<dmiles>
that there is where it is loading a .lisp file showing how its compiling
<dmiles>
it is outputing github flavored markdown there
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<Bike>
implementations sometimes are built in more complicated ways than like, having some lisp subset and then loading the rest of the language in like a library file
<Bike>
ECL does do that, so you're on the right track there, i guess
<dmiles>
there is probably even 3 levels... MinimalSupport + InitalCompiledToBackend + LibraryCompliedToBackendEachTime
<dmiles>
yet the second might be called CL
<dmiles>
why i bring that is that up is that the LibraryCompliedToBackendEachTime is sometimes hard for me to tell from 2nd
<dmiles>
the 2nd (InitalCompiledToBackend) is stuff i see for sure becomes C files
<Bike>
if i'm supposed to know what these "levels" mean based on their names i uh, don't, sorry
<dmiles>
Sorry I should call them build passes
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<dmiles>
sorry.. i'll have to think a bit on how to phrase what i am asking
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<dmiles>
well what i should say.. is what be even more awesoem for me is if ECL wasnt bothering to make C files
<White_Flame>
you mean an interepreter?
<Bike>
"bothering"...? that's like, how it works
<dmiles>
or better if a CL was never able to compile or translate anyhting.. if it was all merely an interpreter.. in which then i could decide where/when to compile things
<White_Flame>
maybe you should look at older CLISP then
<Bike>
if you have your own implementation it doesn't need to compile anything until compile or compile-file is called
<dmiles>
ok, looking at older CLISP
<White_Flame>
while I haven't poked into your details, are you wanting to compile CL into Prolog, or interpret CL from Prolog?
<dmiles>
I have been so far compiling to Prolog (thus translating) then loading/executing the translated version
<dmiles>
but I am starting to be jsut as happy if i was interpreting
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<dmiles>
then finish off teh compiler later
<dmiles>
the translator/compiler is mostly working but the last 29% of the code i need to write for it is still unknown.. heck it might be 50% still i need to do
<White_Flame>
the first 90% of the code takes 90% of the time. The final 10% takes the other 90% of the time.
<dmiles>
hehe .. that indeed is the problem
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<dmiles>
one problem was even though ECL code was helping out i still have to remove anything related to C backend
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<dmiles>
but still open to suggestions if someone knows of a CL interpreter that 90% or more is just written in .lisp
<dmiles>
such an interpreter would fake out compile/compile-file
<aeth>
well, compiling in that context would be bytecode compiling
<dmiles>
that be acceptable as long as if it expected to bytecode its system libs i can get in there and stop that
<White_Flame>
do you want to interpret s-expressions directly?
<White_Flame>
I think picolisp does that, but it's not CL
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<dmiles>
i want it (the impl) to have done that.. But I am actualyl compiling
<dmiles>
if my compiler was broken one day.. it be nice to still have something that worked
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<dmiles>
yeah... like picolisp but common lisp :)
<Bike>
i don't really get it
<Bike>
if you just want an interpreter written in lisp t here's ones in sbcl and stuff
<Bike>
but then you need a lisp to start with
<dmiles>
even with such an interpreter .. i am still taking chunks out of its interpeter making it call my compiler first then executing
<dmiles>
Bike: in the case with SBCL i would need to ensure it could be used with its compiler completely broken
<dmiles>
Current version of SBCL that might not work, but maybe older versions
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<Bike>
i think the sb-interpreter package doesn't need the compiler, but i could be wrong
<dmiles>
impls seem to start out close to what i am starting out with and then over time they drift futther away
<dmiles>
(in order to become faster.. etc)
<Bike>
using the compiler is really convenient.
<Bike>
you could also write an interpreter yourself. i have most of a closure compiler (which would be portable) somewhere, i just didn't see a demand
<Bike>
the annoying parts are parsing declarations and parsing lambda list bindings, but you can sorta jank code for that
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<dmiles>
in my host language i wrote a compiler and interpreter that handlers defun/defmacro/lamda etc... it parses the lambda lists and produces host language stub functions that call them etc.. i qualkify it as janky code :P
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<dmiles>
Bike: "most of a closure compiler (which would be portable) somewhere" i'd love to look at it and see if i can use it
<dmiles>
So the closures it would create might still be serializable to CL
<Bike>
it takes a tagbody form, and returns this (lambda (stack) ...) closure
<dmiles>
yep like that
<Bike>
but to compile the compilerer system you need to have like a working loop macro and stuff, here
<dmiles>
(just i might return the lambda quoted for me)
<dmiles>
oh .. my lisp mostly works.. it passes quite a few ANSI tests
<White_Flame>
do you compile LET into LAMBDA somewhere in there? seems like it would be the most obvious one
<White_Flame>
^Bike
<Bike>
i don't remember
<White_Flame>
I was just poking through and didn't notice it
<Bike>
the annoying one is let* since you have to figure out which declarations go with which bindings
<White_Flame>
ah, I could see that
<Bike>
lambda is annoying because you have to pase the lambda list and also worry about special bindings
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<dmiles>
yeah i insert a closure of restoration of specials
<dmiles>
i think my impl might be good enough to run sb-interpreter
<dmiles>
i have a working package system.. readtables, arrays, hashtable .. quitre a bit of CL implemented
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<dmiles>
"yeah i insert a closure of restoration of specials" this is done gensyming a tempvar savign a value.. then SETQing the specials at LET[*] time .. then SETQing back at body exit time
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<White_Flame>
dmiles: as long as that still runs when unrolling from conditions or throws
<White_Flame>
also you have to consider threading effects, as dynamic bindings should be thread-local
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<dmiles>
i am using unwind-protect for the restorations .. but hrrm the threading side effect i realized i not actualyl done it correctly now
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<dmiles>
-side
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<dmiles>
i maybe should do symbol-value as a thread local property
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<White_Flame>
symbol-value has both a global binding and optionally a thread local one
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<dmiles>
oh right actually.. if no thread-local one had been started .. a SETQ would hit the global?
