has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
tunaCanBruh has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<unsymbol>
maloik: cognitive load?
<maloik>
hmm I think that might be it
skade has joined #ruby-lang
enkristoffer has quit [Quit: ❤]
enkristoffer has joined #ruby-lang
ur5us has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<unsymbol>
maloik: i've certainly heard of it being used (admittedly in a sort of throwaway manner) in discussion about refactoring or complexity involved in reasoning about programs.
<maloik>
yea
<maloik>
it's one of the arguments I'm using to ignore a feature request :P
<maloik>
or well not ignore it, just deny it
arBmind has joined #ruby-lang
<unsymbol>
"the cognitive load has left me code blind. denied."
<maloik>
it's actually not just about the cognitive load of the code, it's about the entire system
xcesariox has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<unsymbol>
i see :) i was being facetious
yfeldblu_ has joined #ruby-lang
yfeldblum has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
rahul_j has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
loveablelobster has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
roamingdog has joined #ruby-lang
fclausen has joined #ruby-lang
Forgetful_Lion has joined #ruby-lang
ta_ has joined #ruby-lang
loveablelobster has joined #ruby-lang
roamingdog has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
intinig has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
stardiviner has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
ta_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
intinig has joined #ruby-lang
riotjone_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
fclausen has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
Lewix has joined #ruby-lang
Lewix has joined #ruby-lang
Aova has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ta_ has joined #ruby-lang
jxie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
jxie has joined #ruby-lang
Aova has joined #ruby-lang
intinig has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
ta_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Integralist has joined #ruby-lang
skade has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
xcesariox was kicked from #ruby-lang by apeiros_ [when you cross post, inform all channels where you post, that you're asking in other channels too.]
<cdtaylor>
Being that, I don't have the expertise to help.
Aova has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
xcesariox has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
Yup, I'm no help.
Integralist has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<cdtaylor>
Oh, he's gone. x]
<karma_>
nah, back again
<cdtaylor>
I need to read these things better.
<apeiros_>
most irc clients are rather shitty at dialogue highlighting
Aova has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
Oh, it's all there. But I tend to ignore Join/leave/etc. announcements.
<apeiros_>
cdtaylor: yes, and why do you ignore it? because there's too much noise. ergo: your client sucks (just as mine) at proper highlighting those things.
tunaCanBruh has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
apeiros_: But wouldn't "better highlighting" then be interpreted by us as noise, and thus ignored?
<apeiros_>
it'd not be hard to detect a dialogue and highlight events specific to that
<apeiros_>
and "lowlight" all others (or even hide)
<apeiros_>
cdtaylor: no, that's the point of better highlighting - highlight what is valuable and not noise.
tkuchiki has joined #ruby-lang
<apeiros_>
not all join/parts are valuable
<cdtaylor>
And whatever is "valuable", to me at least, 80% of the time not valuable.
<cdtaylor>
I'm pretty sure I'd ignore it either way.
<apeiros_>
cdtaylor: *eyeroll*
<apeiros_>
I just said it
<apeiros_>
obviously parts/quits/kicks/klines of people you're currently talking with
<apeiros_>
to a lesser degree, people who've recently said something
<cdtaylor>
I rarely use someone's name if context makes it obvious who I'm talking to. As of now.
<apeiros_>
cdtaylor: and you think that's impossible to model in a client?
<apeiros_>
or even remotely hard?
skade has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<cdtaylor>
Hmm, I don't think it'd be possible to implement something like this that is accurate enough that I would appreciate.
skade has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
Either it would annoy me because I'm looking for particular highlights that don't happen, and miss something I wanted to see, or it'd highlight a lot of stuff I don't care for and I would start ignoring it anyway.
tunaCanBruh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
tcopeland has joined #ruby-lang
<apeiros_>
cdtaylor: I tried it. it's trivial.
<apeiros_>
and I tried it like 8y ago.
<cdtaylor>
Then why don't you use it anymore?
<apeiros_>
because it was not in a client.
<cdtaylor>
Code it yourself?
<cdtaylor>
Plenty of good clients out there that allow scripting.
<apeiros_>
it was the reason why I started to use limechat, because it was written in ruby, and I hoped to add it there. but limechat is no longer ruby.
<apeiros_>
yeah, no. not really.
<cdtaylor>
What's limechat in now?
<apeiros_>
I think fully objC
face has joined #ruby-lang
skade has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<cdtaylor>
Do you not know any ObjC?
kapil__ has joined #ruby-lang
<apeiros_>
not enough to do this in a reasonable amount of time/effort
sudoubuntu has joined #ruby-lang
faces has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<cdtaylor>
Fair enough.
<apeiros_>
also my knowledge is probably pretty deprecated anyway.
<apeiros_>
haven't coded a single line of objc in over 5y
<apeiros_>
iff, then I'd write a webclient
<cdtaylor>
Yeah, it's changed quite a bit.
