<Regenaxer>
I'm glad I never moved PicoLisp to Github
<yunfan>
well enterprises will change
<yunfan>
since you were old guys, do you remember how IBM got badly reputations in the old time?
<Regenaxer>
yes
<Regenaxer>
all monopols
<yunfan>
and now, if you were child like me, you would consider ibm as a friend of opensource domain :D
<beneroth>
well so much about "this time it's different" ;-)
<beneroth>
I don't think GitHub will change anytime soon for the users.
<beneroth>
but... interesting question is if they will use the social graph data of its users (who knows who and works on what etc). LinkedIn is also owned by Microsoft.
<yunfan>
no i think it will change, the news also talked about MS send a CEO for github
<yunfan>
who were work for xamarin before
<yunfan>
i think this would take some change
<beneroth>
GitHub has the problem that they didn't find a new CEO for a quite a while now.
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
but for the moment MS must continue with his embracing of FOSS community. they need some sympathy and they need developers, I think :)
<yunfan>
of course like ibm's changing
<yunfan>
but the cores would change eventually i think
<beneroth>
question is if they could gain insight from all the private repositories hosted on GitHub...
<beneroth>
yunfan, T
<yunfan>
now i am worried about goland and nodejs :D
<beneroth>
is goland not Google backed somehow?
<yunfan>
they had some quick shortcut for pull libraris from github directly
<beneroth>
nodejs is anyway broken because of NPM
<yunfan>
no that worry, just some changing they need to do
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, yeah software-lab.de and picolisp.com are kinda more stable then the big platforms ;-)
<yunfan>
if i hanvt remember wrong, gnuforth also hosted on some .de domain?
<Regenaxer>
yunfan, well possible. Bernd Paysan iirc
<yunfan>
Regenaxer: ah, yes, that's the author's name
<yunfan>
and i remember his wife is an asian :D
<Regenaxer>
yes, chinese
<Regenaxer>
In the 90s we met once a month for several years
<yunfan>
relly? i thought she was vietnamese
<Regenaxer>
I never met her, but believed so
<Regenaxer>
Possible that you are right
<Regenaxer>
At that time he was not married yet
<yunfan>
then why you got a japanese apk on your website?
<Regenaxer>
My wife is japanese
<yunfan>
ah. make sense
<Regenaxer>
You mean the jap. version of PentiKeyboard?
<yunfan>
yes
<Regenaxer>
Well, PilBox also comes with a japanese locale
<Regenaxer>
But not much to see on the plain app
<Regenaxer>
only in the settings
<yunfan>
i am always like japan developers. many CJK support of software were developed by them
<yunfan>
and since i am chinese, as the C in CJK, i got benefit from their actions :D
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<Regenaxer>
yeah
<yunfan>
btw, does pork expensive in germany? i heard you germany had a big annual consuming
<Regenaxer>
It is extremely cheap I think
<Regenaxer>
compared to other european countries
<beneroth>
beef is the expensive meat here. pork is the cheaper one, kinda,.
<yunfan>
oh, really, how much would you pay for 1kg?
<Regenaxer>
Uh, I have no idea. My wife does all the shopping
<yunfan>
:]
<beneroth>
depends on the cutting/which part of the animal the meat is from, usually
<yunfan>
i had tasted german style roast sauces from a buffet dinner, which is impresively to me
<yunfan>
and after that, i will order that everytime if they had that
<yunfan>
beneroth: how about ordinary parts? i dont know pork has cutting difference
<beneroth>
it could well be that we also cut it differently then you do. apparently there are at least differences in meat cutting between Switzerland and Greece, I heard recently from someone who moved here
<yunfan>
btw, do you eat the liver or other organs?
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<Regenaxer>
I like liver
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<yunfan>
beneroth: so the differences of cutting will created different parts, right?
<Regenaxer>
Not so much other organs
<beneroth>
liver is probably the most eaten organ. most others aren't eaten usually, I think.
<beneroth>
yunfan, yeah. and different definitions of different types of meat (of the same animal)
<yunfan>
beneroth: then i am interesting of how european processed the others , maybe make them into cat food ?
