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<billstclair>
ioa: At the request of my one paid backer, I have renamed iSlime to Wilfred. It ostensibly stands for "Web Lisp FRont EnD", but is more a pun on "Fred" the Emacs clone inside of Macintosh Common Lisp, which I worked on and in from 1990 through 1997. https://github.com/billstclair/Wilfred
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<moon-child>
billstclair: why clojure instead of jscl
<moon-child>
?
<edgar-rft>
I was named Edgar because when I was made my parents still were using Ed.
<billstclair>
moon-child Because this is the first time I heard about jscl.
<moon-child>
:)
<billstclair>
It will be hard to convince myself to NOT use Elm, because I know and love it. Whatever I use has to be strongly typed and have a sizable library.
<billstclair>
edgar-rft: Heh
<moon-child>
if you wanna use elm, use elm. Why not?
<edgar-rft>
Because I don't wanna be named Elmar.
<billstclair>
moon-child: jscl is very cool. But I'm eventually going to need Emacs Lisp in JS, not Common Lisp. I may well settle on Elm, but I'm going to give ClojureScript a try, since that will likely be more natural for other Wilfred users to hack.
<billstclair>
But then, Clojure is not Common Lisp. It only looks like it, sort of.
<billstclair>
Elm is more like Haskell.
<moon-child>
what do you mean, you're going to need emacs lisp in js rather than common lisp?
<moon-child>
do you mean, you want to support code written in actual elisp? Easier to build compat shims from cl than from another language
<moon-child>
or, you want something with good integration with js? In that case maybe look at parenscript
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<billstclair>
I've used parenscript. It's a nicer syntax, but has all the drawbacks. If Elm copies, it NEVER gets run-time errors. You may be right that an elisp package for jscl would be easier to write than elisp in Elm or ClojureScript. My goal is indeed to enable existing elisp code to work in Wilfred. But that's a long time from now. It will initially use CodeMirror. Only when that works will turn that into an Emacs subset, and
<billstclair>
then, if I'm alive long enough, or a few others decide to help, clone.
<billstclair>
If Elm COMPILES, it never gets run-time errors.
<mfiano>
jscl has some crippling issues
<billstclair>
Do tell
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<mfiano>
Off hand, try 1d999 in the repl. It will not signal a condition, and just freeze the process/tab
<billstclair>
It's not as if interpreted lisps are that hard to write. Most of elisp-in-Elm would be elisp.
<imode>
thoughts on concatenative lisps?
<billstclair>
Ah, so it suffers the same problem as almost all JS.
<billstclair>
JS isn't a bad compiler target, but nobody should EVER write anything but low-level stuff in it
<billstclair>
imode:
<billstclair>
What's a concatenative lisp?
* mfiano
reported that issue and others quite a few years ago
<billstclair>
A few YEARS ago? Guess it's not active, eh?
<imode>
billstclair: one that use postfix notation instead of prefix notation.
<billstclair>
I'm not going to worry about elisp-in-js for now, anyway.
<billstclair>
Ah. HP calculator lisp. I remember writing that kind of code as part of my second Scheme interpreter on the PDP-11, back in 1979. The second one was built on a software virtual memory, which turned the PDP-11's 16-bit address space into 24 bits, with demand paging.
<billstclair>
Of course at a low level, that's what happens. Push arguments, maybe push continuation, jump to function.
<imode>
features a small lisp interpreter.
<billstclair>
Lambda: The Ultimate GOTO
<billstclair>
Must sleep. Buying a Ford F-150 tomorrow, so I probably won't sleep much, but I'll try.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<beach>
imode: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. There is no widely agreed-upon definition of what "Lisp" means, so it could be debated endlessly. Common Lisp, on the other hand, is quite well defined.
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<edgar-rft>
AFAIK Lisp is when you speak the eth with thome funny thound.
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<flip214>
edgar-rft: that's verbal Lisp. This here is more about the written version, with its grammar and so on.
<TMA>
flip214: You want to uſe it even medially: (ſetf *foo* (liſt *ſtandard-output* :ſb-bſd-ſockets))
<phoe>
...oh
<ecraven>
unless in german it's the end of a syllable... wach-ſtube vs. wachs-tube
<flip214>
TMA: it's complicated ;)
<ecraven>
(so in german, you cannot automatically decide whether to use ſ or s, unless you have a dictionary and understand the meaning ;)
<ck_>
shounds vaguely shcottish
<TMA>
In Engliſh, while it was ſtill uſ'd, 'twas optionally the caſe as well, if I recall correctly. But let's not ſtray from the channel's ſubject too far.