<apeiros_>
that'd at least allow me to use irc from work properly. atm I have to jump through quite a lot of hoops for irc.
skade has joined #ruby-lang
Integralist has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
I think ObjC is my favorite "workhorse" programming language.
<wprice>
cdtaylor: +1
<cdtaylor>
Smalltalk influence FTW.
<wprice>
cdtaylor: yep, very elegant imo
<wprice>
cdtaylor: I also find it very readable, like Ruby. I can look at some code and pretty much know what is going on right away
<cdtaylor>
wprice: Any clue as to how much Swift takes after smalltalk? It's not obviously very smalltalk-like. But then again, ruby wasn't either.
skade has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
roamingdog has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
wprice: I find it more readable than ruby. Named parameters FTW.
<wprice>
cdtaylor: not sure, I’ve looked at Swift, it seems to me to have some similarities. Of coursre at the execution level, it uses the ObjC runtime. It’s a pretty cool language
<wprice>
cdtaylor: I just haven’t had much time to look at it
<wprice>
cdtaylor: of course with objC your VM, or runtime is really the OS. Not like your going to be doing much ObjC on platforms other than Mac
shinnya has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
Well, that's also why I'm wanting to learn C# after I master ObjC.
<cdtaylor>
Or, hell, I could just drop down to C when I want to cross platform.
yfeldblum has joined #ruby-lang
skade has joined #ruby-lang
Pugsley_ has joined #ruby-lang
<wprice>
cdtaylor: yep. I started my career on the Microsoft platform, I wish I had had C# back then.
ta_ has joined #ruby-lang
<wprice>
cdtaylor: back then it was VisualC++…C++ and the Active Template Library
<cdtaylor>
I just don't want to reinforce this C#/Mono taking over Mac Programming thing that's going on.
<cdtaylor>
It seems like there's more C# devs for Mac/iOS now than ObjC devs.
sankaber has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
I guess I'd rather see a more independent language take that role, but I suppose there really isn't a suitable one.
intinig has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<cdtaylor>
Maybe I can get a rich guy to throw a lot of money at D or something.
intinig has joined #ruby-lang
yfeldblum has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
intinig has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
intinig has joined #ruby-lang
timanema has joined #ruby-lang
<wprice>
cdtaylor: have you looked at cocoapods?
<wprice>
cdtaylor: the package manager for objc?
<cdtaylor>
wprice: Nope. I'm pretty new to ObjC.
<wprice>
cdtaylor: it’s pretty nice, functions a lot like the gem package management system
ta_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<cdtaylor>
wprice: I'll look into it.
<cdtaylor>
wprice: But I'm going to power through SICP before I try any major projects in ObjC.
<wprice>
cdtaylor: it installs and manages frameworks in your Xcode projects, so it takes a lot of the grunt work out of having to do that on your own
<wprice>
cdtaylor: ah…scheme…ugh..I remember it from grad school
<wprice>
cdtaylor: not fond memories
<cdtaylor>
I don't mind Scheme so far but I'm only on chapter one.
<cdtaylor>
I like that scheme "gets out of the way" and lets me focus on what I'm coding, not the code itself.
<wprice>
cdtaylor: never been a fan of the Lisp language and all it’s variants
[spoiler] has joined #ruby-lang
Almotasim has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rikkipitt has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
intinig has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ta_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
|jemc| has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
jgpawletko has joined #ruby-lang
daBee has joined #ruby-lang
<daBee>
I have a Sinatra/haml question about forms. How do I insert a default value into a form field in a haml file, served by Sinatra?
<daBee>
This is what I have now: %input#search.form-control{:maxlength => "50", :name => "searchCriteriaBean", :type => "text", :value => @search_term}
<daBee>
should I ask in #Sinatra?
brocktimus has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
rikkipitt has joined #ruby-lang
enebo has joined #ruby-lang
centrx has joined #ruby-lang
Aova has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<[spoiler]>
Hello folk
malconis has joined #ruby-lang
malconis has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<[spoiler]>
daBee: You should probably ask in a haml channel, but does your code not work as expected?
<[spoiler]>
I'd imagine it does/should
sankaber has joined #ruby-lang
ta_ has joined #ruby-lang
tkuchiki has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<daBee>
nope, nothing showing up. I can ask in haml. I’m assuming there’s one in here.
<daBee>
join #haml
<daBee>
oops
intinig has joined #ruby-lang
tkuchiki has joined #ruby-lang
malconis has joined #ruby-lang
ottlikg has left #ruby-lang [#ruby-lang]
Aova has joined #ruby-lang
tunaCanBruh has joined #ruby-lang
roamingdog has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<hanjin>
if inherits some class, Is child class reachable in parante Class’s method?
ta_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
tkuchiki has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<centrx>
HANJIN, no that wouldn't make sense
<daBee>
Sorry was that meant for me?
