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<reepca>
I find myself needing to use native namestrings for passing arguments to another program, and it seems that calling (namestring (make-pathname :name "a.b.c")) produces "a\\.b\\.c". I'm quite confused why this is. Does SBCL think that "canonical form" means "shell-special-characters escaped"?
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<reepca>
seems native-namestring is what I want... I vaguely remember running into this problem before
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<pjb>
reepca: it's implementation dependent.
<pjb>
reepca: if you pass the argument to another program that is NOT written in SBCL, then you want to pass NOT a PATHNAME or a NAMESTRING, but a POSIX path!
<pjb>
reepca: I would suggest NOT to use pathname at all in this case!
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<White_Flame>
reepca: the period is often used to separate name from type (extension), so that's probably the root of the backslashing
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<White_Flame>
although a literal of #P"a.b.c" creates a name of "a.b" and a type of "c"
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<pjb>
If c was numerical, it could create a pathname with :name :type and :version.
<pjb>
or NEWEST
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<minion>
emaczen, memo from pjb: lisp itself is just an assembler. Just avoid the most sophisticated macros (or consider lisp as a macro assembler and use them!). See for example: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/T3UZwLoN0lw/4r9q_8cwKoQJ THIS IS YOUR STABLE ASSEMBLER!
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<galdor>
$365 for something which is probably not fixable in 1-2 hours is depressing
<galdor>
I wish company using CL would start investing real money in this kind of thing
<Nilby>
Some very rare person already familiar with it might be able to do it in a few days, but I spent more than that just educating myself and doing background research.
<Nilby>
Also, in my opinion, doing it properly means making patches to CFFI.
<_death>
cffi can do that with libffi, though I had to patch things a bit to make things work for my use case
<Nilby>
Yes, but it isn't an ideal solution. It is hard to compile and find for some platforms, and then it dynamically creates a function call, which could "easily" just be compiled in.
<_death>
sure
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<Nilby>
Also CCL can do it. But only with the native FFI.
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<Nilby>
It's extra maddening because passing C structs by value is usually stupid anyway, and C struct layout can have a lot of edge cases.
<emaczen>
galdor: How much money does it need to get someone to fix it?
<Nilby>
Ok, just a sec..
<emaczen>
Nilby: Thanks, I think the biggest not is that test4 is the same as test3 (test3 works!) except test4 is using a C struct, which should rule out my other code from being problematic
<emaczen>
Nilby: Which to me would mean the most likely error is in the definition of the C struct for libffi
<emaczen>
note*
<Nilby>
Oh boy. Just looking at this is giving me bad memories of much crashing
<Shinmera>
galdor: It's more than 0$.
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<emaczen>
Yeah, the error I get is an Unhandled memory fault at #x0 to during the ffi:ffi-call
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<Nilby>
My recommendation would be to start with an easier struct. Like something with only a couple members. If there's one little thing out of place, you'll have trouble.
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<Nilby>
For the x86_64 abi sometimes struct member values that can fit in 64 bit words are just put in registers, but sometimes it points to the stack, so for anything complex it usually involves doing some stack allocating.
<Nilby>
But for small structs, there's just like immediate values.
<Nilby>
I'm sorry I can't immediately tell anything.
<emaczen>
Nilby: What would be a simpler struct than two uint64s?
<Nilby>
But one approach might be to get CCL to successfully make the call, and observe it very carefully. Or you could carefully observe objective C in the debugger.
<Nilby>
Hmm I guess you're right, that'a about as simple as it gets.
<emaczen>
Or what exactly makes this struct not simple? I would think of it as just a 16 byte block -- pretty simple
<emaczen>
oh, your reply -- nvm
<Nilby>
Is this on MacOS?
<emaczen>
No
<emaczen>
x86_64 linux
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<galdor>
emaczen: at less than 4 digits, I fail to see anyone investing real time and energy on it, given the fact that if it was trivial, it would already be done
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<galdor>
and since some CL implementations need patching (+ cffi to use it instead of libffi, good luck to have cffi updated), you're looking at significant work
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<Nilby>
I found my notes on it but it's for windows and ccl, and filled with expletives, so I don't think it will help.
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<emaczen>
hah, I think I'm going to have to try using CCL with its ability to handle C structs...
