<pfdietz>
In place of writing custom versions of macros like COND or CASE, one can modify them on the fly using *MACROEXPAND-HOOK*.
<minion>
pfdietz, memo from phoe: the comments at https://gist.github.com/phoe/335fecfdc195bddd47ab0928b0e62e52 are good and outline errors in my reasoning. We're back to the drawing board, except now I wonder if commenting out the ANSI-TESTs that test the LOOP FINALLY variable values wouldn't be the best option if their value is to be treated as undefined.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Maybe. I would peep into the fast-websocket.compose:compose-frame sources since it is given an awful lot of NILs too, and I imagine one is supposed to be the data sent or something like that.
<Bike>
did you pass a simple vector instead of a byte vector?
<Bike>
to... something
<no-defun-allowed>
I think the issue is that fast-write-sequence was given NIL, which is an odd choice for a sequence to write.
<Bike>
oh. yeah. nevermind me
<Bike>
i would guess the problem is at a higher level than fast io, though
<Bike>
something's getting passed something wrong
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<Josh_2>
Bike: I didn't pass nuffin
<Bike>
surely you called a function at some point.
<Josh_2>
Well I obviously did
<Bike>
and probably passed it some arguments
<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, anything above send-identify could be messing up. Also a good excuse to (ql:update-all-dists) but I don't know if anything important has been updated recently.
<Josh_2>
But Im using websockets and I think that is where the problem comes from
<Josh_2>
no-defun-allowed: I will try that
<Bike>
without seeing the higher level calls it's hard to guess
<no-defun-allowed>
Actually, you probably don't need to, websocket-driver hasn't updated since then.
<Josh_2>
oof
<no-defun-allowed>
My next best guess is that the connection dropped?
<Josh_2>
Nope
<Josh_2>
It's possible but everytime this happens
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<Josh_2>
okay fixed it
<no-defun-allowed>
What's the most precise method of timing execution of a function? i-t-u-p-s looks too small.
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<buffergn0me>
no-defun-allowed: CCL has both rdtsc and clock_gettime. Does not look like SBCL does
<no-defun-allowed>
Right. I don't know how local-time gets the time, but it goes down to nanoseconds which will suffice.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Shinmera>
no-defun-allowed: SBCL has sb-ext:get-time-of-day on non-windowsoids.
<no-defun-allowed>
That's good to know too.
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<Shinmera>
Actually it also works on windows, I forgot
<Shinmera>
Just uses the non-posix api underneath
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<_Fremen_>
hello everyone
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<_Fremen_>
is lisp really the most powerful programming language?
<surrounder>
no
<beach>
Hello _Fremen_.
<beach>
_Fremen_: The question is meaningless since we have no single measure for "power" of a programming language.
<_Fremen_>
beach: hmm, I read a blog post years ago that supported this view.
<Shinmera>
_Fremen_: It is if you want it to be
<pjb>
The most powerful programming language is the one that is connected to nuclear missiles, that you can launch with (launch-missile (first (missile-list)) :target (coordinates _Fremen_)).
<Shinmera>
a lot of people want it to be, so a lot of blog posts go around saying so.
<pjb>
It's probably FORTRAN.
<_Fremen_>
how about this view? "lisp is the latin of programming languages, it may not help you talk to more people but it will help you be better at languages"
<_Fremen_>
I am sorry this is all subjective questions
<beach>
_Fremen_: There is a #lispcafe channel for that kind of stuff. Here, we stick to discussions about Common Lisp.
<heisig>
_Fremen_: Here is my take: A language can only ever be so powerful as the programmer that uses it. Lisp makes people better programmers. And it doesn't constrain good programmers. So that's something.
<_Fremen_>
beach: ok I will check it out :).
<_Fremen_>
thanks for your time
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<pjb>
_Fremen_: perligata is the latin of programming languages. Not that you cannot do the same in Lisp, with reader macros, but it's kind of antagonistic to lisp.
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<Shinmera>
I also started writing high-level documentation recently, so hopefully that'll be enough to convince some other people to work on it as well. https://shirakumo.github.io/alloy
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<shka__>
Shinmera: could use FAQ
<shka__>
for instance: "why alloy?"
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<Shinmera>
shka__: I don't think I've heard enough questions yet for any of them to be considered frequent
<flip214>
easye: will you be at sbcl20?
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<flip214>
UIOP had a spawn-program function, is that gone again? Or just not yet in QL, and I had the git version in use before?