<[spoiler]>
daBee: probably not :P
<daBee>
ok :-)
<[spoiler]>
daBee: does nothing show up in the input field or does the input filed not show at all?
<daBee>
ya the field is there, it’s just empty
<[spoiler]>
daBee: have you tried inspecting the element?
<hanjin>
oh my poor english, If parent’s class is private, can child class use that?
<daBee>
In Sinatra, the routes behave like methods, so instance variables are meant to be in there, but it’s empty
imperator has joined #ruby-lang
<daBee>
the field or the variable?
<hanjin>
the method
<hanjin>
oh,,, mistake again
<hanjin>
parent class is public, the method is private
<daBee>
the variable is just instantiated inside that Sinatra method. It’s a simple variable.
<cdtaylor>
Can maybe someone elaborate as to why some people hate dynamically typed languages? Is Static typing really that much greater than, say, duck typing?
<hanjin>
I used Rails, can I think same? or not?
<hanjin>
I don’t know who talked with me, haha :(
mattyohe has joined #ruby-lang
[H]unt3r has joined #ruby-lang
xcesariox has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<[spoiler]>
cdtaylor: there's people who hate statically typed languages, too
<cdtaylor>
Right. But like, stackoverflow haaaaates dynamic typing.
<[spoiler]>
cdtaylor: but the general, and most important reason is: easier bug detection, easier code optimisation (ie, by a compiler or bytecode interpreter)
fcanela has joined #ruby-lang
<[spoiler]>
if you take C (or C++) for example, you don't need to do runtime typechecking, which saves a lot of processor time
<oddmunds>
HANJIN: yes, a child class can access private methods of superclass
<cdtaylor>
I can understand static typing being advantageous if you're doing something like an OS, but for more general programming, can't unit tests take care of it well enough?
<[spoiler]>
in general, dynamic types also tend to be fatter
<hanjin>
oddmunds: is that ok? someone told me the private method must be used in Class itself
<oddmunds>
yeah, or a child class, it seems
djbkd has joined #ruby-lang
<oddmunds>
tbh, in ruby, making stuff private is more about communicating intent to readers of the code than anything else
<cdtaylor>
Actually, I can't even think of OOP with static typing.
<[spoiler]>
cdtaylor: yeah unit tests cover most of those problems, but the issue still ramains: fatter, and slower
<[spoiler]>
also harder optimisations
<oddmunds>
cdtaylor: one advantage is all the tooling you can get with static typing.
<oddmunds>
lots of refactoring and handy stuff
<cdtaylor>
If you wanted faster and slim, you wouldn't be using a ruby or pretty much any language that's meant to make it easier on the programmer.
<[spoiler]>
cdtaylor: also true.
oleo has joined #ruby-lang
timanema has quit [Quit: leaving]
<cdtaylor>
So I still don't get why when I mention a dynamically typed language it gets so much hate.
<[spoiler]>
cdtaylor: it must be a well balanced compromise between programmer-performance and machine-performance; ruby's been focusing on the programmer-performance for most of its lifetime, it's only recently started getting some machine-performance attention
fusillicode has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
Well, only makes sense, as pretty much the entire purpose of ruby is elegant code.
djbkd has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<[spoiler]>
Rubinius on the other hand tried to focus on both, but Rubinius is like a thermonuclear powerplant, whereas MRI is like a steam machine, in terms of scope
roamingdog has joined #ruby-lang
intinig has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<cdtaylor>
I don't think the design of the ruby language should even consider performance.
<[spoiler]>
cdtaylor: I wouldn't say "elegant code" but ruby does have a humanist philosophy to it
<[spoiler]>
cdtaylor: computing power isn't infinite
<[spoiler]>
and you'll eventually hit a wall where "GIVE IT MORE ELECTRONS, JIMMY" won't help anymore
<cdtaylor>
Well, first thing on the site. Ruby is a language "with a focus on simplicity and productivity ... elegant syntax that is natural to read and easy to write."
rbpd5015 has joined #ruby-lang
<[spoiler]>
once you hit that wall, you get a blog post "how we reduced from 500 servers to 10 servers by switching from Ruby to Golang"
<[spoiler]>
or the like
<cdtaylor>
Well, I mean, obvious aside. But I don't think performance considerations should be a major part of ruby language development. Implementation development? Definitely.
<[spoiler]>
I love Ruby, but I do wish it was a bit faster
fusillicode1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
djbkd has joined #ruby-lang
<[spoiler]>
Oh yes, but there are certain things in the language spec itself that cost greatly performance-wise
<[spoiler]>
Also, I say "spec" very loosely lol
intinig has joined #ruby-lang
<rbpd5015>
hey guys, I got a question in reference to this code
<cdtaylor>
Right, but I don't want to see Ruby's design crew say, "We sacrificed this feature because we don't think it's great performance. Instead we gave you this other competing feature which isn't nearly as elegant but is a bit faster."
