<Drup>
whitequark: I see we don't have the same ocp-indent settings =')
<whitequark>
Drup: I don't use ocp-indent...
<whitequark>
(I couldn't even if I wanted, it's broken on trunk.)
<whitequark>
Drup: anyway, you're free to reformat, but I say one thing--whatever you had there with tabs is 1) silly 2) doesn't match the rest of code
<Drup>
there shouldn't be any tabs in the code
<whitequark>
well, your code had plenty of tabs. basically, the settings were "indent with 2 spaces but replace 8 spaces with a tab"
<Drup>
wat O_o
<whitequark>
exactly@
<whitequark>
did you edit it in mc? :D
<Drup>
huum
<Drup>
ok
<Drup>
yeah
<Drup>
ocp-indent broken :/
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<Drup>
I really don't like the raise :/
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<whitequark>
well, not having raise is not an option imo
<whitequark>
having sane error handling is what separates lwt from nodejs
<Drup>
yeah :/
<Drup>
I just dislike the inconsistency a lot
<whitequark>
I agree
<whitequark>
arguably, raise%lwt foo could be parsed as [%lwt raise foo]
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<Drup>
we could actually implement this
<whitequark>
yes, that's what I was going to do
<whitequark>
after I fix the camlp4 package
<Drup>
"raise%lwt ..." is parsed as "( (%) raise lwt) .. ", I think
<Drup>
but I suspect it would break quite easily
<Drup>
hum
<Drup>
more like "( (%) raise (lwt ..) )"
<whitequark>
yep
<whitequark>
how do I tell opam "remove these files from $bindir" ?
<whitequark>
at uninstalling
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<whitequark>
Drup: perhaps just ask users to write [%lwt raise Not_found] ?
<whitequark>
that's actually... not too bad at all
<Drup>
backward compatibility is not completly relevant here, since there is nothing before :3
<whitequark>
right, right
<whitequark>
ok, let me add [%lwt raise ...]. if we decide that it's too verbose, we could always add a (shorter|crapper) form.
<Drup>
but raise%lwt is very fragile, if there is another operator with a higher priority
<whitequark>
I think raise%lwt as it is is horrible.
<Drup>
so we need the "not pretty one"
<whitequark>
it's *way* worse than raise_lwt.
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<whitequark>
updated the PR.
<Drup>
why do you call Expr.apply by hand ?
<whitequark>
args
<Drup>
oh, right.
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<whitequark>
Drup: so... what do you think? mergeable?
<Drup>
sure, I was just doing something else :p
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<Drup>
but raise is false.
<Drup>
oh no
<Drup>
just misread
<Drup>
however, it's not implemented exactly as in the original syntax extension
<whitequark>
oh?
<whitequark>
I took the code generated by camlp4 as template
<Drup>
I wonder if we should implement this debug option again
<whitequark>
oh, right, debug option
<whitequark>
what's the downside?
<Drup>
is it used ?
<whitequark>
sure, I always compile my code with -lwt-debug
<Drup>
ok
<whitequark>
otherwise the backtraces are incomprehensible
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<whitequark>
I mean, what's the downside to just always behaving like -lwt-debug is passed?
<Drup>
more exception handler => slower
<whitequark>
the slowdown is an insignificant constant factor
<whitequark>
basically a few dozen instructions per raise
<Drup>
I have counter examples to the "insignificant" part, but yeah, in this case, I would tend to agree
<Drup>
just that there is no reason to change that
<Drup>
I mean, it's fine with the option, isn't it ?
<whitequark>
hm?
<Drup>
let's just stick with the same behavior as the current syntax
<whitequark>
my opinion is that [%lwt raise] should always be translated with try .. with exn -> Lwt.fail exn
<whitequark>
I mean, if backtraces are slow for you, just don't use -g
<whitequark>
what is the point of collecting a backtrace which is entirely useless for the user?
<Drup>
except that this option is not correlated to -g
<Drup>
it will slow down stuff a bit, regardless of the presence or not of -g.