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<White_Flame>
yes, and all threads see that, if they haven't created their own binding
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<White_Flame>
in SBCL, referring to a special var's value checks the TLS value first, and if it's unbound, returns the global symbol-value
<dmiles>
oh interesting.. after the SETQ that hits the Global i might start lettign this thread have the Binding it jsut set as if thread local
<White_Flame>
the TLS value is mutated, storing old values on a stack, as you do
<dmiles>
this thread will pretend from then on it is thread local
<White_Flame>
and yeah, setting a variable has to check the TLS as well, to determine where it goes
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<dmiles>
(this allows otehr threads to nanoselconds later to manip the Global and it wont hurt the thread that just did the same thing
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<White_Flame>
(let ((*x* *x*)) ...)
<dmiles>
(the thread that previously setq'd))
<White_Flame>
would capture the current global value into tls (assuming no existing outer binding)
<dmiles>
(oh, though that there leaves it as a TLS.. i should undo that)
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<jeosol>
ping beach:
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<jeosol>
Good morning everyone
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<jeosol>
I have a CLOS question: Do slots initialized with :default-initargs in the base case, are the values carried over in the derived class?
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<jeosol>
*base case -> base class
<Bike>
default-initargs are inherited. i think
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<jeosol>
Thanks Bike. That's what I expected, but I am getting some weird behavior. Let me check my code again.
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<jeosol>
Bike: I seem to get correct behavior if I re-specify default-initarg for the slot in the derived class. It doesn't appear it is carried over
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<Bike>
paste?
<jeosol>
This is excerpt is from PCL: This option is used to specify forms that will be evaluated to provide arguments for specific initialization parameters that aren't given a value in a particular call to MAKE-INSTANCE
<Bike>
if you paste your code i might be able to figure out your problem
<jeosol>
My code is just messy now, I need to refactor a bit for clarity. I may have chosen a poor design for my class structures.
<jeosol>
Let me see how I can do that, it's a fairly complex system with lots of files.
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<jeosol>
Bike: Thanks. It was a bug in my code. I had 3-level inheritance and mixed up the inherited class at 2nd level
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<Bike>
happy to be of assistance
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<jeosol>
I picked a complex class structure where I am stringing a lot of concepts together (A,B,C,D), with each concept taking a few options/cases (e.g., A1, A2). I am now creating several classes: (defclass A-B-C-D () .) (defclass A1-B-C-D (A-B-C-D) () (:default-initargs ...))
<jeosol>
It then became difficult to manage the options and possibilities. Perhaps a different design would have been more tractable. When I started, I modeled this case after the stream example in Sonja Keene's CLOS book.
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<markasoftware>
From the (defclass) CLHS docs: "The :accessor slot option specifies that an unqualified method is to be defined on the generic function named reader-function-name to read the value of the given slot and that an unqualified method is to be defined on the generic function named (setf reader-function-name) to be used with setf to modify the value of the slot. "
<markasoftware>
How can the generic function be "named" as a form?
<markasoftware>
(for the writer)
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<pjb>
markasoftware: this is a special case. Functions can be named either by a symbol, or by a list where the first element is CL:SETF and the second a symbol.
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<pjb>
markasoftware: those functions can be used in the expansion of the setf macro.
<pjb>
markasoftware: note: there are other ways to implement accessors used by setf that are not functions named (setf foo), such as setf-expanders, and other implementation specific ways.
<markasoftware>
So there's no symbol whose function slot holds that setter?
<pjb>
and Section 5.1.2 (Kinds of Places).
<pjb>
markasoftware: this is implementation dependent.
<markasoftware>
huh
<pjb>
markasoftware: some implementation intern a symbol named |(SETF FOO)|, some put an entry in the symbol-plist of FOO, etc.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<beach>
It is interesting to see that jmercouris seems to assume a particular way of bootstrapping Common Lisp, i.e., that it has to be built from a small subset of itself. As it turns out, that is a very painful way of bootstrapping a Common Lisp system.
