<razzy>
i am little angry, not sure if i have reason "(Debug mode only) Inserts a $ trace function call at the beginning of the function or method body of sym, so that trace information will be printed before and after execution. Built-in functions "
<DKordic>
Hi everyone.
<DKordic>
razzy: Would `!' help?
<razzy>
i would expect that trace will print something when evaluated
<razzy>
DKordic: you mean something like (`!'$ recur ) ?
<razzy>
like execute debug mode?
<Regenaxer>
razzy, yes: print something when evaluated
<Regenaxer>
*evaluated*
<DKordic>
Yes, REPL it :) : `` [!] ''.
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<Regenaxer>
you can insert some message with 'daemon'
<Regenaxer>
or use 'edit' and insert '!' as DKordic suggests
<razzy>
aaaaaaaaaaaarg, brain overflow :D
<Regenaxer>
razzy, I fix the reference of 'trace'
<DKordic>
BTW I am level 0 at pil debugging :) .
<Regenaxer>
np :)
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<razzy>
Regenaxer: i would like more if you fix the behaviour of $
<Regenaxer>
This is not possible
<Regenaxer>
There are reasons why it is this way
<razzy>
and maybe introduce more verbose (Eval$ fun prog) function, that do some more eval and printing
<Regenaxer>
You think I did it this way only to bother you?
<Regenaxer>
Please be free to do whatever you like!
<razzy>
ah, i hoped i would not have to :]
<Regenaxer>
Hoped not to be free?
<razzy>
whole point of lisp for me is standardised symbols, so you can do every operation on every symbol
<razzy>
Regenaxer: i hoped i woud not have to do it myself
<Regenaxer>
Which operation can you not do on a symbol?
<DKordic>
``Which I can not create, I do not understand. '' -- Richard Feynman
<Regenaxer>
:)
<razzy>
DKordic: T, :]
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<DKordic>
razzy: You sound like a Common Lisper :p . IMHO Identity (=) of Symbols is unrealted to their Names.
<razzy>
i cannot trace every symbol. and it is frustrating a bit
<Regenaxer>
You cannot trace *ANY* symbol!
<Regenaxer>
you are confusing everything
<razzy>
DKordic: how do i sound like common lisper?
<Regenaxer>
razzy, you can trace only *functions*
<Regenaxer>
and from these only EXPRs and SUBRs
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<Regenaxer>
Nothing to do with symbols
<DKordic>
razzy: Sorry, I tryed to make a little joke. I dissagree with almost everything in #lisp :) .
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<razzy>
DKordic: hmm, how do you agree with rest of the programming world?
<razzy>
Regenaxer: i hoped *functions* and EXPRs are the same internally
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<Regenaxer>
kind of. EXPRs are many but not all functions
<Regenaxer>
What worries me much more is that you still mix up the terms
<Regenaxer>
symbols and functions
<razzy>
if they are same internally, i do not want to have separate terms
<Regenaxer>
ooooohhhhhhh
<Regenaxer>
You don't get it at all
<razzy>
propably not as you do, care enough to explain?
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<Regenaxer>
Didn't you read doc/ref.html, the first chapters?
<Regenaxer>
We talked about this yesterday
<Regenaxer>
what a function is
<Regenaxer>
I waste my times
<Regenaxer>
afp
<DKordic>
razzy: Perhaps I can help?
<DKordic>
How would You make it?
<razzy>
DKordic: imho are functions and symbols only for programmer
<razzy>
so he can better navigate his code
<razzy>
and distinguish between variables, functions, destructive functions, self modifying functions
<razzy>
those should be obviously marked
<razzy>
but only in form
<razzy>
so when i trace. i could trace symbol-variable, symbol-function, no exeptions
<DKordic>
Can You please illustrate it with some examples? Shall we define a new tracing functions?
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<razzy>
DKordic: i will think about it for a bit
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<razzy>
when i use $ i expected printed non evaluated ("s-expression" or EXPR or what picolisp calls list). printed "s-expression" with evaluated numbered inners. and output. which works great for clasic functions
<razzy>
and after executing $ the trace function should restore all local variables like @ so it is like $ was never called
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<razzy>
picolisp propably can do behaviour. but i do not know why yet
<razzy>
*how yet
<razzy>
am i completely wrong?
* DKordic
thinks...
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<DKordic>
How about ``[! . A]''?
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<razzy>
DKordic: i cannot read cryptic
<Regenaxer>
ret
<razzy>
is [ like regular (?
<DKordic>
Ah that, yes it (still) is.
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<razzy>
DKordic: it wont work
<DKordic>
How?
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<razzy>
DKordic: my repl freezes. what yours do?
<DKordic>
[>_ : [setq A 3] : [! . A] ! _ -> 3]
<DKordic>
razzy: Have You tryed ``assert'' and ``test''?
<razzy>
DKordic: now i understand :] it works for me
<razzy>
i was confused from your `` '' notation
<DKordic>
:3
* DKordic
does a lot of weird things.
<razzy>
DKordic: i can use ! but $ is still unusable to me
<razzy>
i was expecting some comfy trace $ :]
<DKordic>
I would `zap' it ;) .
<DKordic>
``bt''?
<DKordic>
razzy: Add ``bt'' to ``See also'' in Your ``[doc '!]''?
<razzy>
DKordic: we do not have shared vocabulary
<razzy>
bt?
<razzy>
aaah, backrace :]
<razzy>
i need to switch pil64 ahh
* DKordic
<razzy>
also (e) when debugging seem to mess up some "inner variables" like @.
<razzy>
when using (e) the program breaks sometimes
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<Regenaxer>
only if (e) has side-effects
<Regenaxer>
like I/O
<Regenaxer>
to see '@' you must do (e @)
<Regenaxer>
ie the value of '@' in the program's env
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<razzy>
thx for explanation
<DKordic>
razzy: Have You thought about refactoring and demonstrating definitions with ``test''?
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<razzy>
DKordic: can you elaborate?
<DKordic>
Break the problem into interesting subproblems. Demonstrate them with some tests.
<razzy>
all i am doing my whole life
<DKordic>
Curry on.
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<beneroth>
back
<beneroth>
thanks tankf33der!
<beneroth>
interesting comment! fits my suspicions, but interesting to see it so in writing.
<beneroth>
in some way, the exceptional fact about Google was always how they managed to get so big and still be productive.
<beneroth>
looks like entropy has finally catched up
<beneroth>
And I'm a little surprised that still new articles/discussions appear about the new Gmail version. Seems really to be pretty lame (I'm not using Gmail). Maybe time for some competition. IMAP is not rocket science.
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<beneroth>
"Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy": In any bureaucracy, the people devoted to the benefit of the bureaucracy itself always get in control and those dedicated to the goals the bureaucracy is supposed to accomplish have less and less influence, and sometimes are eliminated entirely."