<vsync>
anyone know how to bind the Enter key to anything in LispWorks on Windows?
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<ym>
Thanks.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<sindan>
I don't see any function to identify a property list, apart from testing whether all the odd-positioned elements are keywords.
<sindan>
would that be right?
<jackdaniel>
sure, why not?
<sindan>
and that the length is even
<jackdaniel>
list is a bunch of conses, so you have no guarantee that someone won't push to it
<jackdaniel>
if you want to enforce some structure you either believe your peers or you come up with a protocol treating object as a opaque entity
<sindan>
sure, that's not the problem, I'm the only one accessing it, just wondered if there was some builtin function I didn't know of, but I can do it myself.
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<sindan>
is there some convention against nil being a plist? in principle it looks like one, empty
<Shinmera>
you're asking the wrong question.
<Shinmera>
A plist can only be a plist by intent. You cannot determine if something is or is not a plist programmatically.
<Shinmera>
because there is no type that can give you this information.
<Shinmera>
you could box a list in a structure and give that a type, thus carrying that type information somewhere, but then you're just shifting the question of whether it really has a plist or not to wherever that box is created.
<Shinmera>
So I can only ask why you want to know if something is a plist
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<sindan>
therefore I'm asking about some social consensus. I know there is not a specific plist type. I want to duck-type identify it because I have some flexible data structures.
<Shinmera>
The short answer is you can't, and you shouldn't. Be stricter about your data structures instead to avoid headaches like these.
<sindan>
Nah, I would be using other languages if I wanted the compiler to punish me
<Shinmera>
I don't think the compiler was mentioned anywhere at all
<scymtym>
the question is whether you want (check-type thing plist) (can be done) or (my-type-of thing) => 'plist (cannot be done in a robust way)
<sindan>
Shinmera, compiler = expression to denote strong type system, okay?
<Shinmera>
I'm not talking about strong typing either. I'm talking about building robust software.
<sindan>
Well, I know full well that it's shaky, that's the reason I asked, in case anyone had wondered about the same thing. I don't need any of this to be robust.
<sindan>
Shinmera, and, just wondering, how do you build robust software without strong typing anyway?
<sindan>
scymtym, thanks, I'll have a look
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<Shinmera>
sindan: The choice I made when I came across it was to not allow plists at all.
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<Shinmera>
sindan: By designing good protocols, erroring early, testing well, etc. Same as everywhere else.
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<scymtym>
a CL programmer is the wrong person to ask about mitigating absence of strong typing in any case
<sindan>
scymtym, that's exactly what I have done, except that instead of a loop I use (every #'keyword (plist-keys l)) doing what the loop does anyway
<sindan>
#'keywordp
<White_Flame>
CL is pretty strongly typed
<scymtym>
and consing a list of keys, but yes, semantically
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<sindan>
scymtym, very much agree, but I happen to be playing in CL so I came here to ask :)
<White_Flame>
it's just that "plist" is not a type ;)
<White_Flame>
it's like asking if a string is a username or a machine name
<White_Flame>
unless you actually put that information somewhere, it doesn't exist
<sindan>
White_Flame, therefore my use of the expression "social consensus"
<sindan>
or something like that; nil in CL is a bunch of disastrous abstraction-breaking things anyway.
<White_Flame>
btw, how would NIL not be a plist? it doesn't violate any plist protocol. It's an empty plist. And empty alist. And empty list. And symbol :-P
<White_Flame>
I think you're asking if people always keep plists stuffed with at least 1 dummy key/value pair to somehow keep its plistness? Not that I'm aware of
<sindan>
White_Flame, no, I was not asking that. That's butt ugly. Next thing you're gonna ask me is if I put the type name in the variables' names?
<White_Flame>
well, how else would you not have NIL as a plist?
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<White_Flame>
the original question doesn't leave much room for alternatives
<sindan>
But I said this from the beginning: I said "in principle, it looks like one, empty"
<White_Flame>
still, what would any alternative be?