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<Dibejzer>
Hey, can I ask a question
<beach>
Of course.
<Dibejzer>
The question is about running Lisp scripts
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<Dibejzer>
I am trying the hello world script found here
<Dibejzer>
i cannot run it with just typing hello-world.lisp in the terminal
<Dibejzer>
Needless to say, I'm still a noob with Linux
<beach>
Dibejzer: I'll let someone else answer. I never run my Common Lisp programs that way.
<Dibejzer>
Thanks anyway beach :)
<Dibejzer>
And, just for the sake of curiosity, what do you use Lisp for?
<beach>
Me? Research.
<no-defun-allowed>
Dibejzer: I think that is a shell problem, not a SBCL problem. Did you `chmod +x hello-world.lisp` first and run it using `./hello-world.lisp`?
<Dibejzer>
sudo: ./hello-world.lisp: command not found
<Dibejzer>
no-defun-allowed: nope, I didn't :)
<Dibejzer>
gimme a sec
<no-defun-allowed>
And most certainly, do NOT run it with sudo unless superuser permissions are necessary.
<Dibejzer>
Hey, this worked!
<Dibejzer>
Iiiif you could just be kind enough to tell me what I did there :)
<no-defun-allowed>
If you run a program with sudo, it can pretty much do whatever with your computer, as it is run as the `root` user.
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<Dibejzer>
hm, coming from windows this thing is a bit strange
<Dibejzer>
i find myself using sudo way to often, yet again i'm advised not to
<Dibejzer>
So I must be doing something wrong
<no-defun-allowed>
It would be like rightclicking the program and selecting "Run as Administrator".
<no-defun-allowed>
You absolutely are doing something wrong.
<Dibejzer>
I'm on my "learning iteration" with Linux.
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<no-defun-allowed>
These are Unix problems and not Lisp problems though, so I should probably leave them though.
<Dibejzer>
But, even "simple" actions, like entering folders quite often are impossible without sudo
<Dibejzer>
Yeaaah, we're off topic at this point
<phoe>
Dibejzer: if you can't enter a folder without sudo there's usually a very good reason for that
<Dibejzer>
Nah, even opening nautilus asks me for password
<no-defun-allowed>
Then you should change the permissions on those directories so that your regular user can read them instead of using a hammer^W^Wsudo on them.
<Bike>
that's a pretty painful looking slam
<aeth>
Dibejzer: you can always discuss it in #lispcafe (the off-topic channel) but that doesn't sound typical
<aeth>
like some configuration is horribly wrong or something
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<Dibejzer>
So, is it a normal workflow that you have to manually change permissions for so many folders?
<aeth>
no
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<Dibejzer>
didn't think so :)
<aeth>
pretty much everything in modern Linux/Unix is done in /home/your_name and permissions don't really come into play unless you e.g. want to make install SBCL globally (but you can install SBCL locally, I do... in fact, usually /home is much larger than / so you literally can't install everything globally)
<aeth>
(since they're usually separate partitions)
<aeth>
Literally all of my programming is done locally, including installed language implementations. The only thing related to #lisp that I have installed in the root partition under /usr is stumpwm, the window manager, afaik
<aeth>
locally to my user rather than to all users, not like there are more than one user
<aeth>
Users are kinda repurposed to sandbox certain things like httpd
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* no-defun-allowed
still grabs SBCL from the Arch repository since that's usually close to the newest version
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<Dibejzer>
I understand the concept, but will take some time to understand how to implement it
<Dibejzer>
i always just recklessly sudo apt-get install stuff
<Dibejzer>
for now :D
<Dibejzer>
but, for example, the script we chmoded back there was in the ~/.clisp/hello-world.lisp
<no-defun-allowed>
Installing is one of the legitimate uses for sudo, running hello world programs probably is not.
* no-defun-allowed
is off for dinner
<aeth>
Installing things globally under root is dangerous because you can really mess things up if you're outside of your distro's package manager unless it's installed under /usr/local/ and even then it might mess up some things.
<aeth>
If it's under your home directory ~/ then the worst case is that it can mess up everything in home, which is only 85% of everything that's important :-p
<aeth>
Well, at least you can backup home.
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<Dibejzer>
So, the "sudo" needed for /home/ is there for a reason?
<Dibejzer>
instead, i should be going to /home/myname/?
