<Oksana>
Yes... Okay, so anybody interested in alternative cases would prototype them at own risk, around ready board. Good luck with Neo900, and I hope you are getting more pre-orders with time, even if slowly
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<davidluckov>
Hello, could you tell me is there any image of neo900 OS for QEMU? And where can I find a roadmap of the project?
<davidluckov>
this is just the Russian alpabet, not a keyboard layout.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
davidluckov: http://qtmoko.sourceforge.net/apps/qtmoko-keyboard-russian-abc.html is >>Russian layout for *finger* keyboard<< - I.E. it's a touchscreen wirtual kbd layout. Re Neo900 OS: we support the Fremantle Porting Task Force (project) and we expect to use (not offer! this is done by community) a pretty standard Maemo Fremantle on N900. Basically all it needs is a set of drivers for the new sensors and the new charger chip in Neo900.
<DocScrutinizer05>
Re roadmap: we are about to sort a organizational probelm from GoldenDelicious/Nikolaus not having a free timeslot for us to do the layout, so we need to determine the best options to go ahead to build proto_v2. After we done that we will deliver a few orototypes to the FPTF crew and other devels (e.g. qtmoko, replicant) and we'll test and - if needed - debug the hw design, then see if we can already build final gold master proto and do
<DocScrutinizer05>
production verification on that to start production. Before we start production we will collect the full payments for all the devices to build, so we can afford production. I'm reluctant to give binding time schedule for all that, for obvious reasons
<DocScrutinizer05>
fptf / freemangordon recently posted he made kernel4.5(?) run on N900 which we consider our testbed for Neo900, so the "Neo900 OS" might be a thoroughly modernized Fremantle OS based on recent kernel and libs - though with compatibility shims to allow all existing N900 apps to run on Neo900 without any modifications
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<davidluckov>
Also, where can I find the purposes of the project?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
the purpose is to provide a hacker friendly security focused successor to the N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
with better specs so we avoid the known bottlenecks and flaws in N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's clearly not targeted (yet) to a mainstream market segment
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<DocScrutinizer05>
one of the mein project goals is maximum openness in docs and specs, so everybody can use the device in whatever way they want
<DocScrutinizer05>
main*
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<davidluckov>
but why is the keyboard layout not standart? It's like if English layout would be not "q,w,e,r,t,y..", but "a,b,c,d,e,f".
<DocScrutinizer05>
qtmoko? sorry I have no idea
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<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway if you really want to use a vkbd on qtmoko on Neo900, I'm pretty sure it's quite easy to patch this program to show any layout you like.
<DocScrutinizer05>
freemangordon: apropos vkbd, has anybody tackled the fremantle symbols/vkbd/hwkbd blob and tried to RE it? would well be worth it
<davidluckov>
Yes, I know. But, anyway, why don't you want to create a board in more or less standart form factor (i.e. 4''). Port Tizen on it, maybe shorten version.
<DocScrutinizer05>
"We" do not create any software
<DocScrutinizer05>
"We" is a tiny team of 2 or 3 people, we are more than busy handling the hw building
<DocScrutinizer05>
software is FOSS, a completely community driven project
<DocScrutinizer05>
Tne Neo900 UG only supports the community by providing protoypes for development, other infra if needed, plus mentoring and providing info as much as we can
<DocScrutinizer05>
I agree this layout is pretty unfortunate, I don't like it either. But there's only so much I can do
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, >>create a board<< - well, see our FAQ etc, for the problem with mechanical components like display, kbd, case etc. That's why we use N900 to upgrade it
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd love to use a case and display and touchpanel of maybe 5'7 or even 6'5, but there's no available ready made parts for such a design out there
<DocScrutinizer05>
sourcing/building such parts has an initial investemt of at least 100k when it needs to be something decent
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW only feasible from a higher 4 figure number of devices to build. So far we have a low 3 figure number of preorders
<DocScrutinizer05>
since we have no dozend of millions venture capital (like canonical), we can't even start to think about that approach
<DocScrutinizer05>
dozens*
<davidluckov>
Hm, very interesting. What do you use as your prototyping board?
<DocScrutinizer05>
about formfactor (4"): we-the-community already blamed Nokia for the small screen when N900 came out. We seen the trend towards - and the desirability of - larger screens back then already, while Nokia denied that
<davidluckov>
Or, sorry, you don't create software, I forgot
<DocScrutinizer05>
the proto_v2 is a N(eo)900-shaped custom made PCB (sandwich) without the SoC core components (to simplyfy design), and we'll attach it to a BeagleBoard-xM for the "brain"
<DocScrutinizer05>
the Neo900 is basically platform compatible to GoldenDelicios "Openmoko"-GTA04 and beagleboard-xM
<DocScrutinizer05>
and to a large extent to N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
and to PandoraBox
<davidluckov>
and what kind of gps/glonass do you use?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the embedded GNSS system of P*S8
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless that one turns out to be not good enough for our demands during test
<DocScrutinizer05>
Xiaoman: the estimated battery standby time is equivalent to N900, up to more than a week in idle
<Xiaoman>
Noice
<DocScrutinizer05>
I easily get longer than one day with my N900 on WLAN data, with 3G standby (no GPRS data), with xchat IRC client running in background all the time
<DocScrutinizer05>
this drops to maybe 8h with GPRS via 3G, and 18h with GPRS via 2G
<DocScrutinizer05>
without GPRS and without WLAN you should get around 10 days max standby as a plain phone
<davidluckov>
I think that 100-300k is not the big money, I don't like the idea of neo900, but I think it is possible to create something interesting with GTA04. I think I'll try to start up TizenOS on a beagleboard, connect good camera and sensors.