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<Shinmera>
it's launch-program
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<flip214>
ah, right. thanks!
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<hjudt>
Shinmera: if you define :fix on the parent test in parachute, do the child tests inherit this? if yes, how exactly would it work?
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<Shinmera>
hjudt: let me check the source.
<Shinmera>
hjudt: Fixtures are only applied for the body test itself, not its children.
<Shinmera>
What is the behaviour you would like to have?
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<hjudt>
actually it was just for clarification. could have been that if i define fixtures for the parent test that it will also be applied to the body of the children.
<hjudt>
but that would probably not be such a good idea anyway.
<Shinmera>
yeah, I realise that that's ambiguous. I'll have a look through the docs to see if I can clarify it somewhere.
<hjudt>
because some tests might not need it
<Shinmera>
Colleen: look up parachute test and result evaluation
<Shinmera>
"The default evaluation procedure for a test itself is to simply call all the functions in the `tests` list in a `with-fixtures` environment."
<Shinmera>
I suppose that kind of states this.
<hjudt>
ah ok thanks
<hjudt>
maybe could you also clarify what you mean with this: "You can also tell it to hold all the symbols accessible to a certain package in place by giving it a package designator as a keyword, gensym, or string. Using with-fixtures, this can also be done locally. It expects an evaluated list of fixtures."
<Shinmera>
I'll add a clarifying note.
<Shinmera>
What part is unclear?
<hjudt>
in the example, where are you giving it a package designator as a keyword?
<hjudt>
ah sorry, i missed that that is a list ;-)
<Shinmera>
Ah, I only exemplify he latter part, not the package.
<hjudt>
hm. actually, no it is not clear. what exactly do you mean with this sentence?
<Shinmera>
Which sentence
<hjudt>
""You can also tell it to hold all the symbols accessible to a certain package in place by giving it a package designator as a keyword, gensym, or string."
<hjudt>
would it lock the complete package?
<hjudt>
i mean all symbols in this package?
<hjudt>
e.g. if i wrote :quicklisp, it would fix all symbols in the quicklisp package?
<Shinmera>
yes
<hjudt>
so i can simply use the package designator to protect the package against manipulation instead of listing each single symbol that i fear might be changed.
<Shinmera>
That's the idea
<Shinmera>
The way it's implemented might need to be changed though, now that I think about it
<Shinmera>
since it protects /all accessible symbols/, not just external ones
<Shinmera>
which might trigger package locks.
<hjudt>
using package designators would make the tests less vulnerable to implementation changes and perhaps less fragile in regard to such changes.
<Shinmera>
Okey, I pushed a new documentation page. Hopefully the wording is clearer now.
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<hjudt>
yes, thanks
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<Shinmera>
If you run into problems with the current package fixtures, let me know.
<Shinmera>
I haven't used them myself, so they're not, uh, tested well
<hjudt>
so far i have only tested fixing special variables using :fix. from my experience this worked good.
<hjudt>
it is a nice way to do tdd
<hjudt>
i still wonder whether it is better to specify single symbols instead of everything in the package.
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<ym>
Is there X Server implementation? Found only mention on ycombinator with broken link to github (repo deleted, IIUC).
<ym>
And seems like it's not X server.
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<Xach>
atomic is defined as "not a cons", so that covers it
<mouseghost>
well or that
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<mouseghost>
* (#'two . 2) doesnt work either .w. maybe i misunderstood something
<beach>
You did.
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<beach>
I think you should read a book on Common Lisp.
<beach>
If you already know some programming, try this one:
<beach>
minion: Please tell mouseghost about PCL.
<minion>
mouseghost: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<mouseghost>
ah yes this one
<mouseghost>
thanks
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<mouseghost>
but yay i did make it work (two . (2))
<Xach>
that is equivalent to and more commonly written as (two 2)
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<pjb>
Otherwise, indeed, lisp is nice to the users. If you really want to put parentheses around your function arguments, you can: (sin . (42)) #| --> -0.91652155 |#
<mouseghost>
why 42
<mouseghost>
oh, is it an answer to the ultimate question?
<pjb>
Yes. Also #b101010
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<mouseghost>
pjb, i was wondering what does it mean for a minute :D
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<mouseghost>
also #x2a :P
<mouseghost>
but thats not as pretty
<mouseghost>
BUUUT, if a = 0 then a-2=x, no?
<mouseghost>
sorry for going offtopic
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<tankf33der>
Parsed 20M nested brackets on PicoLisp, maximum i can do on 8GB laptop. Yeah.