<aeth>
no, you should not need sudo to access anything under /home unless it's under another user's home, but you only really need one "real" user who has a home
<aeth>
or, yes, under /home itself
<aeth>
but /home is for usernames
<aeth>
e.g. /home/aeth
<Bike>
i don't think this is the ideal channel for untangling why your system is apparently so untrusting of you
<aeth>
Do everything under /home/aeth, which if that's you is also ~/
<Dibejzer>
Okay, gonna stop now with the off-topic. Thanks a lot guys, and I apologize :)
<aeth>
Dibejzer: Anyway, the tldr is to write simple scripts under ~/bin (and chmod +x them) that set the correct environment variables (because often that's the only way to do it) and install stuff like SBCL locally. e.g. for SBCL I installed it to ~/.local I have a "export SBCL_HOME=/home/myname/.local/lib/sbcl" followed by the path to the ~/.local/bin/sbcl
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<aeth>
(then you only need sudo for updating the repo-provided CLs)
<Shinmera>
if you move on from the repl you might want to look into bigger things like parachute or whatever else. there's a thousand of them out there, so pyp.
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<Demosthenex>
heh, assert. ;]
<Demosthenex>
i'm seeing quite a few, that's why i asked. looks like alot of duplication, not alot of differences.
<Demosthenex>
i think i read about parachute once before
<Demosthenex>
just tinkering with a restful api, and wanted to start capturing things i'm doing in the repl as tests
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<phoe>
1+ for assert
<phoe>
in the REPL, you need no testing framework
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<phoe>
if you want to run a bunch of automated tests, choose one of the already existing ones - 1am, fiveam, parachute, fiasco, anything.
<phoe>
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES YOU SHOULD WRITE A NEW ONE.
<Demosthenex>
phoe: i agree with that! ;]
<phoe>
gosh I always feel bad after using full caps
<Demosthenex>
no, i have no desire to reinvent the wheel
<phoe>
but this needs to be pressed
<phoe>
soon we will have more testing frameworks than lispers
<Demosthenex>
and yes there is reason to use a testing framework with teh repl. i nail down a piece of code and test it on the repl, i need to record that in a test so it repeates later
<phoe>
oh, so it's no longer REPL-only
<phoe>
I default to 1am in the beginning since it is so dumb that I can fully understand it after reading its source
<phoe>
it is also one page long
<phoe>
then if that is inadequate, I migrate to parachute
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<Shinmera>
you can just (defun test () (assert ..) ..), you know
<phoe>
but yes, Shinmera's solution is the simplest test framework you can do
<phoe>
and (defun test-all () (test-1) (test-2) (test-3) (test-4) ...) is your test suite
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<Demosthenex>
caretul, that's dangerously close to writing your own
<Demosthenex>
ideally libraries exhibit best practices anyway
<Shinmera>
if only
<Demosthenex>
ssh! let me keep my noobish optimism
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<Shinmera>
Also, almost any discussion in here about what a best practise might be will inevitably result in hours long discussions, so I don't even know if such practises exist :)
<Demosthenex>
ha!
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<Demosthenex>
wtf, gigamonkeys is down?
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<Demosthenex>
hrm, archive.org shows a good copy as of nov 18
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<vydd>
phoe: hm. does any of the frameworks you listed support parametrization? (I tried looking at all of their docs, but couldn't find any hints on that)
<Xach>
Hmm, is there a good way to get in touch with Leo Zovic other than filing bug reports?
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<samebchase>
Well, his email is on his Github profile.
<Xach>
Is anyone here a close personal friend or possibly housemate of Leo?
<Xach>
samebchase: i think filing a bug report sends an email
<samebchase>
ah
<phoe>
vydd: parametrization as in running the same test body with different input each time?
<vydd>
phoe: yes
<phoe>
vydd: typically you do not need that in Lisp due to its functional nature; you can write a single test that has (dolist (test-datum *test-data*) (is (goodp test-data)))
<phoe>
where *test-data* os specified elsewhere
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<vydd>
phoe: wouldn't a test framework mark the whole test as failing in that case?
<phoe>
yes, the test fails, but you then know which exactly forms have failed
<phoe>
for which values of test-datum, that is
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<vydd>
either I'm confused about how ..parachute in your case? works, or we're talking about different things... let me test that code and get back to you
<phoe>
it's not idiomatic parachute code
<phoe>
I'm in a bus, can't really use a proper emacs now - maybe Shinmera will be able to assist
<phoe>
I'll be back around in 48 hours from now
<vydd>
no problem, have a safe trip
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<vydd>
curious thing, btw. with no docs, I just tinker with the code and try to make stuff work through autocomplete. when docs are available, and especially as comprehensive as Shinmera's, I try searching in docs first, and when I fail, I kind of assume the feature is simply not supported
<phoe>
so an example should perhaps be added, yes
<phoe>
vydd: glad that you figured it out
<vydd>
phoe: would've taken me much longer if you hadn't helped me out :)
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<Shinmera>
vydd: In those cases I typically construct my own test result instances instead of relying on IS etc, so that the overview shows the proper values.
<Shinmera>
It's a bit cumbersome though, so I might have to look into a way to improve that and add it to the docs.
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<Shinmera>
IS, etc. are just thin macros. If you expand one (or look in testers.lisp), you should be able to figure out how to get it done.