<DocScrutinizer05>
up to you
<DocScrutinizer05>
out of interest: what in particular don't you like about Neo900?
<DocScrutinizer05>
with a sponsorship of 300k we could do quite a lot for our Neo900 :-) - even lower the price significantly
<DocScrutinizer05>
heck, we almost could lower the price to zero then, for a 300 devices
<DocScrutinizer05>
for a 1000 devices we could either lower the price to maybe 450€, or keep the price and start building our own case and find a larger screen and touchpanel
<davidluckov>
it has small display, its body is obsolete, and new operating systems are much more comfortable than maemo.
<davidluckov>
I am not an investor)
<davidluckov>
I want to say, that I think that most smartphones today look ugly
<davidluckov>
like toys
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, the device is open to whatever OS you want on it
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the whole point of this project
<davidluckov>
no, I don't mean that they are not fully functional linuxes, but that they are a bit childish and overloaded with functions and programs.
<davidluckov>
i.e. Iphones, I can't imagine some "serious" man with that toy
<hellekin>
DocScrutinizer05: you mean the datasheets?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
the links are borked
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<enyc>
DocScrutinizer05: good to hear the gdc/nikolaus getting sorted supposedly!, new news or just figuring out what to dowith resources you already have ??
<DocScrutinizer05>
tbh I'm still a tad lost on deciding what's the best strategy
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are at least 3 different approaches and each has it's specific downsides and benefits
<enyc>
is there anythnig reasonably can be done to start leranig that will help resolve that situation?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nik suggested I do the layout, while so far he always claimed that layout in eagle can't reasonably get done without his very own router extension to eagle which I don't have
<enyc>
consistency error!
<DocScrutinizer05>
enyc: (can be done) I wish there was, but thanks. As soon as sth comes to mind, I'll holler
<enyc>
do you have other // different opinions, eagle users to talk with, etc ... ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the other options are basically: a) wait a 6 months until Nik has timeslots for us again, b) find some other hw house to do the layout
<enyc>
... Open Source HardWare projects you might be able to talk to ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas none of such complexity in layout
<DocScrutinizer05>
that use eagle
<enyc>
what do they use?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I dunno
<enyc>
somebody might sugcgest an alternate apporach etc...
<enyc>
if you ask about
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, that would be a job for you: find a open hw project that uses FPBGA (0.4mm pitch) with eagle
<enyc>
i didn't understand why eagle is only option there ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically because we have all project files in eagle so far, and I have a eagle license, and other tools would be less open than even eagle, or they are not up to the task like kicad
<DocScrutinizer05>
besides other tools are not only less open (no free version available) but also extremely expensive compared to eagle
<DocScrutinizer05>
there is that altium free stuff, but it's a web service and I really don't like to even ponder using such tool
<enyc>
ok ,I'm not personally aware of OSHW projects perse
<enyc>
but i'd have thourght some seort of eagle-users you could ask who might know about hw houses and all the rest of it
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<hellekin>
DocScrutinizer05: that's funny I used a comparation between cars and computers just yesterday, commenting that VW reminded us cars are ever more like computers these days.
<wpwrak>
a rather bizzare setup. you don't see it often that big_company.com redirects to something dodgy-looking like sitestat.fr just to "bounce back". i was rather puzzled when i found that (back when they changed the URLs. that was already a few months ago.)
<hellekin>
DocScrutinizer05: problem is we're using a link from a web page, so the REFERER will be set in most browsers. Maybe we should download the PDFs and serve them locally.
<DocScrutinizer05>
it worked for me too from that block diagram, however I visited their site before, so they might have put me (my IP) on some temporary whitelist
<hellekin>
works from here. There must be a transparent(ly broken) proxy on the other connection.
<wpwrak>
hellekin: you can make an all-local copy with the block diagram: git clone ...misc... then cd misc/block; make local
<wpwrak>
hellekin: this downloads and cahces (almost) all the data sheets. the file v2-local.html then has the block diagram with links to the local cache
<hellekin>
ah, that's legal :D
<wpwrak>
(almost) there are some we can't link to because they're on dubious places
<wpwrak>
hellekin: copy for personal use ? sure. redistribution without permission, though, nope
<DocScrutinizer05>
which is a subject of discussion between the 3 of us
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think there's no such thing like "dubious places"
<wpwrak>
well, we go via google for the TRM of the companion chip
<hellekin>
nice misc
<wpwrak>
hellekin: you may get some failed downloads. in this case, please holler so that i can fix them
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<freemangordon>
DocScrutinizer05: vkbd is REed since long time, there is just no manpower to fix whatever needs to be fixed
<Psykus>
considered using something like massdrop once the project is closer to completion for a lower per unit cost?
<Psykus>
site for collecting large orders of things, ends up working a bit like kickstarter. people aren't charged unless x number of orders are placed for a certain price
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<ravelo>
DocScrutinizer05: I have an interesting idea
<ravelo>
are you around?
<x29a>
just write it
<ravelo>
on choosing the software:
<ravelo>
for layouting:
<ravelo>
best way could be to use the installation of Nikolaus
<ravelo>
he could give you access to his computer in a second account
<ravelo>
and use it with remote desktop
<ravelo>
Nikolaus might need to upgrade to multiuser if he does not have it yet
<ravelo>
(Eagle)
<ravelo>
next you have to decide who works in this second account
<ravelo>
maybe you did not yet think of this easy solution