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<devCon>
I' ve been interested in the neo900 for quite sometime but I noticed that no news updates have been placed in the website. What' s the project status?
<DocScrutinizer05>
we published a whitepaper a few days ago, and we're about to sort our problems with PayPal (at least we really hope so now). And then (or even before) we can start building the proto_v2 prototype which is meant to verify all sensor et al design aspects and show a working maemo on the device
<devCon>
ok ok so one question here, I know that it may be hard to answer but I' m not expecting a precise answer, just an approximate. When do you think this incredible hardware will be available? I feel like there is a whole universe waiting for this project (this is some sort of a compliment to you the "devs")
<DocScrutinizer05>
not sooner than 4 months from now
<DocScrutinizer05>
and that assumes no new roadblocks like PP mess come up, which is probably unrealistic to hope for
<DocScrutinizer05>
the whole project would be so much easier and faster to accomplish when we had a 5000 preorders or a credits worth a 5000 devices to build
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe even 10000
<DocScrutinizer05>
then we could build our own new case, find larger screen, and whatnot else
<DocScrutinizer05>
right now we're at a 300some
<DocScrutinizer05>
and we need *at least* 500
<DocScrutinizer05>
mind you, this is a project without big funds in the kitty, all made feasible by crowdfunding
<DocScrutinizer05>
this is also the reason why we probably won't be able to sell a device to interested customers who approach us _after_ the sales started. We're strictly building to order
<DocScrutinizer05>
devCon: (re published whitepaper) you might not be aware yet, and our webpage doesn't really make a big deal of it, but the device has TWO SIM slots and can act as smartcard reader too
<DocScrutinizer05>
depending on Gemalto and what they are able and willing to implement into their modem firmware, there might even be Dual SIM Dual Standby for the PLS8 modem variant
<pigeons>
i have a phone with 2 radios but it has much less than /2 battery life
<xman>
Well I appreciated all the hard work you guys have put into this project. And think it's really important, if only to show other companies the possible of open and secure device. Additional it may increase interest in larger investors for a next project. I would love having mainly a larger screen and perhaps a thinner … but keyboard and good stylist is a must.
<ds2>
dual standby means both sims registered to the network?
<DocScrutinizer05>
pigeons: that's normal
<DocScrutinizer05>
DSDS works with one radio doing timesharing on the air
<devCon>
please don't be bothered by me asking question. I'm not looking to judge anybody nor criticize. I'm just curious and trying to understand. Why do you think this project has not received the needed attention or sound support from customers or the worldwide fsf community?
<xman>
I think the project may need a slickly designed marketing plan to get the word out to more folks that only can see pretty stuff. :D
<devCon>
DocScrutinizer05 thanks for the updated info
<DocScrutinizer05>
xman: this is already "in the pipeline" :-) search on tmo for "STEP2"
<DocScrutinizer05>
devCon: you're welcome :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks for your interest and support
<DocScrutinizer05>
devCon: ((project has not received the needed attention)) we're engineers and *very* poor on PR and all that stuff. Heck we don't even manage to update our website as frequently as it should
<freemangordon>
not to say there is no enough manpower to look for PR stuff as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
xman: yes, that is to the point
<DocScrutinizer05>
freemangordon: ack, that too
<DocScrutinizer05>
and besides engineering we also had to implement a company and a webshop, which sounds ridiculously simple but is a nightmare for people who never before did that
<xman>
Well I can possibly help with some of that marketing design stuff. Should we talk about what's needed off irc?
<xman>
Well you guys are doing a great job!! People just don't know how hard it is to make a product! Sometime we forget the number of step that will challenge the process.
<devCon>
no worries, actually I've been holding myself to buy a "lockedphoned" just for the sake of waiting for this hardware. I guys want to further compliment you on this hard work. I also understand that you lack of manpower for the marketing and help is needed in this subject. So guys what do you think if we start organizing ourself, develop a strategy towards finding more resources (letting alone technical devs to do their jobs)
<freemangordon>
xman: me, as sitting a bit aside, would prefer to keep talks in open, unless it really needs to be closed
<DocScrutinizer05>
xman: very welcome, let me /query you for details
<freemangordon>
DocScrutinizer05: btw, are those modified BBs atill on your desk?