<Shinmera>
Also, doing parametric tests like that can quickly explode the number of test cases. I should add a way to bundle tests or suppress them from being displayed in the overview.
<Shinmera>
trying to run uax-9's tests with the default report will kill your emacs, for instance.
<Shinmera>
(it expands to almost two million tests)
<vydd>
oh wow..yeah, that ... sounds like a bit too much
<Shinmera>
All in the name of unicode compliance :)
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<vydd>
(I've read with-shuffling, and I'm aware it won't work, I just wanted to get the point across)
<Shinmera>
parametrisation is already supported.
<vydd>
oh, it is? :) that's how this whole thing started - I couldn't find it in docs, and then phoe offered dolist as a solution... so, how do I do it?
<Shinmera>
You don't use IS, as I said above.
<Shinmera>
(loop for test in (alexandria:shuffle (loop for x from 0 to 10 collect (make-instance 'parachute:comparison-result ..))) do (parachute:eval-in-context *context* test))
<Shinmera>
something like that.
<Shinmera>
IS and all are just a wrapper around e-i-c and make-instance.
<Shinmera>
you could also write a result that first gathers all tests, then shuffles them, and then evaluates them, then bind *context* before doing IS.
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<Shinmera>
Maybe with-shuffling ought to do that, but it might also be surprising. I don't know.
<jjkola>
hi
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<vydd>
understood. I thought there was a way other than the cumbersome one (your words! :)) when you said "supported", that got me confused
<Shinmera>
Ah, no, unfortunately not.
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<vydd>
do you accept PRs? I guess the real problem would be agreeing on the right API. maybe a new thing like DEFINE-PARAM-TEST could be introduced.. not sure
<Shinmera>
Sure.
<Shinmera>
Designing the right API is indeed the problem. I don't consider it urgent enough of a problem right now, though, since you can just construct the instances.
<vydd>
true...well. you know what, when I get to the stage I want to have regression tests in the app I'm working on, I'll try with parachute, and if make-instance starts getting annoying, we can chat again
<Shinmera>
Sounds good!
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<Xach>
Hmm! I need to provide an alternate name for http://beta.quicklisp.org/client/quicklisp.sexp because the "sex" substring is blocked for many people behind (very stupid) content filters.
<Xach>
What do you think of quicklisp.plist?
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<Shinmera>
I think I typically do .dat.lisp or something.
<pfdietz>
When using the RT test framework, I would use the idiom of having the form under test return NIL for success, otherwise it would return information about which specific input caused the failure.
<vydd>
Xach: sounds good... just not sure if it would be interpreted in a special way on macOS
<vydd>
or is it only Info.plist that's special?
<Shinmera>
pfdietz: In Parachute the test-result instance typically returns the result of the form under test when evaluated.
<Shinmera>
so you can do stuff like (is = 5 (thing (finish (make-instance '...))))
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<pfdietz>
I'm guessing the IS macro is so one can put several tests together that share some expensive set up and teardown code.
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<Shinmera>
IS is just a comparsion test.
<Shinmera>
FINISH is just a "does not error" test.
<Shinmera>
so FINISH returns the result of make-instance after completing the test, which is then the value for the thing function, that serves the IS comparison.
<pfdietz>
RT just has test definitions that look like (deftest <test-name> <test-form> <expected-results>)
<Shinmera>
But yes, it's mostly to avoid expensive computations.
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<pfdietz>
No "IS" needed.
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<pfdietz>
But each test has to set things up and tear down by itself.
<Shinmera>
I see.
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<pfdietz>
One thing I added to rt in ansi-test was the ability to execute the tests repeatedly, in random order. This found a bug in SBCL (some persistent state in the handling of certain method combinations). Not quite the same as with-shuffling.
<Shinmera>
Right.
<Shinmera>
There's a lot of stuff that could be added to Parachute that's found in other frameworks, I'm sure :)
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<pfdietz>
I just want to understand what all the various frameworks are bringing to the table, so one can be extended to cover all bases.
<Shinmera>
The latter is what Parachute tries to do. It has a very flexible evaluation model, which I tried to put to the test by writing compatibility layers that emulate the syntax and semantics of other frameworks.
<pfdietz>
Interesting.
<Shinmera>
I'd tackle more frameworks if I had time to spare.
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<pfdietz>
I need to find that usage summary for the various test frameworks in quicklisp systems. A few had most of the "market".
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<puchacz>
hi, I can't find in ccl manual - are hash tables thread safe? is there a special keyword to make them safe?
<pfdietz>
In SBCL there is a keyword, but I don't know about CCL. It's not from the CL standard in any case.
<puchacz>
I remember in sbcl :synchronized t
<puchacz>
I did not even install ccl, just want to try something, because there might be a bug in sbcl /hunchentoot when running on multiple cores.
