00:16 <houkime> Joerg-Neo900:^^^

00:21 <houkime> user': actually your answer is here http://neo900.org/faq

00:22 <houkime> spoiler: yes

00:22 <user`> houkime: thank you!

00:22 <user`> when will the neo900 be available?

00:25 <houkime> It is hard to say unfortunately. We're in the process of laying out 2 out of 3 needed boards right now and will call this 2/3 assembly with external cpu "v2"

00:25 <houkime> schematics is there, everything is sort of ok, laying out in process, testing ahead

00:25 <houkime> layout is done by me and gitlogs are avalible here http://neo900.org/rss/ee-full-houkime-layout.xml

00:26 <user`> what components of neo900 will be proprietary?

00:26 <user`> houkime: thanks for the info

00:27 <houkime> also issue tracker here https://notabug.org/Houkime/Neo900-Issues/issues

00:28 <houkime> anbout components: more than I personally want (( We had lots of discussions about it here however possibilities are really liomited by legislation

00:28 <houkime> for example my personal pain - modem

00:29 <houkime> The thing is it is literally illegal to have an opensource modem (nor that there is sth readily avalible)

00:30 <houkime> certification cannot be passed if the user has the ability to control signal at will

00:30 <user`> is the gpu going to be completely open?

00:30 <user`> free software*

00:32 <houkime> Again you can just see the faq. will copy the answer here

00:33 <houkime> Will there be free GFX drivers available?

00:33 <houkime> function. Distributions like SHR or QtMoko already run very smoothly on GTA04 without any non-free blobs

00:33 <houkime> Unfortunately, not free as in "Free Software" (i.e., Open Source). The Neo900 CPU chip will come with a built-in PowerVR graphics processor, for which no free drivers exist yet. However, closed drivers for the PowerVR are available, e.g., for the N900 and N9 (bundled with Maemo), or from TI (used for example by OpenPandora). Fortunately, Neo900 will still support running a 100% free operating system, as 3D acceleration is not necessary for the device to

00:40 <houkime> actually the more I think and answer the questions the more I think that full binary compatibility with N900 requirement really ruins many things.

00:41 <houkime> You won't believe but we actually use 2 battery gauges, and the old one needed for compatibility is several times bigger than a new advanced one

00:43 <houkime> and the old gauge again, like a powerVR is requiring a proprietary blob

00:48 <galiven> That's been a disappointing reality I've noticed in all the attempts at making "open" hardware. It's all a best-effort within the limitations of the ICs available. There is no such thing as a "completely open GPU" which user` wants, nobody manufactures it, and there aren't enough (currency) to create a company to manufacture it. The modem as houkime says is even worse because of regulations.

00:49 <houkime> galiven: In this regard I support Fossi and opencores/librecores efforts to at least DEVELOP such things

00:49 <galiven> No matter how much people hope or wish for something "open", it requires lots of money to make it happen. user`, how much money do you have to spend to support creating "open" hardware?

00:50 <galiven> Thought "Fossil" was a watch brand. . .

00:51 <houkime> galiven: FOSSi Free and open Silicon

00:51 <houkime> Like these guys but they lack people even more than OpenMoko

00:51 <galiven> :-( can't even search for "fossi" because it assumes I misspelt "fossil".

00:52 <houkime> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_Open_Source_Silicon_Foundation

00:52 <houkime> wiki is power. love wiki

00:53 <houkime> Now the thing is that if using FPGAs it ios actually possible to have an open-ish cpu like zipcpu

00:54 <houkime> https://github.com/ZipCPU/zipcpu

00:55 <houkime> and actually it might be even possible to combine it with osmocomm-bb to have an open GSM modem

00:55 <houkime> BUT such a modem is illegal

00:55 <houkime> So the question is actually: dear user, what do you like more: freedom or being lawful?

00:56 <user`> galiven: not much money. i'm a broke musician

00:57 <galiven> Yeah, there's a difficult to navigate line trying to guess if you can use 'illegal' hardware, but hope it works close enough to not get caught.

00:57 <galiven> I'd probably be willing to try because the risk seems relatively low.

00:58 <galiven> I'm not as scared as Joerg-Neo900 of "pirate" radio.

00:58 <houkime> me actually too. Although this solution was never really implemented yet

00:58 <user`> where can i buy an openmoko?