<whitequark>
do I have to count nanoseconds to show you how insignificant exactly the slowdown is?
<whitequark>
-lwt-debug in pa_lwt is useless
<whitequark>
and as you have said above, backwards compatibility is not needed, because there's nothing to be compatible with
<Drup>
that was on the syntax level
<Drup>
on the semantic level, there is something to be compatible with
<Drup>
I see no point on removing this option, as it's simple to provide and simple to implement.
<whitequark>
I see a problem with existing of this option, because it just causes unnecessary pain to the first-time users of ppx_lwt
<whitequark>
*if* there is any point of implementing it, it should be done backwards
<whitequark>
i.e. -no-lwt-debug. or something.
<whitequark>
there is no reason to deliberately screw up backtraces by default. it's just user-hostile.
<whitequark>
(I very well remember my own attempts to figure out what the hell is wrong with the traces, hence the strong opinion.)
<Drup>
I don't really care, tbh.
<whitequark>
about what?
<Drup>
the behavior of this option
<Drup>
I don't have an opinion about it
<whitequark>
ok
<Drup>
(hence, I would have kept the current behavior)
<Drup>
so, if you want to change it in the new ppx
<SrPx>
flux: listen, if it compiles ocaml to opencl, then I guess I don't need a shader at all? I can just write what I'd write in a vertex shader/fragment shader as ocaml functions? If it runs on the GPU via OpenGL it will be fast enough to handle the big images?
<SrPx>
flawhat is that system?
<whitequark>
it doesn't compile ocaml to opencl, it can only compile a subset
<SrPx>
ah i see
<flux>
srpx, I don't think you can use opencl functions as pixel shaders
<SrPx>
why?
<flux>
so opencl could be used for generating a texture
<flux>
because there is no way to express how that happens :)
<flux>
how do you say the opengl that use this opencl function? there is no interface for doing that.
<flux>
how do you express that you have these uniform variables with these values? etc
<flux>
or if there's a way to do that, I'm not aware of it.
<SrPx>
uhm but cant you just program a game using big arrays as images?
<flux>
yes..
<flux>
but you probably want to have the images in the GPU memory..
<SrPx>
(I don't understand the problem^^)
<flux>
big arrays are not in the GPU memory
<flux>
srpx, hmm, have you written opencl or opengl shaders?
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<SrPx>
only opengl, I dont know much about opencl. I thought it was just the same as opengl, except taking out the focus on 3d games. I thought opencl could actually be used to host and process arrays on the gpu
<SrPx>
3d stuff*
<flux>
yes, opencl can do that
<flux>
so basically you would be able to render the stuff completely in opencl
<flux>
but then you would not be using any of the opengl mechanisms around, for example for texturing
<flux>
or automatic interpolation
<SrPx>
ah I see but as long as you are willing to code your own texturing functions and calculations that is fine?
<flux>
I think it's possible, though I have not heard of people doing it
<SrPx>
I see, the motivation I see to do it is that now you have the rendering logic in a functional language so you can go wild with the effects
<SrPx>
so anyway, what is the name of that ocaml->opencl experimental compiler again?
<flux>
btw, if you do that you cannot really target mobile platforms
<flux>
because they don't support opencl
<flux>
or webcl
<SrPx>
or even webgl for most
<SrPx>
:(
<SrPx>
great point anyway
<flux>
who knows, maybe they'll support it some day :)
<flux>
btw, Sarek is the syntax extension
<flux>
SPOC/SpocLibs/Sarek
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<SrPx>
so anyway, is there a good tutorial on how I can get started with some graphical applications using ocaml? need not to be anything gpu for now, just so I get used to the language. something similar to Processing, I can draw some circles and deal with some events
<flux>
maybe sdl
<flux>
ocamlsdl is the ocamliest
<flux>
then there's lablgl
<flux>
and then there's the more automatically generated but less type safe tgls
<flux>
and a similar set of automatically generated thin bindings tsdl
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<flux>
oh, and then there's a contender I had not noticed, lit -- Lightweight OpenGL-based rendering engine for OCaml
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<flux>
and irrlicht -- An OCaml binding for the Irrlicht Engine.