<emaczen>
Why does CCL have it done while SBCL doesn't?
<Shinmera>
Because nobody did it for SBCL yet? Why else
<beach>
Heh!
<emaczen>
Shinmera: There are probably some technical/market reasons
<galdor>
I think you do not really understand how most opensource works
<Shinmera>
The technical reason is that structs by value is a fucking mess in C and it's a pain to implement.
<Shinmera>
So nobody felt like doing it.
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<Nilby>
Exactly. It's even worse if you try to support 32 bit architectures.
<emaczen>
galdor: I don't
<galdor>
ok my bad
<galdor>
people usually work on what interests them, or on things they need for they personal projects
<galdor>
sometimes company pay for development because they need it
<galdor>
some devs will write some code because someone asked just to be nice, it happens
<Nilby>
In the case of CCL, Clozure had customers.
<galdor>
so if something is not developed, it's usually because no one needed it badly enough or it's such a PITA no one want to put their arm in the meat grinder
<emaczen>
galdor: Of course, I just saw that the bounty was originally filed as a bug/issue 10 years ago, then 7 months ago people put up $70 and now it is at $365 -- The specifics that you gave of 4 digits is what I really wanted to know
<Nilby>
But for SBCL, only google, reddit, and ycombinitor used it, so.
<galdor>
reddit does not use lisp anymore
<galdor>
YC run on some weird custom stuff running above mzscheme iirc
<Shinmera>
emaczen: The bounty went up because the bounty for CCL's PLNs was so successful I thought we could do it again for this problem that does affect me to some extent.
<galdor>
Google pays for a SBCL dev, but afaik it is for what *they* need for ex-ITA stuff
<galdor>
and about the 4 digits, I'm quoting a european monthly salary
<emaczen>
Shinmera: PLN?
<jackdaniel>
package-local nicknames
<galdor>
no one is patching something as tricky in SBCL, + CFFI support for what is barely 1 or 2 days of salary
<jackdaniel>
galdor: not all efforts are salary-driven
<galdor>
of course not, but since it has not been implemented in 10 years, there is little chance of it happening because someone is bored one weekend
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<Nilby>
Someone at yc said he was making an "arc" on sbcl to run HN
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<galdor>
there's nothing wrong with it, it's just that generally if you want something done in the opensource world, you can either pay or do it yourself
* jackdaniel
can testify, that many kind souls help him by fixing issues of their projects when he asks them nicely
<galdor>
again, it happens, but you cannot really count on it
<jackdaniel>
you can't count that money will do the job either
<jackdaniel>
same with your own effort
<jackdaniel>
so this point is a moot
<Nilby>
I only started working on it out of extreme conditions of trapped at my friend'ss house with a broken laptop and only a windows machine. So I was prepared to suffer.
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<jackdaniel>
sounds like a good beginning of a book :)
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<emaczen>
Nilby: In that note you showed me it says sizes of 8 16 ... below that 1-4 passed in regs
<emaczen>
Does that mean that the fields are passed in registers?
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<Nilby>
Yes, sometimes, depending on the sizes.
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<emaczen>
Since NSRange is 16 bytes it would fall into that category
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<Nilby>
Like immediate values.
<emaczen>
Nilby: Would you guess that this is why I am getting an unhandled memory fault?
<Nilby>
You can get that from nearly anything. If one bit/byte is off.
<Nilby>
But usually it's just the pointer is wrong, or it thinks something is a pointer that's not. Usually the error has the value which you can sometimes compare, by looking at the call it -tries- to create
<emaczen>
It just gives me #x0 and bogus stack frame
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<Nilby>
Nice. I usually just mash the stack till it works. There's finite combination of places to put values, then jump. You'll get some memory error until it works!
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<emaczen>
Nilby: Unfortunately, I'm not too accustomed to lower level programming... There were a number of times that I messed up pointer of pointers in CFFI -- It can be tricky working through several interfaces too
<emaczen>
Although I like the way CFFI handles C -- it makes more sense to me than C
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<phoe>
Good news: I've merged ACL support into trivial-package-local-nicknames.
<phoe>
Bad news: there are some tpln test failures on ACL. Any ACL user wants to investigate these?