<rbpd5015>
When loading a static file I get some of my data line broke onto two lines, however when running it live it fails to honor this
<[spoiler]>
cdtaylor: these things are already happening in implementations like mruby
<rbpd5015>
buffer.gsub!(" ", "\n") that line
<cdtaylor>
Right, but mruby isn't Ruby.
<[spoiler]>
it's an implementation of it
<cdtaylor>
And they can implement it however the hell they want.
<yorickpeterse>
$HOME sweet $HOME
<yorickpeterse>
FOSDEM was pretty cool, shame all the cool stuff was on the same day :<
<[spoiler]>
Welcome ~, sweety.
<[spoiler]>
Aw
djbkd has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<cdtaylor>
And isn't a lot of Ruby's slowness from more archaic designs? Ie. it only gets incremental GC in 2.2?
<cdtaylor>
I mean, more archaic designs in its implementation, because the implementors had low priority on performance, too.
rigidspleen has quit [Quit: Page closed]
daBee has left #ruby-lang [#ruby-lang]
<centrx>
Ruby isn't really that slow any more compared to other dynamic languages
<centrx>
Lots of improvements since 1.8
<[spoiler]>
centrx: it kinda is (if we're talking about MRI)
<centrx>
any links or examples? I just did a quick search, first result shows Ruby 1.9.3 as faster than Python 2.7.6 on some random benchmark
<centrx>
with Ruby faster than or equivalent to Python 3
<cdtaylor>
Interesting.
<cdtaylor>
Seeing as the hivemind would have you believe that Ruby is pretty much the slowest language out there and any claim to the contrary and you deserve to be swept off by the secret police.
hanjin has quit [Quit: HANJIN]
<ljarvis>
Ruby is fast enough for most stuff. If you really care about performance though, you're probably using the wrong language
<karma_>
That could always be taken to the next level though
qba73 has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
As far as I care, "I want speed" -> Compiled. "I want productivity" -> Interpreted. Beyond that, choose wtfever you want.
hanjin has joined #ruby-lang
<centrx>
cdtaylor, yeah old habits die hard, Postgresql took years to gain traction after it fixed being slow
<centrx>
traction on not being considered slow
<ljarvis>
cdtaylor: pretty much
<cdtaylor>
(That's a huge generalization btw, before I get my head bit off).
jds has joined #ruby-lang
Almotasim has joined #ruby-lang
<yorickpeterse>
ljarvis: WHY WERE YOU NOT AT FOSDEM?
<ljarvis>
yorickpeterse: didn't get on it in time
<yorickpeterse>
pffft
btiefert has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<ljarvis>
have fun?
<yorickpeterse>
yush
<yorickpeterse>
but all the cool stuff was on Saturday :<
<workmad3>
cdtaylor: how about "I want neither" -> [Malbolge, Brainf**k, PHP] ?
<ljarvis>
you weren't there on saturday?
<yorickpeterse>
I was, but that was also the Ruby devroom day
<yorickpeterse>
so I spent most day there
<ljarvis>
ah
<ljarvis>
so you missed the cool non-ruby stuff
<yorickpeterse>
Yeah, in particular the pg devroom
chadwtaylor has joined #ruby-lang
<yorickpeterse>
Sunday there was some LLVM stuff but I'm too dumb for that
<cdtaylor>
"Low level virtual machine" that has heavy tie-ins to compilation, bunch of stuff for debugging, agh. I need to learn more about programming.
fujimura has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<wprice>
cdtaylor: it’s basically the back end compiler that takes an intermediate representation and transforms it into machine code
<cdtaylor>
wprice: Then where's the virtual machine come in?
<wprice>
adambeynon: i
<wprice>
cdtaylor: it’s a misnomer now
<wprice>
cdtaylor: when the project started it had something to do with virtual machines, but doesn’t anymore
<cdtaylor>
wprice: Ah, so it doesn't do any virtual machine type stuff at all? Or is that features that don't get used in compilation?
<wprice>
cdtaylor: the name just stuck though
<workmad3>
cdtaylor: I guess it started by compiling to a VM bytecode, and then compiling that into machine code on-the-fly
mnngfltg has joined #ruby-lang
<wprice>
cdtaylor: right, I think originally the project was a research thing into VM’s but it changed direction
<wprice>
cdtaylor: note, it’s the main backend on Apple’s platform now. Clang is the frontend LLVM the backend
melter has quit [Quit: Client exiting]
<wprice>
cdtaylor: so, when you ‘compile’ objC code, those are the things you are using
<cdtaylor>
wprice: Right, and that's about all I know about Clang and LLVM, I use them. :P
<wprice>
cdtaylor: all you really need to :-)
<workmad3>
wprice: I think LLVM still does some stuff with bytecode as an intermediate representation... otherwise something like emscriptem, which can turn LLVM bytecode into JS couldn't work :)
<wprice>
workmad3: right, I think that’s correct, but the VM part isn’t as important as it was in the early days
<cdtaylor>
... "taking intermediate form (IF) code from a compiler and emitting an optimized IF. This new IF can then be converted and linked into machine-dependent assembly code for a target platform."