<puchacz>
I will wrap it in with-lock myself
<puchacz>
actually not easy, gethash is not a generic function :-)
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<puchacz>
so maybe there is a library that would let me define around defuns, like in CLOS, so I can wrap calls to gethash and similar?
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<Bike>
you can't redefine standard functions
<Bike>
you could make your own function with the same name in a different package
<beach>
Bah, GETHASH should already be generic. :)
<puchacz>
Bike: I found a rumour ccl hashtables are thread safe and lock free
<puchacz>
when running the same delivered image locally on my PC, which is 4 cores virtual box, it is not crashing
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<puchacz>
but I rented a 32 core virtual computer and use it remotely
<pfdietz>
I wonder if SBCL could use a threading mode that does things more randomly, so bugs could be exposed with fewer cores.
<puchacz>
it is running a numerical model fitting, hunchentoot is for giving arguments to the cost function, it does the calculations in multiple threads, joins into a single result and returns it via hunchentoot to the "driver" routine
<puchacz>
the "driver" minimization routine runs on my PC
<puchacz>
I am trying now with sbcl 1.5.5, to see if there is a difference
<_death>
puchacz: this log indicates (i) corruption (ii) use of a bad file descriptor (maybe after being closed) .. do you know the reason for ii?
<pfdietz>
beach: it is of course conforming for an implementation to make GETHASH be generic, but no conforming program can exploit that.
<puchacz>
death: I don't read any files
<pfdietz>
(well, unless it first tested for it)
<_death>
puchacz: it's a socket file descriptor
<puchacz>
death: as if http connection was corrupted?
<puchacz>
it happens only after few hundred goal calls
<_death>
puchacz: I would guess that the socket got closed but still its fd being passed around
<beach>
pfdietz: Right.
<puchacz>
death: what does it mean and anything I can do about it?
<_death>
puchacz: as for the memory corrutpion, I don't know that it has to do with the fd trouble.. for that I would either pepper my source code with log forms to try to localize the problem, or try to use sbcl's debugger (ldb) to figure out more, or maybe use other tools.. maybe good to consult #sbcl to get tips on how to debug that
<mister_m>
Can someone help me find documentation on the `:read-file-form` function I see used when defining some asdf systems? For instance, when loading a version -- :version (:read-file-form "version.txt"). Google is really failing me.
<puchacz>
death: it seems it may be time for me to learn about ldb on sbcl channel
<_death>
at least it's good to log the thread ids and their roles (e.g., "hunchentoot handler thread", "acceptor thread", etc.).. the thread id where the corruption is detected is in the error message
<_death>
that of course does not mean that that's where the corruption happens.. but may provide clues
<puchacz>
is it possible to corrupt the image by improper use of threading you think?
<puchacz>
I understand I can corrupt data structures in my program in a sense of having something unexpected in a variable or cons cell, but can I break lisp itself?
<mister_m>
Bike: thank you!
<puchacz>
as of thread names, mind that it crashed before reaching my computations code
<puchacz>
so within hunchentoot
<_death>
puchacz: #sbcl is better informed than me on that.. but note that your program uses ffi (cl+ssl)
<puchacz>
hunchentoot loads it
<puchacz>
so I unload before deliverying the image and then load it back
<puchacz>
I think it is hunchentoot, I just checked that it was loaded, so I unloaded it
<_death>
you can also consider sb-bsd-sockets to have ffi qualities
<puchacz>
yes, anything that talks to operating system I think
<_death>
maybe it's possible to break into the debugger when corruption is detected
<_death>
again, you should ask #sbcl :)
<puchacz>
will do
<puchacz>
thank
<puchacz>
s
<puchacz>
mind that I was in the debugger - I typed foreground, and then backtrace
<_death>
yeah, you landed there because of the second issue, I'm guessing. but I'm talking about the low-level sbcl debugger
<_death>
(ldb)
<puchacz>
ok
<puchacz>
will talk to sbcl people
<puchacz>
as we speak, sbcl 1.5.5 is running just fine now, for about 30 minutes
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<_death>
if it's a multithreading-related bug, it's not really indicative :)
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<puchacz>
of course
<_death>
I wonder if valgrind could work with sbcl
<puchacz>
I don't know C/C++
<_death>
well, if there's memory corruption some low-level knowledge may be needed to find out the problem
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<puchacz>
learn-by-doing then
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<jmercouris>
Anyone know of a CL LSP or efforts to create one to allow for easier editing of CL outside of the Emacs ecosystem?
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<beach>
jmercouris: Yes, I am working on SICL, and I am planning (with a lot of help) and IDE that is not Emacs based.
<jmercouris>
beach: CLIMACS will use a LSP?
<beach>
Maybe. I know there are attempts to create an editor using the LSP, but I don't know whether it will be Second Climacs.
<jmercouris>
I see
<beach>
You might want to ask scymtym. He knows more about it than I do.
<jmercouris>
did you read the conversation yesterday about creating a CL?