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<phoe>
true, we will again talk about common liſp now
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<aeth>
can someone write aliases for everything in the COMMON-LISP package, but with proper ſ usage? Then it's on topic
<edgar-rft>
flip214: only because I thpeak funny doesn't mean that i make grammar mithtakes :-)
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<flip214>
edgar-rft: is your first name Igor?
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<phoe>
aeth: two iſues I immediately ſee are CL:&REST and CL:&ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS
<flip214>
aeth: that's a TRIVIAL-LIſP package.... but there's no uppercase-version
<phoe>
these have special meaning since they are lambda list keywords, and so we would require custom macros that are able to parse those into the actually-CL versions
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<flip214>
phoe: can't we have multiple entries in a package pointing to the same symbol?
<phoe>
so, custom LAMBDA, DEFUN, DEFGENERIC, DEFMETHOD, DEFſETF, ...
<phoe>
flip214: entries, what do you mean?
<edgar-rft>
flip214: firtht name Igor but me write Edgar
<flip214>
well, don't make new symbols, but just import the CL symbols into the LIſP package with other hash-table-keys
<flip214>
that's what I'd understand as "alias"
<phoe>
yes, but then you will not be able to write &REſT
<phoe>
this will be read as a different symbol than CL:&REST
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<phoe>
sigh, we cannot easily fix this problem without custom macros and/or code walking
<phoe>
like, it's going to be non-trivial to do (defun foo (&reſt args) (liſt args))
<phoe>
aeth: I'm sorry but I must let you down
<aeth>
call it non-trivial-liſp then
<phoe>
:(
<beach>
If y'all are bored, I can give you some tasks to work on.
<easye>
beach: exactly.
* phoe
hideſ
<flip214>
beach: ſome taſks? ;)
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<edgar-rft>
has it thomething to do with THICL?
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<cl-arthur>
Looks like y'all changed alphabets tonight.
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<flip214>
(changle-class input 'αλφάβητο)
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<amirouche>
I have troubles building pgloader with ccl, I have compiled ccl, whereis ccl will return: ~/.local/bin. But then in pgloader git tree, I get: https://hastebin.com/ujahapafol.sh
<amirouche>
then ccl-dev$ ./lx86cl64 and inside the REPL, I typed: ? (rebuild-ccl :clean t)
<phoe>
yes, this seems OK
<amirouche>
somehow ccl end up in ~/.local/bin
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<phoe>
somehow?... it shouldn't do that, the rebuild should happen in the ccl-dev directory
<amirouche>
ah ok it is a previous install
<amirouche>
sorry
<amirouche>
How do I install ccl in ~/.local/bin ?
<phoe>
try doing MAKE cl=~/ccl-dev/lx86cl64 - I assume this is where your newest CCL is at
<phoe>
oh, wait, pgloader will have issues with that...
<phoe>
just remove the symlink from .local/bin and make a new one that points to ~/ccl-dev/lx86cl64
<amirouche>
ok
<dim>
look at the `make save` command in pgloader too, and you can do that manually
<dim>
ccl --no-init --load ./src/save.lisp
<dim>
that's the tentative new build system for pgloader, all written in lisp, bypassing the need to build and use buildapp, should just work in more cases including using lx86cl64 as the binary name for ccl
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<amirouche>
`make CL=ccl` failed with "missing mssql", I am trying: `make CL=ccl save`.
<pve>
Hi! If I wanted to estimate how much space a class definition requires, would this let me calculate a ballpark figure?
<phoe>
I guess so, yes; compare the room before and after
<amirouche>
dim: make CL=ccl save compiled successfuly pgloader :)
<pve>
phoe: thanks.. I get 912 bytes. Does that seem plausible?
<pve>
seems plausible to me, but I don't really know anything
<phoe>
so 114 64-bit words; seems plausible to me as well
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<flip214>
when using (ITERATE (FOR (a b c) IN ...) ...) I get "A is assigned but never read"; with a (DECLARE (IGNORE a)) I get "A is being set even though it was declared to be ignored."
<flip214>
Is there a way around that?
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<phoe>
looks like fallout from the recent SBCL updates
<phoe>
iterate might want to update itself to take this into account though I don't know how exactly; macroexpanding (iterate (for (a b c) in '())) does show that A B C are indeed assigned even though they are not used
<phoe>
flip214: try declaring them ignorable?
<phoe>
that's what SBCL's LOOP seems to do
<phoe>
and that's what iterate might need to do, too
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<flip214>
phoe: thanks... didn't think that IGNORE vs IGNORABLE would make a difference, but it does
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<phoe>
I know, right? it should be ITERATE that does this internally
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<flip214>
phoe: thanks, got an email ;)
<flip214>
also it would be great if ITERATE could be used together with CL-WHO... that means registering ITERATE in CL-WHO, and allowing the CL-WHO:HTM macrolet in ITERATE...