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<Shinmera>
phoe: wouldn't it make more sense to contact support about them?
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<phoe>
Shinmera: it would, but I still need a little bit of help analyzing each of the test failures and producing proper bugtickets. That, or I'll need more time to properly figure all that out myself.
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<frodef>
Hi all
<frodef>
Any tips on preferred library for testing?
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<phoe>
frodef: there's only one rule: don't write your own testing library
<phoe>
other than that, any particular functionality you're looking for?
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<jmercouris>
I suggest Prove or Rove, both are fine for 99% of use cases
<frodef>
phoe: It's why I ask :) Just looking for basic "verify this form returns these values"
<frodef>
jmercouris: I see now cliki recommends rove or fiveam, guess I'll check out rove.
<frodef>
..which leads me to another question, any quick words on what "roswell" is?
<phoe>
roswell is an implementation manager
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<jmercouris>
Roswell is a CL distribution manager, think of it like RVM
<jmercouris>
s/distribution/implementation
<phoe>
which is a good idea in theory but the fact it has a core written in C makes me wonder if I should ever recommend it for anything more than auto-installing new SBCL versions by means of `ros install sbcl`
<phoe>
(and even that failed me multiple times in the past, especially on Windows)
<jmercouris>
I do not reccommend Roswell, personally
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<phoe>
roswell sets up quicklisp as a part of its initialization.
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<jackdaniel>
I was curious who put rove on recommended list for unit tests, but apparently "recent changes" on cliki is limited to only few months
<jmercouris>
it wasn't me
<jmercouris>
you have a problem with Rove?
<jackdaniel>
I did not said I have a problem with rove, I've said.. well, you have it written above
<jackdaniel>
or below, depends on irc client I suppose
<jmercouris>
I see
<jackdaniel>
oh, there is a separate "History"
<jackdaniel>
nvm my remark about cliki
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<beach>
frodef: I use a standard test system called ASSERT.
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<beach>
It works well with all kinds of testing paradigms, including my favorite one, namely randomly generated operations and comparison to a simple but inefficient implementation.
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<XenophonF>
anyone here familiar with the 40ants gen-deps-system tool?
<phoe>
XenophonF: what's the issue?
<XenophonF>
it's choking on a my package's reference to cl-json, which in Lisp has a package name of "json", not "cl-json"
<XenophonF>
looks something like (DEFPACKAGE ... (:IMPORT-FROM #:JSON)... )
<beach>
ebrasca: But it is obviously not guaranteed to work. If it were, you could use the personal edition of LispWorks, and figure out all the source code.
<phoe>
#'swank:find-definition-for-thing
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<jackdaniel>
for some reason always when I try to check out the sbcl function I log into Xof's computer :-)
<seok>
is the max heap size carried? or can I set it during deployment
<phoe>
that's some scripts around uiop:dump-image
<phoe>
again, implementation-dependent
<seok>
I am trying to move my webserver to cloud, and trying to figure out best way to deploy
<jackdaniel>
if you have a clean build process then you may want to build it on the host machine
<jackdaniel>
moving images between different hosts may be tricky
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<seok>
Right, that might be a good idea
<jackdaniel>
(putting aside architecture differences, libraries you depend on may be in different locations, so image may get confused, signals may be different so you'd need to do a cold-reinit etc)
<phoe>
I tend to run from source
<phoe>
even when deploying onto servers
<jackdaniel>
n.b I know as a fact that on AWS instances mutexes were not fair under SBCL, I think that it could be an emulation problem, but we've never got down the rabbit hole to find what's the real problem)
<jackdaniel>
speaking of a "cloud" - that's just a wet fog which does not belong to you, if you ask me ;)
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<seok>
well how else would you start a website from your garage? haha
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<pfdietz>
Having fun with shared-initialize and with boa lambda lists.'
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<Bike>
how do those intersect, exactly
<pfdietz>
Trying to add an argument to the constructor that says "default to the slots in this object"
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<pfdietz>
(make-instance 'foo :original obj-to-be-copied :bar 17) ==> copes obj-to-be-copied, but sets the bar slot to 17 instead.
<ebrasca>
phoe: How to use swank:find-definition-for-thing ?
<ebrasca>
phoe: From repl
<Bike>
where do boa constructors come in?