<beach>
I did.
<jmercouris>
Have you thought about creating a "blue" and "yellow" pages?
<beach>
There is no unique smallest subset of Common Lisp like the one you are asking about.
<jmercouris>
would you know if it is calculatable?
<jmercouris>
is there a way to write a program to figure it out?
<beach>
I doubt it. First of all, we have no measure about "smallest".
<jmercouris>
This is true
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<jmercouris>
I guess we would have to define size by some measure
<beach>
About splitting Common Lisp, it is very tricky. Everything is intertwined.
<jmercouris>
but let's say we could, do you still think it would be very unlikely?
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<beach>
I have not thought about it for some time. When I realized I was unable to write code using only a subset of the language, it became impossible for me to imagine starting with a small subset and building the rest from there.
<jmercouris>
I am just thinking about it from a porting perspective, that's really why I am curious
<oni-on-ion>
jmer is couris. =P
<jmercouris>
I did read about clasp a b c intermediate languages
<beach>
jmercouris: What kind of porting do you mean?
<jmercouris>
I mean allowing CL to be compiled by different compilers
<jmercouris>
as we had discussed yesterday, compiling a CL implementation using Potato lang
<beach>
I saw it, yes.
<jmercouris>
and kind of minimizing that work by making it so you only have to make a very small amount of Potato lang functions to get everything started
<samsepi01>
When using SBCL timers, I get messages like "WARNING: Starting a poll (2) without a timeout while interrupts are disabled." I can’t understand what am I doing wrong?
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<jmercouris>
that's why I am so hung up on figuring out how to reduce the amount of work you would have to do in Potato lang to get started
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<beach>
jmercouris: I have no idea why you would want that. Why not generate native code directly?
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<_death>
sounds like you want a retargetable compiler
<jmercouris>
beach: whether you are generating the code or writing it by hand, there is an amount of work in making your CL code compile via the Potato lang compiler
<jmercouris>
_death: that sounds correct based on my knowledge of words, but I don't know exactly what that is
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<beach>
jmercouris: I don't see why the Potato compiler would be required at all.
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<jmercouris>
beach: let's say you wanted to make your own version of ABCL, but instead of that it is PCL, potato common lisp
<jmercouris>
wouldn't you need the Potato compiler to get started?
<jmercouris>
maybe I'm not being clear, I'm not talking about compiling CL via Potato lang
<jmercouris>
I'm talking about using Potato lang to build a CL
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<beach>
jmercouris: So you want to take an existing Common Lisp system written in some language L1 (which i not Common Lisp), and you want to have it written in a language L2 instead (which is also not Common Lisp). Is that it?
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<jmercouris>
No, let me try toe xplain again
<jmercouris>
We have a language X
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<jmercouris>
We have a compiler Y
<jmercouris>
I want to know how I can write code in Y language to compile X language with the smallest amount of work
<jmercouris>
after the initial compilation/bootstrapping, of course I could use X language to recompile X language
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<beach>
But what I am trying to tell you is that you don't need the initial step.
<jmercouris>
This is something I've never understood
<beach>
SICL is written entirely in Common Lisp.
<jmercouris>
you said something like that two years ago as well I believe
<jmercouris>
I still don't understand how you could do that without an initial step
<beach>
I use an existing Common Lisp system to execute the code.
<jmercouris>
Well, someone at some point must have done that initial step then
<beach>
Rather than some other language which would be much less convenient.
<beach>
I don't care how we arrived at the current situation, but it is there, and I can take advantage of it.
<jmercouris>
OK
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<jmercouris>
are there any advantages to bootstrapping with Potato lang?
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<jmercouris>
could we potentially build some sort of interop with Potato lang by using its compiler?
<beach>
That may be true.
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<jmercouris>
What really got me thinking about this was Clasp
<jmercouris>
I've been thinking and thinking about it, and I was wondering why there is so much C++ code
<pjb>
jmercouris: the only reason you may have to do bootstrapping, is if you're lost on Mars, can't communicate with Earth, and have built a new computer from scratch.
<jmercouris>
I'm sure it is necessary, but I'm wondering exactly *how much* is necessary
<pjb>
(there's a lot of sand on Mars, I hear).
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<beach>
jmercouris: Mainly because drmeister "lives and breathes C++" as he put it himself.
<jmercouris>
what about when people make new instruction sets and processors?
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<jmercouris>
don't they have to write new C compilers and bootstrap all over again?
<beach>
jmercouris: You cross compile.
<pjb>
jmercouris: you can cross-compile!
<jmercouris>
How does cross compilation work?
<beach>
You run on one computer and you generate code for a different one.
<beach>
So all you need to do is modify the code generator.
<pjb>
Already in the 60s, people DID NOT bootstrap anymore. At IBM, they implemented emulators of new computers to be able to develop the software with old computers for the new computer before the hardware was ready. Bootstrapping is so '40s!