<White_Flame>
(also, looking above that, there's zero requirement that plist keys be keywordp_
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<sindan>
I thought it was clear I was asking about some gotchas down the line, and that only those who had tried that would respond. Instead I got replies telling me what I already knew: that it's impossible to decide (of course, trying to assign a type to nil is silly), and that it looks like one, which I said.
<Shinmera>
I did try, and I did tell you what I ended up doing, too.
<thijso>
I wonder where you got the idea that writing robust software has anything at all to do with strong typing, or any typing at all...
<White_Flame>
you asked if it was convention to not consider NIL as a plist.
<White_Flame>
that's ... hard to unpack what it would mean if it weren't considered one
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<sindan>
White_Flame, that was also part of the question: the question could have been rephrased like: "to anyone who has wondered about this, how did you solve it and were there any gotchas?"
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<White_Flame>
(solve what, exactly?)
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<sindan>
Just forget it.
<White_Flame>
(and if the "what" is distinguishing it, then that's what all the other answers were already)
<White_Flame>
well, just trying to get at the root of the question. that's fine
<sindan>
I find it impossible to understand that you still have not understood what is the root of the question. What information ae you missing anyway?
<White_Flame>
if you're asking if something goes one way or another, but one of the ways seems undefinable, the information I'm missing is what examples have you seen that make you question that other direction, as it doesn't seem possible
<White_Flame>
unless, as I posited above, you were asking if by "nil is not considered a plist", then an empty plist would have to be stuffed with a dummy entry or something
<sindan>
Well, the first part of your "if" is false. And you suppose way too much about what I'm asking.
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<White_Flame>
well, then I consider the question as worded to be ununderstandable :-P
<sindan>
Then ask about what I mean, instead of your first intervention "plist is not a type". When did I say that? It didn't help; you also repeat "nil looks like a plist", which is also information made clear in my question. If you can't process "has anyone wondering about this (and deciding it is or it is not a plist) found any problems afterwards", then I cannot explain it in a more simple way.
<White_Flame>
to be clear, I jumped in when a claim that CL was not strongly typed was made, and then tied it back to the topic
<sindan>
ok :)
<White_Flame>
and of course, people were wondering about "this" and telling you why it doesn't really exist
<White_Flame>
either nil is a plist, or an empty plist is not nil. Those are really the only 2 choices by definition
<White_Flame>
(or at least the two simplest branches to take)
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<sindan>
Nah, don't apply logic to this. As I also said, nil in CL breaks abstractions right and left
<scymtym>
White_Flame: i'm not sure which claim you are referring to. i said a CL programmer was the wrong person to ask /because/ CL is strongly typed
<White_Flame>
scymtym: ah, ok
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<pjb>
beach: so nested packages provide more than local package names or nicknames or relative packages.
<pjb>
the question would rather be what set of feature we would need or want.
<pjb>
In that comment, I argue that structure in the naming scheme is enough, and that we wouldn't need or want recursive structure in packages themselves.
<pjb>
But without implementations and experiments we don't really know.
<White_Flame>
any heirarchy can alwys be implemented as pointers into a flat space
<White_Flame>
so I'm not sure that truly makes a distinction
<pjb>
Well the first difference would be that (delete-package "FOO") would delete also FOO.BAR and all other structurally nested package.
<pjb>
while with a flat structure, it would just delete "FOO" and keep "FOO.BAR" etc.
<White_Flame>
yep
<pjb>
So the question is what behavior is better?
<White_Flame>
I don't think it's necessarily "better", but what fits the current language requirements being implemented
<pjb>
Same with renaming. If we rename "FOO" to "QUUX", will that also rename "FOO.BAR" to "QUUX.BAR" This would seem a good idea, in the case of renaming.
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<pjb>
Indeed, working only on the names is the lightest change on existing CL.
<hortiel>
compared to python C is quite verbose, but what about when compared to common lisp
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<hortiel>
I see some examples on benchmarks debian site, and lisp code too seems big enough?
<pjb>
hortiel: I find C is about 30x more verbose than lisp.