<flux>
opam is your stepping board for all these :-)
* rwmjones
grumbles ... whyohwhy is there not a mailing list for me to post patches ....
<whitequark>
rwmjones: patches for what?
<SrPx>
great stuff might keep me busy, thanks
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<rwmjones>
for the compiler
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<adrien>
krkrkr
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<nicoo>
NoNNaN: A possible mitigation techique could be diverse compilation
<nicoo>
NoNNaN: Ah, ok, you already know it.
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<gasche>
I've been thinking about the level of trust we should have in the bootstrapped OCaml compiler
<gasche>
currently there is no mechanism in place to check the bytecode compiler that is distributed
<gasche>
rather annoyingly, the bootstrap is not deterministic, so two devs doing it on two different machines will produce different bytecodes
<whitequark>
git provides a (weaker than it should be) form of authentication via a merkle tree
<gasche>
(two different programs at last)
<whitequark>
hm, why is it not deterministic?
<gasche>
the easiest way to regain trust, rather than hash chains, would be an independent, non-bootstrapped interpreter
<gasche>
Damien started working on an OCaml parser for the C language
<adrien>
he's working on that right now?
<gasche>
if you write a simple, terribly inefficient OCaml interpreter in C, you can compile the compiler with it and check that it corresponds to the distributed bytecode
<gasche>
hm
<gasche>
I actually meant "an OCaml parser implemented in C"
<gasche>
and I don't know
<adrien>
heh, I had understood it that way :)
<gasche>
it was rather clear from the context
<def-lkb>
gasche: so no type-checking, just interpreting ?
<gasche>
yeah
<adrien>
could it also avoid the putting the bootstrap under version control?
<gasche>
I don't see the point
<def-lkb>
interesting
<adrien>
gasche: you probably have stockholm's syndrome when it comes to bootstrapping ocaml then :P
<whitequark>
idk, most compilers use bootstrapping
<adrien>
but not necessarily with binaries under source control
<gasche>
adrien: do you have portability / cross-compilation in mind?
<adrien>
gasche: mostly that it's been painful and risky to bootstrap
<adrien>
a bootstrap is pretty much a build aborted in the middle
<gasche>
I don't see it
<gasche>
what would be better with a few thousands lines of C code instead of compiler bytecodes to distribute?
<def-lkb>
but why is the bootstrap process non-deterministic ?
<gasche>
it includes the destination PATH for example
<adrien>
btw there was a talk about that at FOSDEM this year
<def-lkb>
Hmm, yes, the whole ecosystem would benefit from less hardcoded paths :'
<adrien>
:D
* adrien
throws camomille flowers at def-lkb
<gasche>
def-lkb: why is there a joke that one should not talk about your implicits work?
<gasche>
(eg. this chan on 14:38 of my clock)
<adrien>
gasche: groupy mentality
<adrien>
now that you've told everyone def-lkb is going to get us implicits, he is going to be harassed day and night about it
<whitequark>
gasche: also, what's wrong with the t.A syntax?
<gasche>
well
<gasche>
quizz time, whitequark: if you don't know the syntactic context, what may [a-zA-Z_]*.[a-zA-Z]* mean in OCaml?
<ggole>
gasche: thanks (though I'd just found it)
<gasche>
(forgot a _)
<whitequark>
x.y means a record field, X.y means a struct field, X.Y means a module or a constructor, x.Y cannot exist
<ggole>
Oh, the "inner type". I see.
<gasche>
the point (not mine) is that the syntactic situation is already complicated enough as it is
<gasche>
allowing X.x.X may not be the best idea ever
<whitequark>
any alternatives?