<beneroth>
probably, yes
<yunfan>
beneroth: but it looks like nowadays, differences were dispearing
<beneroth>
well in switzerland you can eat tongue from cattle. but most people don't like it much :)
<yunfan>
for eg, the local cucumber were replaced by those us style in my hometown
<yunfan>
beneroth: haha, tongue is very popular in china
<beneroth>
sometimes, but many differences just look similar on the surface, while there are small bit deep differences hidden
<yunfan>
and i think some were expensive than averange parts
<beneroth>
meat economy of Switzerland is already pretty different to Germany afaik
<yunfan>
beneroth: isnt that many of the switzers speak in germany?
<yunfan>
and france?
<yunfan>
ah, i remeber when i was a child, we have some students from friendly city of switcherland
<yunfan>
and i had talk with someone, but both of us speaks badly
<beneroth>
about half of Switzerland speaks German, though usually we speak Swiss German which Germans rarely can understand. Written language is german german. then a third of switzerland is french speaking, then one canton (switzerland is made up of 26 cantons) speaks italian, and then there is even a language which only exists in Switzerland, Romansh, dying language spoken in like 2-3 valleys in the mountains
<beneroth>
thats all official national languages
<yunfan>
that's too difficult
<beneroth>
usually Swiss learn at least two of this languages while in school, at least in theory. in practice most people forget most :P
<beneroth>
we're pretty difficult, haha :)
<beneroth>
not an uniform nation like most nations.
<yunfan>
btw, why swiss hasnt be divided of this? i remember belgium and luxeborg did
<yunfan>
btw, that swiss friendly city of my hometown is Interlaken
<beneroth>
Switzerland was for centuries a buffer between the great powers. some of it liked to be independent, and the big empires around it made sure it didn't became part of one of the other big players.
<beneroth>
ah yes, Interlaken. City between two lakes. german speaking, though quite near to the french speaking parts.
<beneroth>
Switzerland was originally formed as a defense pact/alliance of multiple smaller local regions, kinda.
<yunfan>
well, isnt that like germany and netherland?
<yunfan>
they just tax alliance
<Regenaxer>
germany and netherland are both EU
<Regenaxer>
involves also tax agreements
<beneroth>
I don't enough about netherlands. Germany looked pretty different all the time, was split into many kingdoms, which for most time were part of the bigger Roman-German Empire (of which Switzerland was a part too, kinda).
<beneroth>
EU was formed after WWII, with the hope to interlink the european countries economically enough so they finally stop doing war among themselves all the time
<beneroth>
kinda worked.
<beneroth>
economic wars are still ongoing.
<yunfan>
Regenaxer: i mean in history
<Regenaxer>
ok
<beneroth>
in history the alliances changed all the time, I think. depending on the current rulers and family ties, politics, what not.
<beneroth>
for some time, most of europe was kinda ruled by one big family (Habsburgers), but they liked to fight between themselves too
<yunfan>
beneroth: well, in the chinese version quora, we were celebrate of the economic war between us and eu :D
<beneroth>
the current one, or an historic one?
<yunfan>
the current one
<yunfan>
china today, were more like european in 19th centuries i think
<yunfan>
even the capticalism part :D
<beneroth>
well, lets see. EU politicians are strongly used to follow US :/
<beneroth>
a more US-independent EU would be good for all, I think
<beneroth>
US gone crazy (trump), so now EU politicans are a bit confused about what to do :)
<yunfan>
i dont think so, i am afraid of the world went to chaos
<beneroth>
it always was a chaos.
<beneroth>
but yeah
<yunfan>
beneroth: no, US were just found its core benefits
<beneroth>
not really, they do themselves more harm then good. some good surely
<yunfan>
you see, US has sent too much resources on allien's defendese and other stuff, and what they got? bad reputation
<yunfan>
but in short term, i think us would got lots of benefit from beaten EU
<beneroth>
depends on the perspective.
<yunfan>
the us workers could do the samething of EU workers does
<yunfan>
but they cant do what us chinese worker does,. its not the same level
<beneroth>
US going out of climate change prevention contract and going out of the Iran deal was politically completely bullshit. there was no disadvantage for US in those contracts, and a lot of advantages. this was just Trump wanting attention, kinda.
<beneroth>
or so is my current understanding (which might be wrong)
<beneroth>
what do you mean by "could do" ?
<beneroth>
technological level? or worker rights?