<cdtaylor>
So, it basically makes its own IF, which used to be put towards a VM, but now instead just gets linked into Assembly code?
<wprice>
cdtaylor: right, so, rust (the language) is a good example
<wprice>
cdtaylor: the rustc compiler compiles rust files to IR
tkuchiki has joined #ruby-lang
<wprice>
cdtaylor: LLVM takes the IR and creates a native binary
<cdtaylor>
Could I theoretically direct it back towards making VM code instead of compiling it straight to machine code?
<wprice>
cdtaylor: well, you’d have to have an interpreter, but I guess you probably could. Out of my depth in terms of LLVM knowledge
<cdtaylor>
So, it may be possible to implement a Smalltalk on top of LLVM?
<ljarvis>
cdtaylor: yes, you could even write your own compiled Ruby on top of LLVM
<cdtaylor>
I think I have a new long term project in mind. :>
<cdtaylor>
Motivation to study restored!
nathanstitt has joined #ruby-lang
<wprice>
cdtaylor: I know with Apple, they use the LLVM to compile javascript to native code in Safari
<cdtaylor>
Hmm, apparently Cog kinda reimplements LLVM already in different way suited for its own design.
<wprice>
cdtaylor: so, yeah, your Smalltalk idea would work. Be pretty interested actually
<workmad3>
cdtaylor: in a sense, emscriptem is a form that turns LLVM IF into something for a VM (JS VM in the browser) :)
<cdtaylor>
wprice: Give me like a year to get the prerequisite knowledge.
tunaCanBruh has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<wprice>
cdtaylor: are there any working Smalltalk implementations now? The last I remember what was out there was pretty poor
<workmad3>
cdtaylor: and theoretically, you could create a VM that runs LLVM IF directly
tdy[NE] is now known as tdy
<wprice>
cdtaylor: and usually included sort of a half baked IDE/environment plus the language
<wprice>
cdtaylor: reminded me a lot of what Eiffel turned out to be
<cdtaylor>
workmad3: I think I'll look into how Apple does the Javascript thing and maybe base my ideas around that.
melter has joined #ruby-lang
<wprice>
cdtaylor: I of course predicted that Eiffel would win the war against Java and be the next great langauge…so you can clearly see how much weight to put to anything I say
<cdtaylor>
wprice: Squeak is running strong. Apparently Pharo is going places, but Pharo has always been glitchy to me for whatever reason.
<workmad3>
cdtaylor: assuming that's open source ;)
dzejrou has joined #ruby-lang
stamina has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
workmad3: Probably not, but I could probably get enough to base a general design on.
Aova has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
cntrx has joined #ruby-lang
<workmad3>
cdtaylor: that said though, for JS -> Native via LLVM, afaik all you need is a JS -> LLVM IF compiler, and then the existing toolchain can take over
<wprice>
cdtaylor: lots of languages leverage the JavaVM as their execution environment…Scala, Ceylon etc. The last project I worked at Red Hat (my company) was Vertx, that was a polygot environment
<cdtaylor>
Basically, the idea of bringing Smalltalk into shape to compete with the status quo without abandoning the groundwork its laid out is what's inspiring me to continue learning.
cntrx has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
centrx has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<workmad3>
cdtaylor: which is part of why LLVM is getting a lot of leverage... it cuts out a lot of work in terms of optimising and rebuilding the complete language -> native code process (same as the JVM can)
<cdtaylor>
I think one of the biggest things I'd need to work on to get Smalltalk ready for the world is replacing the image system with something else.
<workmad3>
wprice: fun... when I was at the BBC, some people there were considering VertX for some of their new, cloud-based push APIs :)
<wprice>
workmad3: cool. Do you mean the British Broadcasting Corp?
<cdtaylor>
Which, kinda looks like the idea behind Apple's xib files from what I was reading about them. "Sleeping objects."
<workmad3>
yup
<wprice>
workmad3: because I have a question about my subscription :-)
<workmad3>
wprice: I was only there for 6 months contracting :P
<wprice>
workmad3: kidding of course
<workmad3>
wprice: I could direct you to the right place to complain if the BBC sports site is out of date ;)
<workmad3>
wprice: other than that...
slawrence00 has joined #ruby-lang
chadwtaylor has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<wprice>
workmad3: do you primarily develop in Ruby?