<White_Flame>
lisp doest not have syntax-level shortcuts for every little thing, so small code seems bigger in lisp than other langauges with lots of syntax
<White_Flame>
but big code is much smaller in lisp
<hortiel>
what syntax-level shortcuts are you talking about
<White_Flame>
a[2] vs (aref a 2), or obj.slot vs (type-slot obj)
<pjb>
a++ = (incf a)
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<pjb>
stuff like that.
<White_Flame>
CL is much more regular, which really really lends well to metaprogramming
<pjb>
That said, with reader macros and macros, you can design a DSL that let you write very concise code.
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<hortiel>
it also has sig-nificantly lower variability, whichtranslates into reduced project risk. ---what variability is mentioned here
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<_death>
it also helps to lower the threshold of abstraction, for example by obeying the law of demeter.. (foo-bar (quux-foo quux)) can be abstracted so you'll have (quux-bar quux).. other languages may tempt you to leave it as quux.foo.bar because it's not too much to type, but in the big you pay for this
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<pjb>
hortiel: take 10 programmers, have them implement the same thing. You will get programming times, bug counts, program size, program speed that will vary a lot If they write all in lisp, these variations will be reduced. The variability is reduced.
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<beach>
hortiel: Do you have a link for that quotation?
<beach>
Stuff like that is hard to compare because it is hard to measure, and it is rare (probably because it is too costly) to see any scientifically significant investigation into differences between different programming languages.
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<dlowe>
People are so fussy about proofs and comparisons between languages. Just go with what you like. Let time sort it out.
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<beach>
Sort of. When I give talks to industry, I cite the article by Hudak and Jones, not because of their claim that Haskell is best, but because I want to point out that the choice of programming language for a project is not to be taken lightly, because it can have a huge impact on the total cost of the project.
<beach>
Whereas in most cases, the choice is made because of some aspect that does not mean much to the final cost, like "all our programmers already know language X and none of them know language Y".
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<dlowe>
in my experience, social and management factors make so much more of a difference that differences due to technical decisions (as long as they are ballpark-appropriate) are just statistical noise
<beach>
Interesting.
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<ecraven>
is there a way to return a result in slime so that it will be a clickable link to open a file?
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<_death>
check out swank-presentations.lisp, it has a not-too-developed way to compute the menu (on right click).. it could be redesigned to be properly extensible, say in a way similar to pprint-dispatch
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<aeth>
pjb: On 30x more verbose... C is kind of the worst case in verbosity (not counting assembly or esolangs) because of its tiny standard library. Updates have added boolean and complex, but not very many things. And a lot of what C offers (e.g. with strings) can't really be used.
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<aeth>
Of course, most languages have to rely on updates to the standard to reduce verbosity...
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<aeth>
Oh, requiring a separate .h doesn't help C, either.
<beach>
Something that was not mentioned the other day, but that pjb usually points out, is that it is really awkward to use a language without automatic memory management for functional programming. Because instead of writing (say, in C) f(g(x)), you often have to write {.. temp = g(x>); f(temp); free(temp);} which makes the program more verbose and harder to understand.
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<beach>
s/>// of course.
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<aeth>
At least in C++, afaik, that's usually only an issue when it's of variable or unknown-at-compile-time size and they try to stack allocate the rest (which has its own problems... like having to know when to &foo and when to *foo and when to (*foo) etc.).
<pjb>
Happily, there's boehm gc :-)
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<aeth>
(because now your function foo(x) is foo(x) if it's variable size and foo(&x) if it's fixed size, assuming you want to avoid that delete in C++)
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<aeth>
(assuming it's a small enough fixed size to not be heap allocated)
<beach>
pjb: That is what I recommend using in my document "Modular C", which contains recommendations on what to do when you are forced to use C for writing applications.
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<beach>
That document is of course mostly obsolete these days. It was written before Java became widely used.
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<aeth>
I have never tried to do FP in C, although it's somewhat amusing to try to do so in C++ because they clearly want you to try in C++11/C++14/C++17 with things like lambda and transform_reduce (map reduce).