<gasche>
I sent some really-ugly ones to Alain
<whitequark>
now that I look at it, t.A is not essential to the proposal, although it seems to allow some nice patterns
<whitequark>
let's hope that the maintainers will yield to the users, in this case :]
<gasche>
ah
<gasche>
and you also forgot about the a.X.y syntax
<gasche>
(which wasn't explicitly in my pattern, sorry)
<whitequark>
the field syntax, yes
<gasche>
so now we have a.X.y valid at the term level and invalid at the type level, and conversely for a.X
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<ggole>
Mmm, access to the inner type does seem a little unnecessary
<whitequark>
hmm, access to the inner not-tuple is not currently provided
<Drup>
whitequark: you can't write "A x -> x" on the "not tuple"
<whitequark>
true
<gasche>
ggole: but if you remove it, you have a variable that has no type in the environment
<gasche>
and that's not very good design-wise
<whitequark>
you could say "you can't write a type t.A, but it can still appear in the environment"
<Drup>
gasche: not worse than with "not tuples" (I like how you call them whitequark :D)
<whitequark>
but that's *more* confusing
<ggole>
One possibility is to just have matching, ie | A { x } but not | A r -> r.x
<whitequark>
I mean, t.A does add a little more complexity, but it is generally quite logically placed and not that bad
<whitequark>
ggole: mutables.
<ggole>
You could work around that, I think
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<ggole>
But I admit that A r -> ... would be nice in some ways
<whitequark>
ggole: so far anything I could think about just makes it worse
<whitequark>
t.A is kind of in a local minimum of horribleness
<gasche>
Drup: yes, it is worse
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<Drup>
gasche: well, if you disallow addressing the type and extracting the record, the situation would be the same.
<gasche>
another problem with t.A is that (A v) takes a different meaning depending on the type of A and v
<gasche>
Drup: but then you can't mutate anymore, and you may as well keep the statu quo
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<whitequark>
well, there is also significant advantage in readability. but yeah, without mutation it loses quite some of the appeal.
<Drup>
gasche: what different meanings do you have ?
<whitequark>
they're not really records anymore, just some weird crutch.
<whitequark>
gasche: but (A v) already has different meaning depending on type of A
<gasche>
Drup: well sometimes it boxes, sometimes not
<Drup>
hum
<whitequark>
or rather, (A (x, y)) does
<Drup>
if that's your reason, that's a poor one.
<whitequark>
sometimes it boxes, sometimes not!
<Drup>
^ as whitequark said.
<Drup>
the langage is full of "sometimes it boxes, sometimes not"
<whitequark>
also, Int64.add sometimes boxes, sometimes not, depending on whether the compiler decides to optimize
<whitequark>
this is not really a reason at all
<gasche>
I respectfully disagree
<ggole>
Would A r imply a copy of r?
<whitequark>
ggole: no, it's a no-op
<ggole>
Or would it just be id?
<ggole>
Hmm.
<gasche>
(but I do agree that the (A (x,y)) ambiguity is unfortunate, we should really write (A x y) for the one where it makes sense
<gasche>
)
<ggole>
Now I see gasche's concern, although I dunno how important that is
<whitequark>
gasche: what is the reason that constructors can't be curried?
<whitequark>
the compiler can easily convert A x to fun y -> A x y
<gasche>
well the sucky syntax was the one everyone used at the time OCaml was designed
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<gasche>
if I had to design a variant of OCaml today, I'm honestly not sure how I would define sums and product datatypes
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<gasche>
one solution would be to drop structural tuples, mandate that all datatypes have both constructors and named fields, with (a, b, c) being sugar for (Tuple {0=a; 1=b; 2=c})
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<gasche>
maybe only (Tuple a b c), same desugar, so that users can defined their curried non-named constructors as well
<ggole>
This reminds me of ATS a little
<ggole>
With it's x.0 tuple accessors
<gasche>
Oz also uses that
<gasche>
(possibly SML)
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<gasche>
16:52 < whitequark> t.A is kind of in a local minimum of horribleness
<gasche>
I think that's a rather fair assessment of the situation
<gasche>
(understanding that for that horribleness you get various nice benefits)
* whitequark
nods
<gasche>
now assume that some people don't like the system they maintain to grow more and more horrible over time, and you've got a good mental model of the opposition to the change
<gasche>
I'm not saying it's right, but it's a position I can undertand
<whitequark>
growing more horrible is a fate of any backwards-compatible system that is not stagnating
<ggole>
Mmm, I had in mind a simpler idea without the t.A stuff
<gasche>
whitequark: but people get to decide how much and which kind of horribleness they accept
<gasche>
GADTs and extensible sums: won't affect most users, makes some expert happy, good deal
<gasche>
inline records: everyone and their little brother are going to encounter them and their warts
<whitequark>
so far everyone and their little brother are rather excited about inline records, though
<gasche>
no
<whitequark>
oh?