<workmad3>
yeah
<wprice>
workmad3: Ruby is a bit new for me. Lot to like about the language
<workmad3>
I've been primarily ruby for about 5 years now
<wprice>
workmad3: I’m not sold on the Rails thing as an enterprise platform yet, but the Ruby language I like quite a bit
Aova has joined #ruby-lang
<workmad3>
yeah, I don't tend to do a lot of things that get classed as 'enterprise'... the sort of stuff I do, rails is quite a nice fit though :)
<wprice>
workmad3: my opinion isn’t based on any real hard evidence, so I don’t have a valid argument really. But I’ve been working in the J2EE/JEE space for a long time so there is a natural bias
<workmad3>
at the BBC, I mostly dealt with java though (and a lot of that was maven-based wizardry to get a 3-stage Apache Camel/Spring system connected up in-process to run end-to-end tests against it)
Almotasim has joined #ruby-lang
<cdtaylor>
What are some competing projects to LLVM?
<wprice>
cdtaylor: GCC
<wprice>
cdtaylor: there’s no real ‘competition’ per se
<cdtaylor>
Hmm, so no one trying to do what LLVM does but better. That's a bit scary.
<workmad3>
wprice: one of the biggest things, I think, that rails favours over JEE, is creating HTML quickly... most of the JEE setups I've seen have been absolutely horrendous when it comes to generating HTML... either they throw away HTML in favour of generating it with XSLT, or they throw it away in favour of implementing something almost like it completely inside Java, or they throw it away for JSP... all of
<wprice>
cdtaylor: LLVM started out as a reseach project and morphed into what it is today. Apple needed it for upgrade their existing tools
tunaCanBruh has joined #ruby-lang
<workmad3>
them seem pretty poor experiences, to me (although JSP is the least nasty, IMO)
<wprice>
cdtaylor: primarily to make iOS development more accesible I would imagine
<cdtaylor>
I suppose Apple's need of it to keep a competitive ecosystem might mitigate the scariness a bit.
<wprice>
workmad3: well, JEE has changed a lot through the years. J2EE (the original implementation) was far too complex, verboes etc
whippythellama has joined #ruby-lang
<wprice>
workmad3: JEE, with annotations, dependency injection etc replaces all of that
<workmad3>
wprice: to the point where if you have some complicated, highly distributed web app, it can make sense to do the back-end in Java, with a lot of the JEE structure there, and then use rails as a front-end for it all :)
<cdtaylor>
But I think when things don't have competition, they invariably go to shit.
<wprice>
workmad3: it also allows for something called TomEE, which is basically Tomcat with extensions which is a lower profile runtime environment
Yanin has joined #ruby-lang
konr has joined #ruby-lang
<workmad3>
wprice: that said, I'm not someone who has ever really gone deep into JEE stuff
<wprice>
workmad3: J2EE/JEE was primiarly created to make XA or transactional application development easier
<workmad3>
mmm, 2-phase distribute transactions
<workmad3>
*distributed
<wprice>
workmad3: right
<wprice>
workmad3: in JEE land that translates to something called JCA, the Java Connector Architecture
<wprice>
workmad3: which provides for standardized transaction handling in Java
<workmad3>
it's always fun to build environments on difficult or impossible problems :)
<wprice>
workmad3: but, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. A lot of apps assumed they needed full XA when they really didn't
<workmad3>
yeah, rails hits the same problem tbh ;)
<wprice>
workmad3: so, the tools were too heavy and things ended up being a real mess
<wprice>
workmad3: the primarly benefit of rails is the ActiveRecord stuff right? Supposed to make CRUD stuff easier?
<wprice>
workmad3: Java, and JEE, has JPA or Hibernate which is essentially the same idea. Objectify relational data
<workmad3>
the primary benefit of rails is, IMO, the 'convention over configuration' aspect (and not the crappy, insanity-producing variety that maven created)
apeiros_ has joined #ruby-lang
<workmad3>
most of the time, as long as you're happy with the standard naming conventions, things just slot together and don't require tomes of XML or Ruby to wire it all up
<cdtaylor>
I agree with workmad3. Although I always described it as "sane defaults."
<workmad3>
ActiveRecord is also a nice implementation of the active-record ORM pattern... but it would be nice if there were other mature ORM implementations out there for ruby :)
ruby-lang285 has joined #ruby-lang
tenderlove has joined #ruby-lang
<wprice>
workmad3: convention over configuration
yfeldblum has joined #ruby-lang
<wprice>
workmad3: hmmm, surprised there aren’t more. Java has quiet a few besides JPA…JDO, iBatis etc
<wprice>
workmad3: though, in reality, JPA and Hibernate are the preferred approach
<workmad3>
wprice: there are some others, but they're all pretty much active-record approachs, and ActiveRecord is the most mature
<wprice>
workmad3: in Java, the basic ideas are the same probably as ActiveRecord, classes,become tables, instance members become colums, Object relationships become foreign keys etc
<cdtaylor>
ruby-lang285: what
<workmad3>
wprice: there's ROM (used to be DataMapper 2), which is trying for the DataMapper approach
bantic has joined #ruby-lang
<workmad3>
wprice: there's also people who go for a DDD approach, and relegate ActiveRecord subclasses to Repository patterns
apeiros_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<cdtaylor>
ruby-lang285: wtf are you trying to do.