<yunfan>
beneroth: well, we were talking about countries, but actually, not everyone thinks the same , isnt it?
<yunfan>
beneroth: by "could do" i mean could to replacing
<beneroth>
no, and that is okay :) I like to learn others view points and opinions so I can check and refine mine.
<beneroth>
ok. so you think US workers could replace EU workes and vic versa? hmm
<beneroth>
I think this is very simplified.
<yunfan>
beneroth: i just mean that US and EU industries could be replace each other
<yunfan>
that's why trump could got much more benefits of beaten EU
<yunfan>
and india could got benefits from beaten china
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, I didn't receive the first message from Nehal. that was not to the ML, was it?
<beneroth>
self-hosted ftw
<beneroth>
yunfan, I think this is wrong. maybe true for some parts of industry (cars?), but not for all of it. there are some parts you can only get there and others just here.
<beneroth>
also looking at it like different nations fighting each other is... true, but its getting more complicated
<yunfan>
beneroth: well, cars is enought for trump, dont forget he earns the presidency from those states which used to produce cars
<beneroth>
it's nice that Trump stopped the TIPP/TISA trading deals. they would have helped the international corporations, not any of the countries
<beneroth>
yeah, but they will not produce more cars. most cars jobs vanished because of automation and not because they moved to china.
<yunfan>
no, i mean he could forced those EU car industries to reduce the sales or move to US, aparently they wont move to china i think
<beneroth>
same with coal. in US coal mining is not about a guy shovelling coal, but its 12 guys and a big machine completely processing a big hill in 1-2 days.
<yunfan>
and do you know which car sells popular in china?
<beneroth>
cars mostly are produced where they are sold, afaik
<beneroth>
has US company General Motors behind it
<beneroth>
"SGMW is based in Liuzhou, Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region, in southwestern China. There is a second manufacturing base in Qingdao, Shandong, and a third production site in Chongqing Municipality."
<beneroth>
so no US workers part of manufacturing. some US engineers in the development and planning
<yunfan>
beneroth: yes, but cars assemblying create much more jobs isnt it?
<yunfan>
and even you were a billionarns you could still count for 1 when voting
<beneroth>
cars are usually assembled where they are sold, because shipping them around the world is too expensive
<yunfan>
well, i think the problem is tax
<beneroth>
problem for whom?
<yunfan>
for eg, chinese gov tax for imported cars is very higher
<yunfan>
if you bought a tesla model 3, what you paid as tax equals that you bought another tesla for the goverment
<beneroth>
Chinese Gov wants to protect and develop its own car industry.
<beneroth>
makes sense, no?
<beneroth>
you can't have the knowledge of car-building in your country without also having an industry. you can't have an industry if foreign stuff is cheaper
<yunfan>
beneroth: i dont think so, the goverment's protection hasnt took us benefits
<beneroth>
similar reason why Germany builds military submarines and sells them cheaply to Israel. alternative would be to stop building submarines (because not needed now), but then they will lose the submarine-building-knowledge which might be important at some point in the future
<yunfan>
and there're some factory grow from no protection, which live a very impressive life
<yunfan>
the classic example is in Electronic car domain
<yunfan>
i am a big fans of that, so i am very angry of goverment's protection
<beneroth>
if it grows without protection, then you remove the protection. protections are put where the industry would not survive else.
<beneroth>
(well they can also put in place because of mistakes etc etc)
<beneroth>
Switzerland has high taxes on import of farming products. also we (our gov) give a lot of money to our farmers
<beneroth>
else we would have much less farmers, which might make us more dependent on foreign countries then we liked to
<beneroth>
(well Switzerland is very dependent on other countries, but we like to pretend otherwise)
<yunfan>
beneroth: i think farming protection is different than car protection
<beneroth>
I agree :)
<yunfan>
for eg, our gov has lots of allowance to electronic car
<yunfan>
they dont use that to produce more cars
<yunfan>
instead they found its better to cheating
<yunfan>
and since the gov's allowance is huge, so they rise the selling price for the same car to got that allowance
<yunfan>
the consumer got the car for the same price and the industries got much higher profit rate
<yunfan>
here is another example proved what i mentioned before. some industries produced low speed EV, which cant got the allowance
<yunfan>
and for selling much more products, they focus on add much more features on the car, finally, i found they even had PHEV model on themselves
<aw->
I'm doing the same thing for Goodreads as well.. i'll open source once it's complete
<aw->
i don't know why many people are panicked about hosting their open source software on M$ GitHub. Unless they start injecting ads on the site, and malware into the software (like Sourceforge)
<Regenaxer>
T
<aw->
all the 'hosted' alternatives are not any better, i.e: GitLab, SF, Google Code.. same shit everywhere.. they all eventually shutdown, get acquired, or turn to shit
<aw->
i'm willing to bet people will have the same reaction if/when Facebook acquires GitLab
<aw->
self-hosting your code as a backup/alternative is the best approach, and then using other platforms to make it easier for others to get your code and/or collaborate.
