<cl-arthur>
phoe: thanks for describing 5 for me, haha
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<aeth>
_death: let's make engnum a thing
<aeth>
someone should make a library that makes a deftype with #+sbcl #+ccl #+clisp etc. defines
<aeth>
Complete with a most-positive-engnum and a least-negative-engnum (hopefully the latter is just (- most-positive-engnum) because it just inserts a "negative" in front) and (defun engnump (number) (typep number 'engnum))
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<no-defun-allowed>
I fixed ~R on my SBCL to handle a few more digits.
<aeth>
newer version?
<no-defun-allowed>
Just add some more names to +cardinal-periods+ in src/code/target-format.lisp
<aeth>
oh, your own local modification?
<no-defun-allowed>
Yes.
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<pjb>
White_Flame: slime tells you who calls and who called.
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<White_Flame>
pjb: yeah, but that's not a graph report from all your functions
<White_Flame>
although if I were to cobble up something manually, I guess harvesting from those xref tools would be a start
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<edgar-rft>
My experience is that trying to display the call-graph of a non-trivial sized Lisp program only makes sense if you have a monitor in the size of a football field.
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<White_Flame>
sure, but even a textual tree would be useful
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Hello everbody.
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<asarch>
c++ has STL (std::vector, std::string, std::ifstream, etc), Squeak has the collections. Does Common Lisp has something similar (standard library a la CLOS)?
<White_Flame>
sequences
<White_Flame>
and streams
<White_Flame>
however, much of the stdlib is not method-based
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<asarch>
SBE (Squeak By Example) mentions the map function
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<White_Flame>
and CLHS mentions the MAP function as well (?)
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<asdf_asdf_asdf>
asearch. (lambda (x) (+ x 2))
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<aeth>
asarch: extensible sequences exists, but it is not afaik widely supported in implementations (but it is in the most widely supported implementation, SBCL, iirc)
<aeth>
I've never looked into it because I write portable code, but it's probably not going to be very satisfying when compared to C++ or Java.
<asarch>
Does the concept of "templates" exist in CLOS?
<aeth>
afaik, no, but it can be emulated semi-portably with macros
<asarch>
Common Lisp actually doesn't need them, right?
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't think CL needs those. Those are like head-hurting macros, right?
<aeth>
In Common Lisp, nearly everything is generic by default and it's harder to get specifics, so templates would only really be needed as a performance optimization, specifically for things like numeric arrays
<no-defun-allowed>
Or generics?
<asarch>
I mean, C++'s template are to not to have to write int int_foo(); float float_foo(); char *string_foo(); etc
<aeth>
right, but there's a runtime cost for just saying "true foo();" which is sort of what you're doing with CL
<aeth>
So in practice, things like type declarations do exist, and things like templates can be useful to automatically generate e.g. a single-float and a double-float version of an optimized function
<aeth>
In CL it's not that everything's typed "auto" (autoderive a type at compile time) it's that everything's typed "anything" (determine it at runtime) except in certain situations like type declarations or data structures that only hold a given type
<aeth>
But highly optimized compile time typed data structures are niche, and primarily numeric.
<asarch>
What would be the difference (in technical details) if I do: (defun show (window) ...) and (defmethod show ((w window)) ...)? I mean, a "normal" function vs a generic method if both could do the same task with well-written code
<asarch>
?
<aeth>
There's also the option of (defun show (window) (declare (type window window)) ...) ; or the equivalent with declaim ftype that's uglier and harder to type, these things would be macro-generated, though
<aeth>
The defmethod will do runtime dispatch on the class, the normal defun will assume the window can be any object until it runs into some function call or whatever where that fails at runtime, and the defun with the type declaration will do the type check before the function body, potentially optimizing things
<aeth>
more concretely: (defun foo (number) (+ number number)) will fail when doing the + if it's not a number, (defun foo (number) (declare (type number number)) (+ number number)) will fail at the start of the function call but not every implementation has to support that. (defun foo (number) (declare (type single-float number)) (+ number number)) is like the previous but will potentially optimize away the generic + to efficient asm.
<aeth>
and defmethod with similar numbers will only work if it is a class, which not all types are... but the advantage is that you could write a bunch of different foos and runtime dispatch
<aeth>
(and perhaps type declarations in the caller get rid of the runtime dispatch, I haven't tested it)
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<aeth>
asarch: So basically DEFUN has everything typed T (like an "anything" type) unless otherwise specified via the DECLARE/DECLAIM syntax (which unfortunately doesn't have to be supported with these semantics by all implementations), while DEFMTHOD obviously has the class (which is a subset of type; not all types are classes, e.g. (integer 3 42) the integer range) and can have multiple things of the same name but with different classes.
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<aeth>
I would prefer DEFUN over DEFMETHOD unless you need to do dispatch. It's easy to refactor one into the other. The advantage of something like a template would be generating efficient DEFUNs for e.g. single-float and double-float instead of requiring a foo/single-float and a foo/double-float version of your functions since the efficiency thing requires DECLARE or DECLAIM.
<asarch>
The other day I was talking about why Postmodern was not a la CLOS designed (query ibm-server-session ...) (query nasa-server-session ...) and a fellow replied that it was not OOP at all for him in spite of I was using the generic dispatch for the ibm-server-session and nasa-server-session objects and then I wondered this question defun vs defmethod
<asarch>
From his point of view, one could do (defun query (session) ...)
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<aeth>
Imo, unless it's an auto-generated accessor from DEFCLASS or designed to be very close to that, if it's used once with no dispatching, then it should be a DEFUN. There's a slight edge case where your API might except the user to define :after or :before methods etc. as well, which could make DEFMETHOD still useful.
<aeth>
By "used once" I mean e.g. only used for windows and you only have one type of window class, with no subclasses or w/e
<aeth>
everyone will have their own styles, though
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<aeth>
The hard part is actually how you want to dispatch when you need to, since TYPECASE in a DEFUN is another option
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<asarch>
In C++ you could overload the bool operator in order to check if the object was successfully created (in the case of Postmodern, if the connection was established). How could you do the same with CLOS?
<aeth>
In CL you don't do operator overloading, although you can define your own symbol definitions outside of the CL package or use a macro that looks up the symbols on its own
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<asarch>
(not (null ibm-server-session) ...)
<aeth>
well, that could happen just by making an object either NIL or the object
<aeth>
basically a union type (or null foo)
* no-defun-allowed
wonders what the second argument to NOT is
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<aeth>
... is 0 or more, clearly
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<asarch>
I mean, (if (not (null ibm-server-session)) (foo) (bar))
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<asarch>
(Or maybe with conditions)
<asarch>
Anyway, thank you very much!
<asarch>
See you later. Have a nice day :-)
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