<gasche>
a self-selected group of performance-obsessed expert users on IRC drool at unboxing some mutable references
<gasche>
that's rather different
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<whitequark>
I don't think it's just about performance
<ggole>
My (entirely baseless) impression is that names for constructor arguments are more appealing to more people
<Drup>
yeah, for me it's only for the naming part
<whitequark>
it's about removing stuff like | Foo (_, _, _, _, _, _, _, x, _, _, _) -> ..., and pexp_ everywhere (actual snippet from typedtree)
<gasche>
pexp_ are unrelated, though
<ggole>
That one should be a record, surely.
<ggole>
And the hell with indirection.
<whitequark>
it's about being able to refactor patterns without having to needlessly create once-used records or go through and perform some pointless "refactoring"
<Drup>
ggole: and you instantly make warning about disambiguation pop everywhere
<whitequark>
consisting of adding _,
<gasche>
yeah, we could make those records right now
<gasche>
why don't you use records whitequark?
<whitequark>
I do, but I'd much rather use unboxed ones
<ggole>
Which warning is that? (I'm still on 4.00.1, might be new).
<whitequark>
they're semantically a perfect fit
<whitequark>
gasche: (Also, the mental image of "performance-obsessed expert users" is priceless, thank you.)
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* whitequark
can't quite bring himself to care about performance of OCaml... after five years of Ruby, it's just too fast
<whitequark>
Drup: hm, I just realized we don't actually need the __ppx_lwt pseudo-private namespace
<Drup>
whitequark: no we don't, but it doesn't cost anything
<whitequark>
we aren't constrained by some silly parsing rules in our choice of names. smth like ppx_lwt!foo woul d work just fine
<Drup>
oh
<gasche>
using cunning scope tricks to avoid name captures is one of the few pleasures of writing a syntax extension
<Drup>
huuum
<whitequark>
:D
<gasche>
whitequark: what about -dsource?
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<Drup>
whitequark: that's very devious.
<gasche>
I want -dsource-printed code to be compilable
<whitequark>
gasche: good point
<gasche>
(it is today)
<whitequark>
it's actually not quite
<gasche>
I think so, at least I bootstrapped the compiler with it
<gasche>
(or maybe "it was last month")
<whitequark>
it's easy to accidentally construct an AST that will result in an invalid -dsource output, is what I mean
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<whitequark>
I did that several times; it is extremely confusing
<gasche>
that's what tests are for :]
<whitequark>
I think I could even make it compile, with effort
<Drup>
anyway, I don't see any reason to remove it
<Drup>
it makes it easy to see what the extension is doing by looking at -dsource, and there is no drawback
<whitequark>
yes, -dsource is a good argument
<whitequark>
the drawback is that it's possible to have a naming conflict; e.g. implicits use the _* namespace for their own reasons.
<whitequark>
(it's probably possible to define implicits so that they siphon _* but not __* names, but, ugh.)
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<gasche>
whitequark: you mean Alain never-adopted proposal to use _ to allow implicit lookup
<gasche>
I don't think any sensible implicit design would reuse that
<whitequark>
oh
<whitequark>
what does the current design use?
<gasche>
Pierre Chambart and Grégoire Henry used explicit syntax for that
<gasche>
(what def-lkb works on seems to be closer to "Modular Type Classes" in spirit)
<whitequark>
oh i see, that's pretty great
<whitequark>
will ocaml-ty be ever merged, or is it already dead?