<phoe>
hmmmm, that sounds like a sizeable feature request and I don't feel competent to make an issue for *that*
<phoe>
useful though
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<ioa>
billstclair: re Wilfred: thanks for letting me know! I like human names for software. ^^
<billstclair>
I’m working on another small Elm project now. Hopefully, Wilfred will get some love next week.
<billstclair>
On the road. Six mile bike ride (each way).
* ioa
notes to self to go on bikerides more often
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<ldb>
good evening
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<beach>
Hello ldb.
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<cl-arthur>
phoe: ordered your book, looking forwards to patching my shoddy know-how :)
<daphnis>
what library would you use for a countdown timer, if you need to perform certain actions, like printing and playing sounds at various points in the countdown?
<daphnis>
cl
<daphnis>
tried with just sleep but it got a bit messy
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<flip214>
daphnis: an array of callback functions that is iterated downward
<amirouche>
an event-loop..
<amirouche>
there is a procedure like setTimeout in most event-loops
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<ldb>
get a thread to do scheduling
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<billstclair>
ioa ClojureScript looks more mature than Elm, likely because it has more than one guy working on it. Going to start Wilfred in that, and see how I like it.
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<Demosthenex>
so i need a unique name for a struct slot default value, could i generate it from the lisp obj address like what prints with an item without a pretty print?
<Demosthenex>
but using it in the constructor, how could i call sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address against self?
<phoe>
the lisp object address needs not be unique
<phoe>
the GC can move an object out of a memory location and then move another object into that memory location
<Demosthenex>
hrm, well i thought that was a clever hack :P
<Demosthenex>
yeah, so i'm working with a text field for xml that just needs to be unique in the file. once i make it a string it shouldn't change.
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<Demosthenex>
otherwise maybe i just use a random #, or stmp?
<phoe>
use a uuid!
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<Demosthenex>
hrm, uuid in quicklisp needs ironclad. that's a bit deep for my little text tag
<Demosthenex>
well, make-v1-uuid is simple enough. ty
<phoe>
remember that this library is llgpl
<Demosthenex>
and?
<Demosthenex>
(i'm out of dateon licenses)
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<thelounge28>
HEY
<phoe>
if you simply copypaste this code snippet into your project, you might need to redistribute the project under LGPL or GPL
<phoe>
thelounge28: hello there
<thelounge28>
hello phoe
<Demosthenex>
phoe: ah. ok, license virus. well, this is local while i tinker. so i'm not too worried.
<Demosthenex>
though i ended up using a random# in 10M with a prefix
<Demosthenex>
i am trying to use few dependencies
<Demosthenex>
i did read about the agpl recently, that's a great new idea =]
<Demosthenex>
been in oss for decades, and frustrated how much money is made without rewardng the programmers.
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<phoe>
there's been other similar developments, like SSPL or License Zero, but that's already #lispcafe material
<Demosthenex>
indeed, ty for answering my question =]
<dim>
I think the Varnish Moral Licence is another very practical way to attack the problem
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<_death>
use a counter?
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<beach>
thelounge28: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<ldb>
)off
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<thelounge28>
beach yeah man im new here.
<beach>
Great! Welcome! What brings you to #lisp?
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<amirouche>
thelounge28: welcome :)
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<thelounge28>
beach actually i`ve been thinking of reading sicp for a long time.. and got started reading
<thelounge28>
amirouche thanks man
<beach>
Sounds good. Though, SICP uses Scheme and this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
<beach>
Some people do the exercises in Common Lisp.
<amirouche>
there is also a #scheme channel ;)
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<thelounge28>
beach it is good you said that man thanks. i am also reading some other stuff related with dr.racket or common lisp books. really everything mixed up damn..
<beach>
That might get confusing since there are some significant differences between the languages.
<thelounge28>
amirouche im checking now..
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<thelounge28>
beach yeah man exactly.
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<cl-arthur>
-
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<ex_nihilo>
It seems that :test-not and all of the -if-not functions like remove-if-not, find-if-not, count-if-not, etc. were deprecated in the CL spec.
<ex_nihilo>
Sometimes using one of these seems like the right thing to do.
<ex_nihilo>
What is the feeling within the community about if or when the various -not constructions should be used?