<yunfan>
well, talking about ads, how dare you recommend SF?
<aw->
yunfan: i didnt?
<aw->
yunfan: re-read what i wrote
<yunfan>
ah, misunderstanded
<aw->
:D
<yunfan>
sorry
<beneroth>
aw-, T :)
<aw->
BitBucket is also crap, so you pick one crap or the other, different colour but they're all still crap
<beneroth>
it's a bit funny now because we had a similar discussion last year or so, where Regenaxer and me were in the "self-host, we don't trust big corps" camp and some were like "but GitHub is different" :)
<aw->
Regenaxer's approach for self-hosting the code for PicoLisp is the correct one
<yunfan>
well i dont think git host is totally crap
<beneroth>
aw-, whats crap about BitBucket (I don't know it well)
<yunfan>
they have some benefits
<beneroth>
T
<aw->
and m_mans and tankf33der's effort for decentralizing PicoLisp code through BitBucket and GitHub were also correct
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
that was very good
<aw->
beneroth: UI is bad, so bad haha
<beneroth>
also to have backup against a problem with Regenaxers server
<beneroth>
aw-, oh ok :D
<yunfan>
time to move to p2p network :D
<aw->
beneroth: yes I think I remember that discussion
<aw->
since 2006 when i first purchased it randomly just because it said "Hackers"
<beneroth>
wise guy. but do not forget his business plan :)
<tankf33der>
author of wireguard offer free git hosting.
<yunfan>
aw-: well i just admire his own examples
<aw->
beneroth: i completely ignored Lisp even after reading it though.. took me quite a few years to understand what he was talking about
<yunfan>
they said they could online new features when they have meeting
<beneroth>
aw-, a good friend of mine nagged me to get into Lisp for years, same guy who gave me the "hackers and painters" and other material
<beneroth>
"you are a good programmer, you could become even better by getting into Lisp"
<beneroth>
well.. he was right :)
<yunfan>
but still my first love is forth :D
<beneroth>
I first had to accept that developer time matters more than software optimization (I loved C/C++).
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<Nistur>
greetings all lispers
<Regenaxer>
Hi Nistur
<Nistur>
o7
<Nistur>
I did a silly.
<Regenaxer>
:)
<Nistur>
it's vaguely relevant to this channel, so I decided to mention it :P
<Nistur>
my CV is written in emacs org-mode
<Nistur>
I then export it, with a LaTeX stylesheet, to PDF
<Nistur>
I use a GNU Makefile to do this
<Nistur>
because that is the _logical_ way to write a curriculum vitae, right?
<Nistur>
anyway, I thought "I wonder if I could make this into a C program for fun"
<Nistur>
... so my CV now has two output formats
<Nistur>
one is PDF, one is an executable, which has embedded content which it grabs from the org-mode file (it has some bash scripts to strip out just the bits I need)
<Nistur>
... then I thought...