<gasche>
currently it is not mergeable, and the people that work on it are too busy with other things
<whitequark>
the Rust people (who currently have something very much like ocaml-ty) seem to be heavily leaning to deriving instead
<whitequark>
the `ty' approach, which is almost exclusively used for printing, is 1) really slow 2) not customizable
<whitequark>
and is generally somewhat bolted on
<whitequark>
perhaps it is a good idea to not merge that and just have good deriving
<gasche>
deriving won't replace type-classes
<whitequark>
it combines with typeclasses well, though
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<gasche>
indeed
<gasche>
whitequark: note that Pierre and Grégoire worked on two different branches, one being centered on reified types (which I think, btw., that we could make fast), the other on more general implicits
<gasche>
(the OUD talk was on the latter, but there isn't enough info in the abstract to really tell)
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<Drup>
AltGr: the set of commit to fix pinning broke "opam unpin" :p
<AltGr>
er yeah I've got a patch for that already
<Drup>
you're too fast =')
<AltGr>
it's deprecated, you should now write "opam pin remove"
<AltGr>
just need to push :p
<Drup>
oh, ok
<AltGr>
(but it should still work)
<Drup>
it's deprecated before even being in a version of opam ? :p
<Drup>
(also, going from before to after this set of commit triggers a big amount of errors and various warnings)
<gasche>
but in fact you don't necessarily need GADTs for that, just map combinators
<Drup>
(it's fixable by repining everything, so nothing terrible)
<ggole>
gasche: hmm, that's a lot nicer than I was expecting
<gasche>
as whitequark says, the obvious implementation is equivalent to applicative functors (pure f <$> la <$> lb <$> lc), and boxes a few intermediate lists
<whitequark>
adrien: Japanese people and Unicode is a topic on its own.
<whitequark>
CJK unification >_<
<adrien>
:)
<whitequark>
I mean, it should've been obvious even to the Unicode committee that placing words Chinese, Japanese, unification in one sentence is just asking for trouble, but nooo
<whitequark>
afaik, CJK unification was somehow one of the primary reasons that Ruby went with its abysmal multi-encoding system, as opposed to all-Unicode
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<whitequark>
it doesn't really work, and it's so underspecified that attempts to replicate it in other implementations have been basically unsuccessful
<whitequark>
you *still* have a rather high chance of accidentally stumbling into a weird corner case which doesn't make any sense whatsoever
<whitequark>
or this pearl: because of an accidentally semi-exposed implementation detail, all objects (and not just Strings and Regexes) have encoding.
<whitequark>
which is not directly user-accessible, but has some apparently important implications which are so obscure I'm not going to even try to explain what they are
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<Drup>
whitequark: why did I tried to update the trunk switch ? T_T
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<Drup>
whitequark: ok, I just looked at your patch more carefully
<Drup>
two minor nitpicks
<whitequark>
yeah?
<Drup>
you could factorise those "Location.Error (Location.error ...))" as "Location.(Error @@ error ..)"
<Drup>
with added bonus to go back under 80 wide chars
<whitequark>
uhhh, Error is a constructor
<whitequark>
can't curry it
<Drup>
right
<Drup>
you can stiff factorise the Location. :p
<Drup>
still*
<whitequark>
and the second one?
<Drup>
wouldn't be possible to put the finalize out of the function ?
<Drup>
the "finally" code is repeated in each exception case
<whitequark>
m
<whitequark>
I never actually looked at how the camlp4 ext does it
<whitequark>
ow, my try%lwt is all wrong.
<Drup>
the code is simpler but uglier
<Drup>
hum, is it ?
<whitequark>
yes, look at it
<Drup>
I was only looking at the code of the ppx
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<whitequark>
grmbl. I now see why -lwt-debug actually exists
<whitequark>
I'll implement it (but as -lwt-release, with the inverse semantics.)
<Drup>
:D
<whitequark>
and now I'm going to sleep
<whitequark>
o/
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