<pfdietz>
Boa lambda lists let you add extra keyword arguments, and use them in default values for others.
<pfdietz>
So you can define a boa constructor that works much the same way
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<ebrasca>
Shinmera: It is not giving me in what file it is.
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<Shinmera>
the implementation might not know.
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<ebrasca>
This "(swank:find-definition-for-thing (symbol-function 'command-inspect))" does what i need.
<Shinmera>
but then I don't know what you're doing either. Did you actually try to resolve the definition's source location with definitions:source-location ?
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<jmercouris>
froggey: have you tried Closure in Mezzano?
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<froggey>
jmercouris: no, what is it?
<jackdaniel>
it was an attempt to write a browser in CLIM
<froggey>
not really possible because of the javascript jit
<Xach>
great excuse to use cl-js!
<jmercouris>
well, yeah we'd have to make a JS runtime
<jackdaniel>
jmercouris: no, I've just said that "porting" your project to "pure" CL is not possible
<jmercouris>
anyways, first version without JS
<Xach>
there is a js runtime in common lisp already
<jackdaniel>
(given that it indeed is build on top of webkit)
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<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: sure it is, we have to make a renderer
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<jackdaniel>
or in other words, porting would be essentialy writing a web browser
<Xach>
i have long wished to make a project for non-CL-nerds which was scripted with cl-js
<Xach>
someday...
<jmercouris>
porting would be writing a web engine, not a web browser
<jmercouris>
a web browser is a chrome + a web engine
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<jmercouris>
Next is a chrome, which uses either webengine or webkit as its web engine
<jmercouris>
the confusion comes from the creative Google engineers
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<jackdaniel>
to me "web engine" is what constitues the majority of work (ux is important of course, I'm talking about time requirements though)
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<jmercouris>
web engine is an unfathomable amount of work, yes
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<jackdaniel>
in other words you say: "we have 0.01%, all we should do is to port another 99.99%", htat's what I mean that you'd have to write the browser from scratch
<jackdaniel>
I've meant when I've said*
<jackdaniel>
(again, I'm not saying that UX is not important, for some it might be even the most important thing)
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<jmercouris>
making a renderer that works without JS should not be impossible
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<pjb>
Only the implementation could allow it.
<pjb>
Nilby: you will have to implement your own make-string function along with all the string operators, to implement them with your strings, and fall back to CL operators for normal strings. Shadow, define your extended-string-lisp package, etc.
<Nilby>
pjb: Did that. My char-int returns 18138591213958233556254808, so it's probably better that I can't do it anyway.
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<pjb>
Nilby: happily, there are very few string specific functions. Most are vector functions that will work on your vectors.
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<Nilby>
Yes. That makes it easier.
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<Nilby>
I'm very thankful that the old CL people thought about it. It means at least format can print my characters.
<pjb>
Nilby: this is only by chance: a CL implementation could use not CL functions internally to implement CL functions.
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<pjb>
Nilby: in some cases, it has. For example, to read lists, you cannot use READ, because of the dotted lists.
<pjb>
READ or READ-DELIMITED-LIST. (the later is not READ-DELIMITED-LIST-OR-DOTTED-LISTS.
<phoe>
wait a second pjb
<Nilby>
No, it really works in every CL I've tested.
<phoe>
(read-from-string "(1 . 2)")
<pjb>
Nilby: to implement READ, you cannot use READ.
<pjb>
Or to implement the #\( reader macro.
<Nilby>
Well, yes, sort of, but only for structs.
<phoe>
pjb: I don't understand the part "because of the dotted lists"
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<emaczen>
What is the equivalent of the address operator & from C in SBCL? I know about sb-alien:addr but I'm looking for something I think that would come from sb-sys:
<Shinmera>
This has nothing to do with Common Lisp.
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<phoe>
this is some VC startup bullshit with three very nice puns at the end of the page
<no-defun-allowed>
You haven't seen nothing if you think Clojure is the best at abstraction.
<no-defun-allowed>
(also lol no MOP)
<aeth>
papachan: ##lisp is for the "Lisp" family of languages, #lisp (this channel) is for "Common Lisp".