<aeth>
Stuff like map-into are, afaik, mostly impossible because the focus is on threading (more pmap than map) and because you usually get a different type out than you put in.
<aeth>
For a lot of reasons, there's a lot more thinking involved than to do the same task in CL, and that probably matters more than verbosity or lack of verbosity.
<aeth>
(And of course, everything has to be deleted.)
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<LdBeth>
You can use higher order macro for polymorphism
<LdBeth>
in higher order programming
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<LdBeth>
It is neat that they can share a similar interface with regular functions if properly designed
<aeth>
LdBeth: In C? But you'd basically have to build up an entire sublanguage, in hard-to-write library form.
<LdBeth>
aeth: it could be easier to use some existed language that generates C code
<jackdaniel>
newest C standard has generic functions (sadly realized with preprocessor macros), I have a generator written in ecl somewhere
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<klm2is>
I'm in my REPL, I'm using CLOS. How would you go about changing a generic function to increase the number of arguments? Remove the existing methods somehow and call defgeneric again? or just fmakunbound?
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<beach>
It may depend on the implementation. You can try calling defgeneric again.
<beach>
FMAKUNBOUND is always safe.
<klm2is>
thanks
<klm2is>
clhs says "If a defgeneric form is evaluated and some methods for that generic function have lambda lists that are not congruent with that given in the defgeneric form, an error is signaled."
<beach>
Yes, but your implementation may have a restart to fix things up for you.
<beach>
I recall having seen a "remove all the methods" restart in SBCL.
<klm2is>
Thanks, I think I need to use fmakunbound to be completely safe.
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<klm2is>
(using allegro cl - sorry)
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
What's mean "safe"?
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<beach>
It means to make sure it works in every Common Lisp implementation.
<klm2is>
There's just something odd going on with the warnings I'm getting in ACL after I've removed the relevant methods. It's allegro specific and I think it's against the rules to talk allegro in here.
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<beach>
It depends on the volume I guess.
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<beach>
klm2is: How do you remove the methods?
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<klm2is>
well like you said about SBCL, the implementation is providing this restart.
<beach>
Ah, I see.
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
beach; "safe" means it works in every implementation CL?
<klm2is>
so I choose that option, and then it still doesn't work the way I want it to.
<beach>
asdf_asdf_asdf: That is what I think klm2is meant in this particular case. Don't generalize.
<beach>
klm2is: I guess you can loop over all methods, and call remove-method on each one.
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
beach. Thanks it's according to context.
<beach>
asdf_asdf_asdf: The Common Lisp HyperSpec glossary has an entry on "safe" that applies to certain situations.
<beach>
But I don't think that's what klm2is meant this time.
<klm2is>
If you call defgeneric with the purpose of changing the arglist, it will work on some implementations if there is a restart, but it is not guaranteed to work. And in fact it is explicitly supposed to be an error.
<klm2is>
That's the gist of it
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<borodust>
hello namosca, whatsup?
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<namosca>
borodust: fine
<namosca>
borodust: how is russia?
<Oladon_work>
:O borodust is a shpeon?!
<Oladon_work>
shpion*
<borodust>
namosca: that's quite an offtopic, but it still is there beint itself ;p
<borodust>
*being
<namosca>
borodust: ochen hara cho
<namosca>
borodust: sorry if i spelt it wrong hehe
<Oladon_work>
lol
<Oladon_work>
borodust: ti tayni agent?
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<borodust>
i swear it wasn't me ;)
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<remexre>
asdf_asdf_asdf: Other than the dislike of appimage by nix people, I'm not sure what there was relevant -- was there something specific you wanted to indicate?
<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Ask a question still/yet others users, please.
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<Xach>
asdf_asdf_asdf: stop answering questions with nonsense.
<Xach>
asdf_asdf_asdf: if you don't know, don't write anything.
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<pjb>
asdf_asdf_asdf: it is often better to use apropos with the second argument (like you should always use require with the second argument): (apropos "VECTOR" "CL")
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<asdf_asdf_asdf>
Thanks. Thanks also for "second argument". I tried help user above.