<freemangordon>
*still
<DocScrutinizer05>
devCon: sounds like a plan :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
freemangordon: not on my desk but in my shelf
<freemangordon>
:)
<freemangordon>
ok
<devCon>
EXACTLY!! it is a PLAN
<devCon>
let' s boost this up
<freemangordon>
reminds me of Rob Anybody :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you could use either this very IRC channel or (prolly better) http://talk.maemo.org/
<xman>
freemangordon: I understand and appreciate openness. I just want to make sure I actually can help before I put it completely out there :D. So I was thinking a PM perhaps or something else.
<xman>
But of course if it needs to be open it's cool.
<DocScrutinizer05>
The Neo900 Open Smartphone: A platform with new security features - PDF, WebM
<DocScrutinizer05>
Werner Almesberger; Chaos Communication Camp 2015, Zehdenick, 16.08.2015
<devCon>
Ok one more question here before I dive into this... this project is planned to be fsf hardware endorsed, right?
<DocScrutinizer05>
while Mr Stallman loves and supports the project, we have a disagreement with FSF about the requirements for RYF certification by FSF. We think our users benefit from us allowing them to update even closed firmware like the one in our modem. FSF doesn't allow that
<DocScrutinizer05>
so you could say we're FSF compliant in any regard, except where we offer *more* freedom to our users than FSF (for political reasons) can cope with
<xman>
Okay made a post to your new thread. But will have to hop off of irc to do other stuff. Lets plan out our PR/ help :D.
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks a lot! very much appreciated. :-)
<devCon>
so (correct me if I'm wrong), the neo900 won't receive a RYF because of modem closed firmware, but still the modem will be clearly separated?
<devCon>
and everything else FSF compliant
<devCon>
?
<DocScrutinizer05>
almost correct. We will not receive RYF because we don't block *update* of that closed modem firmware
<DocScrutinizer05>
(same applies for WLAN which is impossible to implement fully FSF compliant)
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless you add nasty stuff like a CPU only meant to block/hide the firmware upload
<DocScrutinizer05>
you could order a device without modem and without WLAN and it would be 100% RYF compliant
<xman>
DocScrutinizer05: You welcome I just hope I have time and can really make a difference.
<DocScrutinizer05>
but that's obviously nonsense to do. Particularly since nobody forces you to use the modem or the WLAN subsystem
<xman>
100% RYF compliant I think is not really needed. But a good goal to shoot for.
<devCon>
yeah but in that case this device will be only a small PC not a comm platform, right?
<DocScrutinizer05>
xman: we do, as good as it gets
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<DocScrutinizer05>
devCon: yes, without any wireless it will be only a PDA/palmtop-PC
<xman>
DocScrutinizer05: yup that why I'm lovely this project.
<DocScrutinizer05>
devCon: but you can run the device in a 100%-RYF mode, simply not enabling WLAN and modem. And you can escape of this RYF box any time you want
<devCon>
ok guys I'll help, but please, you devs... let's aim for the ultimate goal of getting that RYF stamp on the phone!!!!
<DocScrutinizer05>
we could even get RYF cert, by sending them the device without the "drivers" and docs for modem and WLAN
<DocScrutinizer05>
devCon: unless FSF rethinks their policy, no phone will ever get RYF cert
<DocScrutinizer05>
no *legal* phone
<devCon>
ohhh I see
<devCon>
so laws collide with ethics... it feels like pushing the bar up
<DocScrutinizer05>
the FTC et all cert rules say user must not be able to alter the firmware doing the GSM radio stack in any way (this doesn't apply to updates certified and provided by modem manufacturer). And FSF requires that user is able to make changes to that firmware
<devCon>
ok I get it now!!!
<DocScrutinizer05>
so there's no solution to this, except the nowadays not possible "let's burn the whole firmware to a write-once ROM and call it hardware"
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<DocScrutinizer05>
the latter is FSF's approach to this, and the reason they won't cert the Neo900 since it allows updates of the modem firmware, so FSF can not pretend the modem was a hardware blackbox
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<DocScrutinizer05>
if we'd lie to FSF and not tell them the modem is updateable, we could get cert
<DocScrutinizer05>
(if we would do something similar to WLAN too)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we won't lie or hide facts just to get a FSF approval. We're nevertheless convinced our device is as good as it gets and even better than what FSF would _reasonably_ request in best interest of user and freedom
<DocScrutinizer05>
we do the possible, FSF thrives for the utopy
<devCon>
woo I'm learning so much. I understand ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry i'm busy, will come back in a few hours. Don't hesitate to post further questions, I'll answer them when I'm back at keyboard