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<_death>
they're perfectly fine
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<Bike>
yeah you can ignore the deprecation notice
<Bike>
i think someone got a little too excited when COMPLEMENT was added
<cl-arthur>
complement's cool though
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<ex_nihilo>
CLTL2 mentions the deprecations, but there is no rationale; did X3J13 provide rationales for deprecations?
<jackdaniel>
handling test and test-not is redundant with ability to supply :test (complement fun)
<Bike>
ex_nihilo: TEST-NOT-IF-NOT:FLUSH-ALL
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<ex_nihilo>
jackdaniel: right, but I didn't think that redundancy was ever a concern in the design of CL; and some days (REMOVE-IF-NOT #'EVENP '(1 2 3 4)) seems a bit more clear than (REMOVE-IF (COMPLEMENT #'EVENP) '(1 2 3 4))
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<jackdaniel>
and even cleaner is (remove-if #'oddp '(1 2 3 4)) :-)
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<jackdaniel>
I'm sure that it was at least some concern when designing cl, maybe it was not a primary goal
<ex_nihilo>
jackdaniel: touche ;)
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<jackdaniel>
name complement is a bit long, abbrieviating it with ! would make it cleaner
<jackdaniel>
#'evenp (! evenp)
<_death>
the test-not parameter is less defensible, but I still don't mind it much
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<jackdaniel>
I'm sure some devs would appreciate #!evenp ^_^
<jackdaniel>
(and some not)
<escanda>
slime autocompletes just fine with company mode :P
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<phoe>
(&key test test-not test-maybe)
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<Xach>
(&key test test-not there-is-no-try)
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<phoe>
Xach: more like (&key test test-not &disallow-other-keys)
<Xach>
surely the lisp critic would have words about that
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<jackdaniel>
not really a paradox
<jackdaniel>
it is not a function in mathematical sense
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<phoe>
Xach: oh well, we could name the block in some way
<phoe>
let me fix it
<phoe>
fixed
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<Xach>
phoew
<phoe>
okay that was so bad that it was good
<edgar-rft>
what somehow raises the question if there's a return from nil or if if we are doomed once we're there
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<Xach>
phoe: aww, that wasn't the direction i expected.
<Xach>
i expected a switch to plain (return ...)
<phoe>
oh
<phoe>
well then
<Xach>
i don't mind named blocks but i don't like referencing the implicit block with the function name, because it adds friction to function renaming.
<Xach>
i like nil blocks where usable
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<phoe>
(block t ...) simply means that the code encompassed by this form should block/be synchronous; (block nil ...) is a magic way to make it async!
<Xach>
don't be a block head.
<phoe>
okay sorry
* phoe
goes back to implementing the common-liſp package
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<easye``>
Xach: I have been ruminating over the distinction you pointed out between CL:WHEN and CL:AND. I have started using CL:AND much more. Thanks for the refinement.
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<easye>
"Ghostlier demarcations, keener sounds" of ANSI CL.
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<Xach>
easye: i use WHEN a lot but mostly for wrapping big chunks of defun bodies
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<easye>
The key distinction is about side-effects.
<easye>
And whether one expects the return value of the form to matter.
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<easye>
We have only 1084 symbols, damnit, and each one counts!
<phoe>
1084?
<easye>
err, that's my from memory external symbols in COMMON-LISP.
<phoe>
nah, not really; it's a Lisp-1 dialect in which the only data types are empty and proper lists
<mfiano>
phoe: interesting
<phoe>
so instead of calling symbols you call lists, and the structure of the list that is called defines which function gets called
<easye>
Well, the Surreals don't have computation defined upon them, per se. But the nesting of the sets by the parenthesis looks the same.
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<mfiano>
(loop for s being the symbols of :common-lisp count s) ;=> 977
<mfiano>
(length (loop for s being the symbols of :common-lisp collect s)) ;=> 978
<easye>
But then again, I consider myself a physicist forced to slum as a mathematician who whores out as a software developer.
<phoe>
mfiano: yes, this is because if S is NIL then COUNT does not increment
<phoe>
and CL:NIL is definitely a CL symbol
<mfiano>
ah yeah ok
<easye>
The point of the world, is to change it, and all that.
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<Xach>
that is such a great brain teaser
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<_death>
https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2111#2111 heap exhausted? ok maybe it wasn't such a good idea ;)... the answer is sb-kernel::package-external-symbol-count however
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<_death>
also chance of fun with delete-package
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<Xach>
Hmm, is there a way to get a "fast" (fill array 0) where array is a specialized vector of a supported integer type?
<Xach>
in sbcl, that is
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<phoe>
Xach: in theory you could pin the object, get the vector-sap, and then call memset on it
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<phoe>
but I wonder if #sbcl has it wrapped in a nicer way
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