<ruby-lang285>
cdtaylor: Actual file contains ..desktop\test\rootshell but when I read the file via irb it shows ..desktop\rootshell
yfeldblum has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
rippa has joined #ruby-lang
Almotasim has quit []
<wprice>
workmad3: of course now NoSQL is becoming more popular
<wprice>
workmad3: which Hibernate already supports
<ruby-lang285>
cdtaylor: I'm trying to read the file for diirectory but it's not correct when i read it with irb...
<wprice>
workmad3: I’ve worked a fair amount with Redis, and the Ruby support for it is quite good
<workmad3>
wprice: iirc, JPA allows for a data-mapper approach, as well as an active-record approach... you can bind your POJOs up so that they 'decompose' your tables into multiple classes, you're not tied to a 1-1 mapping of class to table
<wprice>
ruby-lang285: I’ll try and replicate locally
<wprice>
workmad3: correct
<wprice>
workmad3: plenty of mapping strategies, you don’t even need to have tables at all
j4cknewt has joined #ruby-lang
rikkipitt has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<wprice>
workmad3: a class can be entirely composed of varying colums from n number of tables
<workmad3>
wprice: yeah... ActiveRecord only supports the active-record mapping strategy :)
<wprice>
workmad3: it’s very flexible
<imperator>
ruby-lang285, something tells me you're not reading the file you think you're reading
<workmad3>
wprice: it would be nice if there were mature solutions for other strategies... or even a mature solution like JPA that allowed for different ones depending on situation
<ruby-lang285>
imperator: I don't know what you mean by that...how so?
<wprice>
workmad3: I’ve worked in the integration space a long, long time. I an say that using JPA/Hibernate makes things much easier
<wprice>
workmad3: I suppose you could use JRuby and have complete access to JPA/Hibernate
[1]Yanin has joined #ruby-lang
greenarrow has joined #ruby-lang
<imperator>
ruby-lang285, let's start by giving an absolute path to the file you want to read instead of messing with Dir.chdir
<wprice>
workmad3: but at that point, why not just use Java?
rikkipitt has joined #ruby-lang
<workmad3>
wprice: you could... and you can also relegate ActiveRecord down to repositories and handle your own mappings :)
Yanin has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
[1]Yanin is now known as Yanin
<wprice>
workmad3: so, yeah, a neat project would be to develop a Ruby gem that was JPA like
<workmad3>
wprice: so it's not impossible to handle other mapping strategies... it's just not as easy as I'd like :)
<wprice>
workmad3: providing for different mapping strategies, runtimes etc
<wprice>
workmad3: right, I’m game if you are :-)
<ruby-lang285>
imperator: As in IO.readlines('...full/path') ? Sorry for being nooby
davispuh has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
qba73 has quit []
<ruby-lang285>
Hello...
<imperator>
well, it would raise an error if it were unreadable
twe4ked has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
hanjin has quit [Quit: HANJIN]
<ruby-lang285>
imperator: Totally, I didn't had any problems in the past but now I have to be running irb as admin to read the file or it will just read whatever it wants.
<darix>
imperator: there are days when i am happy i dont use windows for more than gaming :p
<imperator>
darix ;)
<imperator>
normally people don't mess around with system files
<imperator>
it's sorta like dicking around with stuff under /etc
<ruby-lang285>
imperator: Thank you very much
Aova has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
twe4ked has joined #ruby-lang
Aova has joined #ruby-lang
dagda1 has joined #ruby-lang
mkaesz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ta has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ruby-lang285 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
mkaesz has joined #ruby-lang
mkaesz has quit [Read error: No route to host]
nertzy2 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
[H]unt3r has quit []
wallerdev has quit [Quit: wallerdev]
SuMo_D has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ta has joined #ruby-lang
rbpd5015 has joined #ruby-lang
<rbpd5015>
guys got a question
<rbpd5015>
i am parsing two html and i got it 95% working but having a tricky time with 1 last part
deol has joined #ruby-lang
<rbpd5015>
I am pulling a bit of data called live lines and it has a room # then two lines for the away team and the home team, but the website has two parts of data in 1 string
deol has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
diegoviola has joined #ruby-lang
spookplumpen has joined #ruby-lang
bantic has quit [Quit: bantic]
killertester has joined #ruby-lang
setanta has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Aova has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
tkuchiki has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
yfeldblum has joined #ruby-lang
Aova has joined #ruby-lang
Hien has joined #ruby-lang
Hien is now known as Guest53330
amsi has joined #ruby-lang
rbpd5015 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<Guest53330>
hi
yfeldblum has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
Integralist has quit [Quit: leaving]
setanta has joined #ruby-lang
deol has joined #ruby-lang
mkaesz has joined #ruby-lang
AlexAltea has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
symm- has joined #ruby-lang
intinig has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Miphix has quit [Quit: Leaving]
intinig has joined #ruby-lang
chills42 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mikecmpbll has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
chills42 has joined #ruby-lang
intinig has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
konr has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
imperator is now known as What
What is now known as imperator