<Regenaxer>
I even wrote some documents with pil using @lib/ps.l :)
<Regenaxer>
will be @lib/svg.l in the future
<Nistur>
I'm using org-mode, LaTeX, GNU Make, Bash, C... I wonder what other languages I could use
<Nistur>
I was _going_ to use pil
<Regenaxer>
good :)
<Nistur>
but I kind of want this to more or less be buildable on any POSIX machine... I mean, it needs emacs to build the PDF, but the executable should be at least
<Nistur>
at some point I also want the C code to detect if it's being run in a graphical environment with OpenGL installed and have a small procedural 3D demo
<Regenaxer>
You seem to have lots of free time
<Nistur>
just for added "why not"
<Nistur>
hah. I do not. I wrote this in a couple of hours when I couldn't sleep
* beneroth
is currently writting an introductory programming course using C# (contract work)
<beneroth>
I use LaTeX, but I slowly get more and more annoyed by the many peculiarities
<Nistur>
I use C# every day at work so I couldn't bare doing anything in it at home :P
<beneroth>
yeah currently most of my contract work is in C#, while I use picolisp for my own software development
<Nistur>
I have considered, as this is meant to sort of be a portfolio project, to show that I can use a random assortment of languages, but I wouldn't know how I could integrate it into what I want
<beneroth>
I also manage to talk some clients into picolisp software projects, I hope to increase this more and more eventually
<Nistur>
:)
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<beneroth>
I say like "C# it takes that long cost so much, when you let me do it in picolisp I complete it in half the time" :)
<Nistur>
In what little free time I have, which really is quite little, I am trying to write a business plan so that I can maybe get funding to start my own work and not make free to play mobile crap any more. If I do _that_, there is a chance that I'll be wanting to use lisp for some of that, as it sort of lends itself to it...
<beneroth>
I researched languages and stacks for like 2 years, tried out multiple, before I settled with picolisp as foundation for my own software
<beneroth>
mainly because it allows quick and flexible development. higher productivity.
<Nistur>
but unfortunately, I don't know if pil will be a solution for that either :( At least not for the... main use case... as I'd be hoping to target consoles, mobile and desktop platforms eventually (first desktop, then mobile, then console)
<beneroth>
and I want (and require) full insight and control of the stack.
<beneroth>
Nistur, possible, but not easily. picolisp expects a Linux OS, or at least POSIX.
<beneroth>
miniPicolisp could probably be adapted to a scripting engine, to use in place of Lua or such.
<Nistur>
yeah, that might work
<beneroth>
picolisp lends itself to do game server programming in it, I think :)
<beneroth>
only problem might be scaling, but that is more of a conceptual design task then pure technical implementation.
<Nistur>
I intend to try and find the best solution to the problem, or one of the best, rather than just saying "I'm used to C-like languages, so that's what I'll use"
<beneroth>
I also view picolisp as a good tool to do rapid prototyping in it, as picolisp code is easy to adapt and change.
<Nistur>
and as a LOT of what I intend to do is conversation based, lisp seems like it would be a good tool to present that
<beneroth>
I believe it usually takes multiple attempts and versions before you found the best solution. not always, but often.
<beneroth>
a game with NLP features? :)
<Nistur>
and much as I don't mind using different technologies for different problems, if I'm using something of one language family (ie lisp) it'd make sense to use the same dialect, so even if mPil and Pil don't have the same features, it might make sense
<beneroth>
mPil is kinda a subset of pil
<beneroth>
well, remove the kinda
<Nistur>
beneroth: the game itself with be an adventure game with heavy emphasis on conversations and dialogue, but I have ideas for making it seem more fluid than current game dialogue, yet keep the player in control
<Nistur>
What I'd _actually_ be trying to get funding for though, is to build up the toolset to create narrative based (adventure) games, and then license that
<Nistur>
and the game itself would be a proof of concept
<beneroth>
nice idea
<beneroth>
I'm working on a game concept in a similar direction: heavy emphasis on conversations and how different characters view each other, social intrigues, but also classical RPG and strategy elements.
<Nistur>
also, much as Regenaxer doesn't like compiled lisp, if I _would_ target consoles, the TRCs heavily suggest that you should have the bulk of the code being compiled. They do static analysis on it and stuff. Obviously everyone uses scripting systems so that would be ok, but if I'm writing the _system_ in lisp of some form, I think I'd have to be able to compile it
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<Nistur>
so if I did use pil for tooling and server, mPil for scripting, I might also want a compiled lisp (with the same dialect) for the system? :S
<Nistur>
so I dunno
<beneroth>
well its basically a paper notebook full of ideas. still work in progress. I don't plan to do any gamedev yet. I try to build a business software company, and maybe this gives me eventually enough room to do some gamedev
<Nistur>
beneroth: maybe I should link you to my BSc Hons dissertation :P
<beneroth>
hm.. yeah the basic idea seems the same I had. I wonder why nobody implemented such a thing yet.