<jmercouris>
11
<jmercouris>
that's hilarious
<jmercouris>
"Bootstrapping is so '40s"
<jmercouris>
I do hear the term used quite frequently though
<_death>
pjb: potatos are also relevant there, if you believe The Martian ;)
<pjb>
Truth is, bootstrapping is intriguing and funny.
<oni-on-ion>
we used bootstraps on our kids in the 40s ?
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<jmercouris>
That's how we'd pull ourselves up every morning!
<jmercouris>
and walk uphill both ways to school
<oni-on-ion>
aha
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<oni-on-ion>
with medicine full of morphine cocaine and wiskey
<beach>
jmercouris: I call it "bootstrapping" in SICL, but it is not that kind of bootstrapping.
<jmercouris>
beach: what is it really doing then?
<beach>
jmercouris: I use an existing Common Lisp system to execute SICL code that generates (or will generate) native code.
<jmercouris>
in this context what is "native" code?
<jmercouris>
it often helps me to imagine a concrete example
<beach>
X86-64.
<jmercouris>
ah, okay I see
<jmercouris>
so you have not yet made the part that generates X86?
<beach>
Not yet.
<jmercouris>
I will be interested to see how that looks
<beach>
jmercouris: For something existing, you can look at Mezzano or even SBCL.
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<jmercouris>
Ah, right, Mezzano *must* do that since it runs on bare metal
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<pjb>
jmercouris: already, people implementing new compilers by bootstrapping nowadays cheat, since they use top-notch macOS systems to edit and debug their code. They should bootstrap it using a KIN-1 !!! http://oldcomputers.net/kim1.html
<beach>
jmercouris: There is a paper by Xof (= Krystof) about how SBCL is built.
<pjb>
s/KIN/KIM/
<beach>
jmercouris: The title is "SBCL, Sanely Bootstrappable Common Lisp".
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<beach>
jmercouris: My guess with respect to Common Lisp is that there is this idea that Common Lisp has to be created using some lower-level language, but that is not the case, of course.
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<beach>
jmercouris: Now, building a Common Lisp system is considerably harder than (say) writing a C compiler in C.
<beach>
Or, forget the "in C" even.
<Xach>
frodef's assembler was interesting to read
<beach>
jmercouris: The reason is that a C compiler is a simple file translator, whereas a Common Lisp system contains a complex graph of objects right from the start.
<jmercouris>
I found the paper
<Xach>
jmercouris: i found it helpful to understand that code to run on a machine is just a sequence of bits, and it's not hard to make a program in any language create a sequence of bits, either in memory on on disk. sometimes it's tricky to know what bits to put in what order, but they are all bits at the bottom.
<Xach>
this is also true of e.g. PNG files, or font files, or the X protocol, or PDFs, etc.
<jmercouris>
That's true, they are all indeed bits
<beach>
jmercouris: And, the best way of creating that graph is to execute code. And it is best if that code is Common Lisp code.
<jmercouris>
I never thought about the common denomenator
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<jmercouris>
Maybe one day I will try to write a CL in CL that compiles to x86 directly
<Xach>
so if the bits on x86 to test for zero and jump are 42, and on arm it's 31, it's not a big deal to make a compiler on x86 generate arm, as long as you configure it to produce the right bits.
<Xach>
the higher-level management of program meaning is one thing and generating the right bits is another.
<jmercouris>
Right, I was just thinking about stuff like RISC or something which is quite different than x86
<jmercouris>
I guess you could of course compose all of x86 using RISC
<Xach>
so there may be more or less bits to faithfully represent the intent to the machine
<jmercouris>
I bet it would be insanely difficult to formally prove that they are computionally equivalent
<jmercouris>
I did study some formal verification in graduate school, I ended up leaving the class feeling like it was a toy that could never really be used
<mfiano>
Heh, Ultralisp sounds like the worst idea ever. Anyone use this?
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<puchacz>
have we got "threading and allocation torture test"?
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<mfiano>
Suppose I make a project on my github called "alexandria" and click the big blue button on ultralisp.org to add it. Everyone that updates their dist and loads a system that depends on it (nearly anything transitively), and they likely won't know that it secretly deletes / recursively until it's too late. I can't believe there is no review process and it updates every 5 minutes. Maybe I'm missing
<mfiano>
something, but these MITM-like attacks seem quite easy with this model.
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<borodust>
Xach: hi! anything new with PGP for quicklisp dists? i apologize in advance, if i missed some critical news regarding that feature
<borodust>
was super busy with work lately :/
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
mfiano: sounds like npm
<fiddlerwoaroof>
:)
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<luis>
Alexandria has a parse-ordinary-lambda-list. Is there a parse-macro-lambda-list somewhere?
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<Bike>
implementations probably has it, but it's not as easy to define, since the recursive structure means the multiple value return isn't enough
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<pjb>
luis: what about a (parse-lambda-list ll :macro)?