solars has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<imperator>
yorickpeterse, you'll be thrilled to know i'm learning dutch slang courtesy of Die Antwoord music videos ;)
djbkd has joined #ruby-lang
solars has joined #ruby-lang
djbkd has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
arBmind has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
solars has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
chadwtaylor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
chadwtay_ has joined #ruby-lang
wallerdev has joined #ruby-lang
hanjin has joined #ruby-lang
havenwood has joined #ruby-lang
solars has joined #ruby-lang
rikkipitt has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bb010g has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
AlexAltea has joined #ruby-lang
stamina has quit [Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1]
mnngfltg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
solars has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
mistym has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
hanjin has quit [Quit: HANJIN]
RobertBirnie has joined #ruby-lang
Aova has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Aova has joined #ruby-lang
mistym has joined #ruby-lang
workmad3 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
sankaber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
cytoskeletor has joined #ruby-lang
sankaber has joined #ruby-lang
cytoskeletor has quit [Client Quit]
solars has joined #ruby-lang
chills42 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Guest81637 is now known as pipework
djbkd has joined #ruby-lang
cb_ has joined #ruby-lang
twe4ked has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
chills42 has joined #ruby-lang
ta has joined #ruby-lang
hahuang61 has joined #ruby-lang
cb__ has joined #ruby-lang
djbkd has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
cb_ has quit [Quit: cb_]
postmodern has joined #ruby-lang
postmodern has quit [Changing host]
postmodern has joined #ruby-lang
nertzy has joined #ruby-lang
ta has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
bantic has joined #ruby-lang
djbkd has joined #ruby-lang
chouhou__ has quit []
intinig has joined #ruby-lang
Zheuzhyk has joined #ruby-lang
<Zheuzhyk>
Hi! Is anyone online?
xcesariox has joined #ruby-lang
chouhoulis has joined #ruby-lang
ta has joined #ruby-lang
<havenwood>
Always.
<cb__>
Hello..
<Zheuzhyk>
Noone online? Strange...
intinig has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
intinig has joined #ruby-lang
wallerdev has quit [Quit: wallerdev]
djbkd has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Zheuzhyk has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 13.0.1/20120615112143]]
Zheuzhyk has joined #ruby-lang
Zheuzhyk has left #ruby-lang [#ruby-lang]
ta has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
djbkd has joined #ruby-lang
ta has joined #ruby-lang
wallerdev has joined #ruby-lang
intinig has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
chouhoulis has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
lytol_ has joined #ruby-lang
chouhoulis has joined #ruby-lang
sarkyniin has joined #ruby-lang
<imperator>
nope. no one.
lytol has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
ta has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
lytol has joined #ruby-lang
lytol_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
fujimura has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
fujimura_ has joined #ruby-lang
spuk has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
skade has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
spuk has joined #ruby-lang
pr0ton has joined #ruby-lang
mikecmpbll has joined #ruby-lang
twe4ked has joined #ruby-lang
fujimura_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Guest53330 has quit [Quit: Leaving]
lytol has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mistym has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Aova has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
lytol has joined #ruby-lang
mistym has joined #ruby-lang
skade has joined #ruby-lang
cb__ has quit []
_1_vicky has joined #ruby-lang
chadwtay_ has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
chadwtaylor has joined #ruby-lang
_1_vicky has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pr0ton has quit [Quit: pr0ton]
Aova has joined #ruby-lang
djbkd_ has joined #ruby-lang
<wnd>
I can confirm that
solars has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
bantic_ has joined #ruby-lang
yfeldblum has joined #ruby-lang
chadwtaylor has left #ruby-lang [#ruby-lang]
bantic has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
bantic_ is now known as bantic
roamingdog has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
djbkd_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
roamingdog has joined #ruby-lang
tenderlove has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
mkaesz has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
roamingdog has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
ottlikg has joined #ruby-lang
<yorickpeterse>
imperator: except it's Afrikaans
davispuh has joined #ruby-lang
mistym has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
mistym has joined #ruby-lang
mistym has joined #ruby-lang
hdm has joined #ruby-lang
<hdm>
Given a giant list of regular expressions, any idea how to determine the number of capture groups in each expression, without writing a C extension, or rewriting them all to use named captures?
AlexAltea has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
solars has joined #ruby-lang
RobertBirnie has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
RobertBirnie has joined #ruby-lang
sankaber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
sankaber has joined #ruby-lang
<hdm>
hoping for something less lame than using more regex like: '(.*)(?:.*)(.*)\(.*\)'.split(/[^\\]\([^\?]/).count