<mouseghost>
dlowe, im not autojoined and i needed to ask a question about why doesnt this work so i asked here
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<dlowe>
mouseghost: sure, I'm not criticizing, just surprised
<mouseghost>
dlowe, im on both now
<LdBeth>
rua! #lisp
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<edgar-rft>
mouseghost has upgraded to #lisp now :-)
<mouseghost>
nah nah nah not yet
<mouseghost>
edgar-rft, i dont even use emacs yet so how could i have upgraded?
<LdBeth>
u don't have to use emacs to write lisp
<edgar-rft>
you only need emacs on #emacs, on #lisp it's sufficient to use lisp :-)
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<pjb>
in ccl, we're also limited to the maximum stack depth. I would have expected being able to go over 10 million, or actually, up to filling the RAM with conses, but no, the maximum is close to 8000: (flet ((depth (x) (loop while x sum 1 do (setf x (car x))))) (depth (read-from-string (format nil "~V@{(~}~:*~V@{)~}" 8000 nil)))) #| --> 7999 |#
<pjb>
Simply, the parser is recursive, so we are limited by the stack.
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<pfdietz>
I've found even in SBCL you don't want to use recursion to go down lists, because of stack space concerns. Going down car recursively isn't so much of a problem.
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<pjb>
In (((((…))))) it is.
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<mouseghost>
good cus im more of a vim person :E
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<flip214>
pjb: you could try to set the ulimit stack size for ccl; new threads should then get a stack that big.
<flip214>
mouseghost: for vim I'd suggest to look at either slimv or vlime (both are vim plugins)
<mouseghost>
fetched slimv already
<flip214>
right
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<mouseghost>
oh yeah its so cool :O just that it should be noted that it can have problems with dos endings. i had to change slime.el to unix endings
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<mouseghost>
probably cus im using plugin manager
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<jmercouris>
if someone were to ask you, why should they learn lisp, what would you say? I know many articles about this topic, I'm interested in short personal answers
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<oni-on-ion>
"when we develop our own Lisp, we are essentially on a highly egocentric endeavor: the quest for a language perfect for us and only for us, which may be found only if we gain a deep understanding of our true self, completely disregarding the outside world. Programming Lisp, and in Lisp, is thus a highly introspective journey."
<jmercouris>
Not sure if you are being facetious or not, hard to tell over text
<oni-on-ion>
"Instead, is more a philosophy of music, even more so a musical process: grabbing musical bits and pieces everywhere, and making a happy melting pot out of those influences, in a way which is specific to each Jazz musician." --- i think these are both from the free article "Lisp, Jazz, and Aikido"
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<LdBeth>
The cost of learning a new programming language is trivial —ldbeth
<dra>
jmercouris: Facetious answer from me: If they ask why they should, they shouldn't.
<dra>
jmercouris: Honest answer from me: To gain perspective.
<jmercouris>
dra: what kind of perspective?
<LdBeth>
I agree with the point that if they ask why they’re not prepared
<jmercouris>
"The cost of truly internalizing a new programming language is non-trivial" -jmercouris
<jmercouris>
I think saying that learning a new programming language is trivial is simply false
<LdBeth>
It’s just syntax, semantics, and design patterns
<jmercouris>
Yeah, and flying to the moon is just physics, gas, and some calculations
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<jmercouris>
anything can be trivialized and summed up in a fun little snippet
<oni-on-ion>
"moon landing" <- good compression!
<jmercouris>
please avoid saying things like that in the future as they can be heavily discouraging to newcomers
<LdBeth>
But once you’ve been to the moon it it very likely to Mars
<jmercouris>
What does that even mean? that doesn't make any sense as a response to what I've said
<jmercouris>
Imagine a new developer starting to learn a language, having some difficult and being told "hey, this is super easy", they'll conclude that it isn't for them and simply give up
<oni-on-ion>
about perspective, i think that "gaining" perspective here is not of what kind of perspective. but of gaining more of them (but can be said for learning any new thing)
<LdBeth>
Even languages intentionally designed to be hard to use follows some common patterns
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<dra>
jmercouris: oni-on-ion is right.
<jmercouris>
this is however a very general statement, and not specific to Lisp though
<LdBeth>
But it is hard to spot such a pattern by just using one or two languages
<LdBeth>
Thus I encourage people to try out different langs, not limited to lisp though
<dra>
jmercouris: Also true. I learned Ada for the same reason. But understanding Lisp seemed more rewarding.