00:59 <houkime> and smb needs to put a lot of effort in development of needed softcores and drivers

00:59 <houkime> openmopko you can buy at golden delicious I believe

00:59 <galiven> user`: https://github.com/nextcloud/notes/releases/download/v2.3.2/notes.tar.gz

00:59 <galiven> That wasn't the right link. . .

00:59 <galiven> user`: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributors

01:00 <galiven> I got mine from http://openmoko.kd85.com/

01:00 <galiven> Then the GTA04 from the mailing list.

01:03 <user`> galiven: thank you

01:03 <houkime> Back to initial topic: unfortunately from the openness POV conversion phones with full software compat requirement looks like they will be always behind because of said requirement

01:04 <houkime> and any real open phone should not be required to be compatible with anything proprietary

01:06 <houkime> omg my english hurts today almost physically.

01:06 <galiven> But even if we weren't trying so hard to be compatible with Maemo, we can't get the newest chip that runs Apple or Samsung hardware because they won't even sell it to a small company, much less give out the documentation to write software for it.

01:06 <user`> i just want to be able to run programs and scripts from the terminal with the neo900

01:08 <galiven> You could probably find a used N900 and run a terminal on it.

01:10 <houkime> galiven: if a man looks for Neo900 and asks about the degree of openness he is unlikely to be satisfied with N900.

01:11 <galiven> I would hope that getting so far as finding the IRC channel for such an esoteric device means they care about more than just 'run[ing] programs and scripts from the terminal'. . .

01:13 <galiven> But who knows, maybe even windows phone has a terminal emulator. . .

01:13 <houkime> oh man. Now my job title of "unpaid esoteric devices layouter" looks cpmpletely cheesy.

01:13 <galiven> At least you're unique.

01:13 <galiven> Possibly the only in the world.

01:14 <galiven> Even H. Nikolas Schaller is getting paid something for the Pyra work.

01:17 <galiven> I was keeping up with the GTA development too, but I already put too much money into that ecosystem.

01:17 <DocScrutinizer51> houkime: why would anybody but you not believe thateuse an nice new battery gaughe on top of the old compatible oen?

01:19 <galiven> And unfortunately they didn't have enough money to work through the soldering troubles :-(

01:19 <DocScrutinizer51> and MAYBE we even optimize out one of both after testing both

01:26 <DocScrutinizer51> houkime: why would you need a FPGA for m&ing a modem?

01:29 <houkime> DocScrutinizer51: because this way it is as open as it can theoretically be even if there's a firmware thay you need to compile and download yourself via usb or hackerbus?

01:32 <galiven> https://fossi-foundation.org/organization all white guys :'(

01:34 <galiven> At least the blog planet on librecores is relatively alive.

01:37 <houkime> galiven: there's also a significant archive of cores here. Site design is extremely dated though no wonder part of the opencores people decided to do librecores https://opencores.org/

01:41 <houkime> lack of people in open hw is tremendously suboptimal. Sth needs to be done to lower entrance barriers.

01:42 <houkime> it's not the problem with just neo900 unfortunately.

01:44 <houkime> *tremedous (without suboptimal)

02:04 <houkime> the privacy nightmare becomes only worse with modern cars and stuff.

02:04 <houkime> How will you ensure that your Tesla is not listening to you and tracking you for example?

02:07 <houkime> producing OSHW Tesla on the other hand requires true DIY printing revolution

02:08 <houkime> of the magnitude that is likely to shaken governments and thereby be antagonized as "anarchical"

03:31 <galiven> Can only hope that Elon Musk is enough of a megalomaniac to say "No" to the government, but then the government could just get someone upstream that makes the cell radio for Tesla instead.

06:07 <Joerg-Neo900> hey folks, *all that* is already possible (except the FPGA / SDR idea) and I'd not be surprised if it already been done. It however tries to implement something for just doing so, for getting excited about the buzzword. The rationale for doing it doesn't stand any closer scrutiny just like (or actually even much more than) systemd or openoffice does: It doesn't matter how much FOSS (or here: open hardware) is is, you simply never can run a

06:07 <Joerg-Neo900> comprehensive audit or contribute in any substantial non-trivial way since the whole blob is waaay too complex

07:00 <DocScrutinizer51> mains blackout once more. Only this time they say the need to dig up street where we got a house construction skeleton buit up right now. So aby ETA is completely undefined

07:01 <DocScrutinizer51> any*