<beneroth>
probably because less complex solutions are "good enough" :/
<Nistur>
yup :P
<beneroth>
well ok, there is Dwarf Fortress
<beneroth>
but else no sign of such an implementation anywhere
<Nistur>
which is an example of what can be done if you don't limit yourself to "good enough"
<beneroth>
T
<Nistur>
<3 DF
<Nistur>
my dissertation is quite disappointing and I only ended up getting a 2-2 for my BSc :( Buuuuuuuut I had already got a job offer a week before I handed in my dissertation so
<Nistur>
at that time I was a lazy student and found it difficult to justify putting more effort in when I'd already got a job
<beneroth>
:)
<Nistur>
but yeah, if I get funding, I will definitely be considering using pil for a chunk of the work :P Although I will have to weigh up if it will cause problems when moving to console for example
<Nistur>
I think there's a reasonable chance I can get funding though... I just need to finish this accursed business plan
<beneroth>
where do you go once you have a business plan?
<beneroth>
I never tried to get funding. Also I believe I can more efficiently gain money as a freelancer instead of preparing nice funding proposals, and also funding could mean losing (some) control. so I do bootstrapping and organic business development.. but yeah
<Nistur>
a guy in my local LUG works at a university teaching students CPU design. He has recently been working with another member of staff whose job it is to help the students pitch for VC funding, but neither the VC, nor the guy are actually exclusively associated with the university, so I would try and use my connections to go through that route
<beneroth>
ah nice. good connections.
<beneroth>
bwargh I'm getting fed up my LaTeX process getting stuck whenever I try to use brackets [] within a lstlisting :(
<Nistur>
It depends on what kind of control I would be losing... I don't have any dreams of being a business man, and I don't really care that much if I get rich through this. I want to make the games I want to make, and I want to make them in the way that I want to make them. If they'll allow me to do that, then I'll be happy :P The reason that I'm pitching for the tech, rather than just for the game, which is
<Nistur>
easier, and a much smaller project, is that it's VERY difficult to make a business case for an adventure game, but I think I could potentially sell the idea of a new tech platform, plus apparently this kind of VC funding likes risky projects with potentially high returns... so it's better to say "I want $1M and we may make $70M in 3 years, but quite likely we'll flop" than "I want $100k, and we'll almost
<Nistur>
certainly break even, probably get something like $50k profit in 1 year"
<Nistur>
(this is what I've been told my my LUG-mate)
<Nistur>
'parrently they will put $1M into up to 100 companies, expecting 97 of them to fail, but they'll make the money back, and hopefully get rich, on the 3 that don't
<beneroth>
yeah read similar stuff. VC world is crazy.
<Nistur>
I would also prefer to do this without any external funding, but unless I go _very_ simple, gamedev is expensive and I just cannot afford that
<Nistur>
I cannot make any kind of art myself, I can just about manage a stick figure
<Nistur>
I cannot make audio
<beneroth>
exactly. programming is just a small part. and the other parts of gamedev can't really get scaled up without money/people.
<Nistur>
my actual design skills suck
<Nistur>
I can code :P
<Nistur>
I would say that I'm pretty good at it, generally speaking
<Nistur>
but the rest of it, I would have to buy in
<Nistur>
at BEST I can buy in generic off the shelf bits
<Nistur>
but even so, for a decent sized game, that's expensive
<Nistur>
and it also doesn't suit the kind of game I want really
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<Nistur>
Hrmmm, beneroth, Regenaxer: is there anything about the picolisp _dialect_ which wouldn't be possible if it were compiled? Or wouldn't make sense if it were? I have read all the articles about why pil is interpreted and I agree in... almost all situations, but I'd still have to consider consoles, and if it basically requires me to compile the majority of the system... it might rule pil out for this
<grp>
stuff like 'recur
<Regenaxer>
yes, all FEXPR stuff in general
<Regenaxer>
It indeed gives another language
<Regenaxer>
or at least another usage
<Regenaxer>
The point is that compiled code is not Lisp any more. No more equivalence of code and data
<beneroth>
FEXPR = expression which decides during runtime what it does with its arguments.