<aeth>
papachan: I think you want to post that link to ##lisp instead
<LdBeth>
gg
<aeth>
(Whether or not Clojure is a Lisp because it doesn't use true conses for its syntax is a minor holy war on the Internet, but ##lisp's topic includes Clojure explicitly so it is on topic there.)
<aeth>
(Even though in practice ##lisp mostly just #scheme part 2 since most Lisps are Schemes)
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<Nilby>
"I wish Lisp was more popular.", while holding monkey's paw. Mu-hahhaha. Clojure, is knocking.
<no-defun-allowed>
Nilby: )^:
<emaczen>
Does anyone know of a standard C function using struct tm that I can test passing by value
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<Nilby>
emaczen: There aren't any. Nor in unix/linux kernel, or most unix-ish C lib. MacOS/iOS and Windows, do though.
<phoe>
emaczen: you could try writing your own trivial C function, prove that it works properly, and then compile it into a shared object that you then load.
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<phoe>
That would also mean that you have a minimal working PoC test case.
<phoe>
As in, not dependent on any other foreign libs.
<emaczen>
phoe: Yea, I've done some similar things
<emaczen>
I thought about generating a new objc function for every one that passes/returns structs with a pointer
<papachan>
aeth yeah iwould post it to ##lisp. so. sorry for this.
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<Nilby>
Pass by struct seems like weird quirk/misunderstanding of C, which C++ solved by just letting you not have to type literal '&'.
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<emaczen>
Does anyone think generating the equivalent objc methods with pointers instead of struct by values, and then compiling it as a shared object is too dirty? pjb: What do you suggest? fiddlerwoaroof_: what do you think?
<LdBeth>
I’ve seen things more dirty than that
<Shinmera>
emaczen: It's what I do in, for example, cl-steamworks
<Shinmera>
Not with objc, but just c wrappers to unpack/repack the structs.
<emaczen>
I just don't like that about 10% of all objc methods have a struct (really only NSRange NSPoint NSSize and NSRect)
<emaczen>
Shinmera: About what percentage of functions use structs?
<Shinmera>
there's three functions, so I just wrote it by hand.
<Nilby>
And I think mostly because it's an optimization becuase those can fit in a register or a few registers.
<emaczen>
Shinmera: Yeah, I did it once for a single objc method that I was overriding
<Shinmera>
you can probably get away with a generic un/pack function that you pass a function pointer + args to or something, so you only have to write it for each type of struct to un/pack.
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<emaczen>
Nilby: What optimization?
<Nilby>
Just that you don't have to do the extra de-reference if your struct can fit in a machine word or a couple of words.
<Nilby>
That way you also don't have to worry about allocation, which we don't worry much about in Lisp anyway.
<Nilby>
Note that they also "fixed" the issue in Swift.
<emaczen>
Nilby: Elaborate please.
<pjb>
emaczen: it depends on the ABI.
<Nilby>
To pass a struct by pointer, you have to allocate it in stack or heap, and then dereference it at least once, probably more. To pass by value, if it's small enough you can just cram it in registers and then call the function.
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<Nilby>
It does vary with ABI, so the way that it works could theoretically vary based on which complier, but there is a fairly standard way that's documented in, for example the Intel archetecture. Note that a Lisp FFI may have to do multiple ABIs.
<emaczen>
pjb: Why? I was just going to generate objc code by literally (with-open-file (format ) ....) then (run-program gcc ...) to compile it as a shared object
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Nilby, You mean (addr (slot (make-alien (struct your-struct)) 'slot1))?
<Nilby>
I had the misfortune of coding in C a lot before any C compiler could pass by struct.
<pjb>
emaczen: well, if you generate a simplier API, of course.
<Nilby>
asdf_asdf_asdf: Sort of, yes.
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<emaczen>
pjb: For example, with -(void)drawRect:(NSRect)aRect I could define -(void)drawRectPointer:(NSRectPointer)ptr and the implementation of drawRectPointer: would just call drawRect: by dereferencing the pointer
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<emaczen>
Nilby: How did swift "fix" it?
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<Nilby>
There are no pointers. Or at least you have to say the word "Unsafe" which is scary.
<Nilby>
But of course saying there are no pointers, is not really true, just like in Lisp. But really more like: let the compiler figure it out.