<Regenaxer>
T
<grp>
and structurally process them as code or not
<Regenaxer>
exactly
<beneroth>
picolisp makes heavily use of FEXRPs. it is somewhat more traditional but also more radical than mainstream lisps. mainstream lisps stopped supporting FEXPRs somewhat in the 1970s (or so?) and use macros instead
<beneroth>
(correct me guys)
<Regenaxer>
In libs in pil, almost everything is fexpr. Typical is @lib/xhtml.l
<beneroth>
T
<Regenaxer>
yes, right
<Nistur>
ok
<Regenaxer>
They stopped it because it was modern to compile everything
<Regenaxer>
Compilers where the coolest thing after FORTRAN was invented
<grp>
you could even execute xml once converted to s-exps, which is a terrible idea but doable nonetheless
<Regenaxer>
hehe, yes
<beneroth>
FEXRs allows pretty easily (and with little code) to construct DSLs: domain-specific languages (like @lib/xhtml.l is doing, with it you can write html as (<h1> NIL "hi there) (<div> "content" (<ul> NIL (<li> NIL "item")))))
<Nistur>
From my point of view, it doesn't matter a WHOLE lot if it's lisp or not when it's running, lisp would be considered a tool to create the game, it wouldn't matter at the end of the day if it compiled it to brainfuck or the compiler just aligned cosmic rays to zap the CPU in the right ways to make it do things...
<Regenaxer>
I understand, but I think you worry too early about speed
<beneroth>
some FEXPRs (depends on the usage) can't be compiled at all. because nothing is decided until runtime. a FEXPR is like an interpreter in itself, kinda.
<Nistur>
I'm not worrying about speed at all :)
<Regenaxer>
Why compile then?
<beneroth>
he is worried about looking crazy when not doing compilation :)
<Regenaxer>
haha :)
<beneroth>
because everyone does in his setting
<Nistur>
I'm worrying about Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo rejecting the project if I attempt to submit a game for release on a console :P
<Nistur>
the TRCs are particularly strict and expect the majority of the game to be compiled
<beneroth>
well Regenaxer, some people believe you are entirely crazy for arguing against arrays ;-)
<beneroth>
:D
<Regenaxer>
I did once a chess game for Sony in (interpreted) Forth
<beneroth>
wohoo, tell more. Sony is a big name in gamedev.
<Regenaxer>
arrays, true
<Regenaxer>
It was in the mid-80s
<Nistur>
I don't know how they would react if I just gave them a small interpreter and the actual game in interpreted code
<Regenaxer>
Sony MSC
<Nistur>
yeah, Sony have changed a lot since then :P
<beneroth>
Nistur, then make the game an success on PC first, when it has users, they will like to have it, too :)
<Regenaxer>
In fact I rewrote the game in C later cause Forth was too slow
<Regenaxer>
I still have a cartridge of that game here
<beneroth>
another thing you might want to consider in gamedev: you can't really obfuscate picolisp code (despite it being picolisp, so hardly readable at least to non-lispers)
<Regenaxer>
thats true
<Regenaxer>
compiled code is more obfuscatid
<Regenaxer>
ted
<beneroth>
the source is the exact same thing as what is getting executed (only difference is binary representation, and read macros)
<Nistur>
beneroth: that is relatively easy to get around if I'd really want. I could make the interpreter load an encrypted bundle with the lisp inside that
<Regenaxer>
But one could write a tool
<Regenaxer>
randomize symbols
<Nistur>
yeah, that too :P
<grp>
and, you can load everything from a 'wr dump (plio)
<grp>
so it looks compiled, it's actually bytecode of some sort
<Regenaxer>
good idea, though still a bit readable
<Regenaxer>
yes
<Nistur>
but my point still stands that I think I would have more trouble in getting a game through submission if it's get very little compiled code :P
<Nistur>
they do all kinds of analysis on the executables
<Regenaxer>
For what purpose are these analyses?
<Regenaxer>
Security
<grp>
it's not that difficult. You pack the picolisp executable with the plio dump of the code, then read the very executable at a specific offset and load everything from there. May need to hardcode an init function for that, but it's not that difficult
<grp>
and you get away with it
<Nistur>
to make sure you're not doing anything that is known to compromise their system, and to make sure you're not doing anything that you're not meant to. As with iOS (and Android to some extent) they have internal APIs that you're not meant to use
<grp>
you can say it's compiled going by the book
<Regenaxer>
If you use miniPicoLisp, then it *does* even all code that goes to ROM
<Regenaxer>
*does* even compile ...
<Regenaxer>
It builds C pointer structures from Lisp code
<Regenaxer>
Then compiled by the C compiler
<Nistur>
I don't know the extent of their testing as the platform support was always taken care of by someone else, but I know that they are stricter than mobile platforms, and until a few years ago iOS applications weren't even meant to have any code that wasn't compiled, or interpreted by one of their internal interpreters
<Nistur>
few =... 8 I think?
<grp>
not to mention they didn't even allow a garbage collector
<Regenaxer>
Why that?
<Regenaxer>
gc?
<grp>
aye
<grp>
they bitched about non predictability of memory usage
<Regenaxer>
uh
<Regenaxer>
How is that ever predictable?
<grp>
it is true for shitty systems
<grp>
well, sometimes it's more true than other
<grp>
s
<grp>
anyway, it's not like apps nowadays did smart usage of resources...
<Regenaxer>
sigh ...
<grp>
mainstream tecnology is fucking ugly and inefficient
<Nistur>
but grp, devices now are powerful enough that we don't need to care about this
* Nistur
coughs
* Nistur
chokes
* Nistur
falls off his chair
<Regenaxer>
haha
<grp>
and that's exactly the _why_
<Regenaxer>
understood
<Nistur>
I have been told that by several other gamedevs
<grp>
that's just mediocrity in action
<Nistur>
note: I am generally in _mobile_ gamedev, where ok the hardware might be powerful enough... if you don't mind turning it into a small furnace.
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<beneroth>
Regenaxer, gamedev is traditionally C++, with hand-coded memory management
<Regenaxer>
yes, thought so
<beneroth>
leads to such funny excesses like the Guildwars 1 database (big online game) where the devs did know how to write a DBMS themselves but not about how to use an existing DB. so they kinda just used the database to store big binary blobs in which they encoded all their stuff in custom manner.
<beneroth>
that is worse than using pilDB only with +Blob relations :D
<beneroth>
Nistur, grp, if picolisp is really not feasible for the end product (because of OS requirements, non-technical whatnot), I think it still might be meaningful to write the stuff first in picolisp, and once the final software architecture/design is settled, translate to the final language(s).
<beneroth>
during development and testing you have different requirements than for the end product (e.g. cheat system to be able to test specific parts of a game)
<beneroth>
it's some overhead. but if you happen to rewrite your C++ program multiple times, then rewriting it multiple times in picolisp and then translate to C++ might be more efficient :D
<Nistur>
it's an option, but not quite what I'm going for
<grp>
indeed, but it's still a pain downgrading picolisp code and turn it into c++
<beneroth>
of course people don't listen to Fred Brooks and assume they're capable to write the final perfect version of the software from scratch in the first try
<Nistur>
not _all_ games are written in C++ :P
<Nistur>
I'm not able to write the perfect version first try
<grp>
I just can't smoke c++, I'm allergic to it
<Nistur>
but the plan is not to write a game, but an engine and toolset
<beneroth>
mobile games don't count. they're ugly in every aspect :P
<beneroth>
good plan Nistur. usually people plan to write a game and end up writing an engine ^^
<beneroth>
(never completing the game)
<beneroth>
did they re-code minecraft in C++ for the consoles? I would be surprised...
<Nistur>
The way it's planned, iterative rewrites is what I'm hoping for
<beneroth>
"Minecraft Pocket Edition was written using the C++ programming language since Java was not supported by iOS (the operating system developed by Apple for the iPhone and iPad)
<beneroth>
All console versions and the Windows 10 version are also written in C++"
<beneroth>
so yes, they rewrote it
<Nistur>
but yeah, Lisp _has_ been used in gamedev, famously by naughty dog :P
<beneroth>
Nistur, I still think the original company did it? Microsoft bought them years ago
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
compiled lisp, though :)
<Nistur>
hmmmmm yes and no, I think
<Nistur>
I think their most recent games use it as a scripting system
<Nistur>
not sure if that's compiled
<Nistur>
earlier ones certainly were compiled
<Nistur>
using 'GOAL' and prior to that 'GOOL'
<beneroth>
hm.. right
<Nistur>
but yeah, I think the last of us might have been interpreted, not sure
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